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Thread: Taylors kerosene stove VS propane ?

  1. #36
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    I belive that both propane and natural gas have an additive that gives it that characteristic rotten onion smell (not at all like the rotten egg smell of methane).
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  2. #37
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    Have used both and have reservations with both -
    - LPG/Propane can be dangerous in confined spaces: lit a caravan stove many years ago and blew my eyebrows off and my 3 year old daughter out the door - slow, undetected leak.
    - Taylors type kero/parraffin, can be real messy and fiddly to start. And they can soot, I've done it!!

    If I was living aboard and was serious about food and cooking I would be looking at the Wallas diesel stoves. No need for additional fuel scource, electronic ignition, low fuel consumption, very easily cleaned ceramic cooktops, gimballing option and venting for both combustion air intake and exhaust. www.wallas.fi I undrestand that they are pricey but then quality is never cheap !

    Lion

  3. #38
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    Lion, I take these are not the traditional diesel stoves with the drip burners (?) and 12 or 24 volt force draft that some require and that take a long time to heat up?
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  4. #39
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    Originally posted by Lion:
    Have used both and have reservations with both -
    - LPG/Propane can be dangerous in confined spaces: lit a caravan stove many years ago and blew my eyebrows off and my 3 year old daughter out the door - slow, undetected leak.
    - Taylors type kero/parraffin, can be real messy and fiddly to start. And they can soot, I've done it!!
    Lion
    And if there's ever an accident, you can't see alcohol flames.

    For BTU power per weight, nothing beats gasoline, still the standard for tent heaters within US Army Alaska in the form of the Yukon Stove.

    But gasoline requires a stack and those fumes, just like propane, easily kill in a slight mishap. That's why many of us used private kerosene Aladdins burning aviation JP4. Close to the BTUs w/o the need for a stack or an all-night fire watch.

  5. #40
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    dont know about availability of Metho in the US but to buy Metho (in Australia) was AUS$2.50 per liter (75 cents US) available in every supermarket and hardware store
    I want to know where you get your money changed At todays rates $2.50AUD is $1.75USD.

    The deal with alcohol vs kero/diesel is that it only has about half the specific energy, ie it takes twice as much to do the same thing. On the up side you can make it yourself on a driftwood fire on the beach, and as a byproduct can produce a rather nice tipple
    Mmm - The still's a bubblin' and there's oak chips toasting in my kitchen as I'm typing. I wouldn't make a boat out of that stuff but it sure does make a nice bourbon.

    The stove that I find most interesting is the Wallas catalytic kero/diesel thingies. No flame at all, and very efficient if their website can be believed. I've never found anyone that uses them though, and they don't have a dealer here in AU.

    [ 10-20-2003, 03:06 AM: Message edited by: Aramas ]

  6. #41
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    Yeah - Aramas, that exchange rate was in 1999 - I think the Aussie dollar was what...45cents at that stage to the US dollar! Like I said, Aussies have their Ethanol/Methanol industry from the sugar cane to thank for cheap fuel.

    Here is the Wallis 95 DP in comparison with the Origo 3000 - (the two burner models). I find their out-puts similar - Wallis looks more 'modern'.

    Wallas 95DP

    Power 900-1800W
    Fuel Consumption 0,09-0,18 l/h

    Origo 3000

    Approx. 2000W (7000 BTU/burner)
    Burning Time Approx. 4.5h/burner, max. powebr /> Fuel capacity 1.2 litres

    To quote from above,

    'You cant see alcohol flames'.

    But you can feel the heat, I could see a blue flame - you can put-out accidents with a tea-towl/cloth.

    But, to also quote from above,

    'None of these liquid fuels will blow up so the potential accidents happen slowly enough that they can be dealt with with common sense. So, if treated carefully, alcohol in a remote pressure tank with a shut off valve at the tank, works great and is much safer than propane and, in my albeit limited experience, is less smelly than Kero or Diesel.'

    In my experience, unpresurised tanks using the 'vapourising through pre-heating method' also work well.

    [ 10-20-2003, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

  7. #42
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    Lightbulb

    Let me explain why I don't like propane/butane on a boat. If any leaks occur, the propane/butane fumes will collect in the bilge because they're heavier than air. In The Netherlands, liquid gas on a boat is fine, as long as the containers are stored outside the cabin and the storage bin vents overboard.

    When camping with our tent, we use a propane two-burner stove outside. Since it is a level, well-vented space (despite being under the tent overhangs), we haven't had any problems.

    Still, every now and then there are stories of tents/caravans burned down because of gas leaks.

    Fire on a boat is the most dangerous hazard, despite the surrounding water. Hence my reluctance towards liquid gas.

    Greets, Leon Steyns.

  8. #43
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    I'm interested in the Wallas stoves, also. We had a thread in here a couple of months ago.

    This is the one that I want:



    It burns paraffin (kerosene, I think), and vents to the outside. And draws combustion air from the outside, too. I don't want any combustion fumes in the very small space that will be the interior of my boat. I've heard they are expensive but I haven't looked for a price for this model (the 800) yet.

    Steven

  9. #44
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    Oh yeah, there is also an optional blower/cover so it can act as a heater!



    Steven

  10. #45
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    Besides the Taylors 030 is there any other stove that really looks the part for an early 20th gaff cutter ? ( The Shipmate is great but burning wood in this case is not.)
    Also, Is the Taylors cast iron stove the same technology as the current ones and can anyone advise on how I could see a photo of one.

  11. #46
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    The folks over on the yahoo mailing list "MicroCruising" have been chatting up a storm about this: http://www.zodi.com/combo.html

    Not remotely traditional, but a very interesting idea! Cabin warmer, lantern, cookstove, water heater and hair drier in one!

    [ 10-20-2003, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  12. #47
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    Meerkat,
    I can't take myself seriously after seeing a product like that ! Please ! Don't show me anything else lik that ! We're salty ! We revel in inconvenience ! This is The Wooden Boat Forum ! WOODEN BOAT !

    Steve

  13. #48
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    Originally posted by stephen m:
    Besides the Taylors 030 is there any other stove that really looks the part for an early 20th gaff cutter ? .
    The 030 is the top of the range, two burner top, one burner oven. The oven will get hot enough to bake bread or melt lead.
    Less expensive is a two burner top plus hot box oven (no burner but takes it's heat from the top burners, or a two burner without oven for simple two pot cooking.
    Any will look the part and do the job.

    IanW.

  14. #49
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    Hi, Stephen,
    There was a thread on the YBW practical site about a year ago with lots of pros and cons, plus tips for using Taylors. Should be able to find it by copying and pasting this:
    http://www.ybw.com/cgi-bin/forums/sh...&Limit=25&Old= allposts&Main=263029
    (must be an easier way but I'm computerally challenged...)
    Richard

  15. #50
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    Here's one way to fix that link...

    http://makeashorterlink.com/?D26A32946

    Try that one out. I cobbled it back together

    --T

  16. #51
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    Thanks Timothy and Richard,
    A lot of information there !

    Steve

  17. #52
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    Wow, well-done and thanks Timothy. I shall now gracefully retire back to the stone age where I seem to belong. Anytime you need a flint bound into a cleft stick, let me know. Should be able to manage that!
    Richard

  18. #53
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    Originally posted by RichardBlake:
    Wow, well-done and thanks Timothy. I shall now gracefully retire back to the stone age where I seem to belong. Anytime you need a flint bound into a cleft stick, let me know. Should be able to manage that!
    Richard
    Hey! I might need that to get out that riven timber for my keel...

    Just go here:

    http://www.makeashorterlink.com/

    copy/paste and you get a new short link. Its a nice service.

    --T

  19. #54
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    Im really rather suprised at the supposed difficulty of lighting kero stoves.I've never owned anything as delightful as a Taylors ,though I would dearly love one, I have however used Primus type stoves for the last 40 years or so. Not really difficult at all with a little bit of timing.A useful tip is to do your preheating bypassing the heating cup and its pool of metho,(thats probably the hardest thing to use aboard,pouring metho , even from a squeeze bottle can be messy).I suggest a twisted wire clip with a 4" twisted wire handle so shaped as to fit around the stem just above the metho trough.The working end has an absorbant woolly fibre mop( I don't remember what I used,sorry) which is dipped into the jar of meths, slipped into place and lit.No pouring and much quicker.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  20. #55
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    Then, there's always the generator - in my case, sufficiently "quirky" to fit with a wooden boat - driven by a Lister STW2 - but it boils the kettle in about 90 seconds - and powers the nuclear zapper for other non-culinary delights.

    I'm going to upgrade from a 500W inverter to an 1800W or larger sometime soon, so that I can just use the solar panel / battery setup for coffee and food heating.

    That said, at present I'm building the box for 2 propane bottles to run a 4 burner SMEV stove / griller / oven combo and a rail mounted barbecue. Yes, I'm concerned about the possibility of a propane leak and I'm going to run a couple of 12 volt computer fans (current draw 0.13 amps each) drawing from low in the bilge.

    Ian

  21. #56
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    I would think you would want a spark proof motor, not a computer fan.

  22. #57
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    Unhappy

    Steve,
    As an old time Marine Sales Engineer for a major international oil coompany, I learned that there is a spectrum of products called "the mid barrel", all distilled products in general,from dirty diesel, up to I suppose oderless lamp
    oil. Some jet fuels are in this range but there are still some, for those that operate in sub zero temperatures that have a very low flash point, and would be dangerously un-suitable, like using gasoline and could blow you and your boat up, so when buying that gallon of JP whatever number, at the airfield fuel station, please be sure you don't get the hot stuff.
    From a practical stand point, I have been using paint thinner {mineral spirits} to clean paint brushes, fuel my anchor light and fuel a pressurized kerosine (Primus) type stove for over 30 years. This product is more readily available, packaged in, now plastic,one gallons, burns clean, and is almost oderless. In this modern world just go to any paint, hardware, or marine store and there it is. With the amount being used the price is not too important, but availability and convenience are, and because of it's intended use the flash point is safly high. I have suggested this over the years to various boating friends, and those that have tried it seem to continue using it, altho some buy the same product with a little red color to it, by the quart, for more thasn the price of a gallon of "mineral spirits", I think it's a wife kind of thing. Happy Cooking
    cbob
    Help!

  23. #58
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    Dear cbob,
    It seems as though Flash Point should be at the center of any conversation about kero fuel for boat stoves.
    Thank you for bringing that up ! That is yet another thing I had not thought about . What should the Flash Point be for stove fuel ? That is to say between what and what ? A assume there are specs for various keros or anything flamable. How would one find out that data ?
    I'm also not going to be useing enough stove fuel to make its cost a major factor in what I choose to use.
    But at the end of the day, assuming one is willing to go to the airport or do what ever they must to get the best fuel...... What is it ?
    By the way,
    It's possible you saved someones life today !
    Thank you

    Steve

  24. #59
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    "Stove fuel" (Colman's) is white (unleaded, no performance additives, water-clear) gas. Much lower flash point than any kerosene, including standard commercial jet fuel, I believe. Also evaporates/generates vapor faster - boom! Military jet fuels might be the ones to worry about flash points with, but those aren't usually available at the local airport

    Aviation gas (which is gas used in piston engined aircraft, not JP4 kerosene for jets) is something to keep far away from in a boat, unless you're a hydrofoil or something! That stuff needs very very little excuse to go WOOSH!.

    One consideration when using jet fuels is that they have additives for such problems as low temperature viscosity (it's COLD at 30,000'!) and bacterial (or was it algae?) growth in fuel tanks (no joke - I was surprised when I learned about it!).

    Corrected per ACB's note that gas has a lower flash point, not higher.

    [ 10-24-2003, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  25. #60
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    I believe that you meant to write " much lower flashpoint "

    The higher the flashpoint, the less readily inflammable the substance is.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  26. #61
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    If it ain't rusty and smoking, it ain't real, eh?

  27. #62
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    Thanks Andrew; fixed it.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  28. #63
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    I used a brass SEVA 123 for more than 20 years while elk hunting and camping. It never failed me. It passed thru my mind that I might use it in my 23' sailboat. However, I decided it was far to dangerous and I have not yet found a supplier for white gas here in Brazil. Maybe unleaded straight from the pump would work?????
    There is also another little brass camp stove that my brother had good luck with that burns almost anything. Here is a site with reviews for the Optimus No. 8R Hunter . http://www.outdoorreview.com/Stoves/...7_2959crx.aspx
    I know my 123 heats like a blowtorch and according to the reviews so does the 8R Hunter. Using diesel fuel it might be a safe option for someone with smaller needs?
    BTW This entire thread has me a little upset! I have between 1,500 and 2,000 man hours of work on my boat and 8 days away from launch. I can't enter the boat without thinking how nice it would be to have a Taylor's instead of the new stainless propane unit I just installed.
    Gerald Niffenegger

  29. #64
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    8 days away from launch
    Good going! I hope you'll slip us some photos. Good luck on the big day [img]smile.gif[/img]

  30. #65
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    Gerald, I've had the Svea 123 for twenty years, also. I once heard that you could burn unleaded gas in it and one time I forgot to bring white gas on an overnight hike so I stopped at a gas station and bought a little 'high test'. Big mistake! That little stove just about turned into a jet engine! It melted the bottom of the pot and the whole tank of fuel, that usually lasts an hour, was burned up in 5 minutes! And the whole stove was filty dirty afterward. I ended up buying the rebuild kit and replacing all the innards of the stove. Maybe if I got 'regular' instead of 'premium' unleaded?

    8 days away? Fantastic! Keep us posted.

    Steven

  31. #66
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    Thought I would do some research.
    The following Q's and A's are the result of a conversation with a represenitive of Taylors in the UK yesterday:
    Q. What is the best fuel for your stoves?
    A. We recommend lamp oil quality kero. It's very highly refined. It's ment for reading which requires a white light. It's used in Aladdin lamps and All the sulfer is out.
    Q. Brand?
    A.We recommend Calo Oils. (in the UK) They can answer your questions about Flash Points and anything else about fuel. They can be reached at: 0 1744833535 ( In the US drop the 0 and add 0 11 44)
    Q. What is the best way to light the stove?
    A. We use a torch. (Some discussion about various torches....) His comment: Not hot enough for welding!
    Q. how long dose it take?
    A. 1 1/2 -2 min with a torch, 3 min with alcohol.
    Q. What about gel .
    A. gel is least efficient. It leaves a sticky residue in the pre heat cup and because it is metholated (sp?) spirits it burns much cooler so it takes longer.
    He mentioned that the burners work best at mid or high range. They tend to carbon up if you try to simmer.
    Q. Is the balance jet necessary and what dose it do?
    A. It will work without the balance jet until it begins to pulse or surge which the jet prevents. It can actually go out.
    Q. Will the lack of the ballance jet cause it to flair up?
    A. No
    He says : Normal burners have 4 legs however at a point there was a 2 leg burner. During that time the balance jet was done away with and they put gauze in the burner.
    Q. When did you stop making the cast iron model?
    A. The 1890's

  32. #67
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    I read several more reports about the SVEA 123 and one fella claims to use only 89 octane gas direct from the pump. As I put the final coat of varnish on the mast today I was still laughing about the thought of high octane in a 123. The little fella makes a scary sound with Coleman fuel!
    This tread has me thinking about changing over to something safer. Maybe doing a little machine work and change the propane heads over to a MSR or Optimus burners as shown in this site:
    http://www.backcountry-equipment.com..._overview.html
    Would only set me back about $70 a head and would be set up to burn almost any fuel. Not a Taylor but sure as heck cheaper!
    Thanks to all of you that commented here you may have saved a life. It sure got me off my hind end and yesterday I installed a bilge fan that almost sucks the sides of the boat in!
    Gerald

  33. #68
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    a bilge fan that almost sucks the sides of the boat in!
    ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  34. #69
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    BTW, you do know they have propane (and Carbon MOnoxide) detectors for boats don't you? Most modern marine propane appliances have Monoxide dectors with auto-shutoff I think.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  35. #70
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    Thanks Meer. My son is coming down for a visit in Feb. and is bringing some detection units. I was going to have him bring detectors from Home Depot. Someone on the forum pointed out that the non boat units might not stand up to salt air?
    On my smaller boat I always shut the gas off every time I use the stove and this boat is set up the same way. Stuff happens and there is an outside chance there could be a leak inside the stainless box and then the stainless box leaks and then the blower isn't as strong as I thought! That Taylor might look like a bargain when the boat is on fire and I am 50 miles off shore!
    BTW Meer if you are having bilge problems I can let you in on how to make that blower! hee hee
    Gerald

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