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Thread: Taylors kerosene stove VS propane ?

  1. #1
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    The taylors preasurised kerosene 030 two burner stove with oven looks very nice but how is it to live with ? dose anyone use one ?

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    I never could stand the smell of a kerosene stove. I would go for propane - with all the usual precautions about using propane on a boat.

    /// Frank ///

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    The only person I've known to have a kerosene stove swapped out out for a propane model because it sooted up his overhead something fierce. I've since heard that that is a symptom of not starting it up correctly - which is a lot easier now than it was then, primarily due to the advent of those long butane fire lighters to fully preheat the burners.

    I'm personally torn between kerosene and propane because there's a fairly significant chunk of change price difference if you include the gas tight locker, tankage, valves and plumbing. As I recall, the price of a Taylors (which includes the tank and plumbing) and an equivelent propane stove is about the same, but then you're out another $5-600 for the rest of the propane rig. Kerosene is cheaper to run too.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    Do you think these Taylor stoves smell of kerosene or do all kerosene stoves smell? You know they have been making them in england for a very long time without a change. Maybe that's a good thing and maybe it is not !

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    I have one.

    To be slightly pedantic, there have been design changes - early stoves had cast iron bodies; today's stoves have stainless steel.

    No it does not soot up the overhead; this is for two reasons:

    1. If you light the stove properly and keep it clean it does not make a sooty flame

    2. Like most sensible people I have a panel of 316 stainless, with insulation behind it, under the deck over both the galley stove and the cabin stove. It stops the wood deck drying out excessively due to the heat of the stove, and leaking.

    I am not aware of any kerosene smell. Again, the trick is to light it properly and keep it reasonably clean.

    The Taylor's stove burns rather hotter than a gas stove; there is no problem roasting or baking bread in the oven.

    The top burners have cast iron enamelled simmering plates which are a good idea.

    Consumption: 8 hours per burner per pint of kerosene. This means that it is quite practical to carry a large supply on board.

    You will gather that I definitely like this piece of equipment.

    May I put in a plug for their marine WC's and seacocks (Blakes) as well?
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Propane scares me because it sinks and collects in low spots when you have a leak.

    Kerosene doesn't have to be dirty - the grade range between "stove oil" (don't even think about it) and hardware store K2 is significant....K2 is almost as dirty but at least you can light it.

    Visit your local airfield some time and see if you can get some JP-4 jet fuel. They may have a tank of "contaminated" fuel that doesn't meet spec for water or was pumped out of an aircraft being worked on. Water sinks to the bottom and is no big deal if you allow that fuel to sit for a while.

    And it's often free for the asking.

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    Andrew: is your stove iron,stainless or brass?
    Are there any very good or bad points to the stove? Can you jury rig a preasure tank if you don't have one? You may have guessed that I am looking at a used one without a tank.

  8. #8
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    Hello Bob,
    Are you telling me that jet fuel is what I want to put in a Taylors stove ? Andrew says it already burns hotter than propane.... How fast could I get a cup of coffee ?

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    Mine is brass and stainless, and I got it without a tank; I got a secondhand tank in another deal.

    No, you really cannot and should not jury rig the tank installation or the piping to the stove; this is kerosene under pressure we are talking about. Get a new tank and run the right piping.

    Buy the stove if the price is halfway reasonable; all the spares, and a couple of special tools, are available from Taylors, along with an excellent manual (which tends to assume that you are in mid-Pacific!)
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Are you telling me that jet fuel is what I want to put in a Taylors stove ?
    Try some first....it's the cat's meow in a wicked Aladin sleeping at night in a tent...no wakeups to soot-laden sneezing.

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    I've heard that jet fuel is very good, but have not tried it. One tip from Nigel Calder which I find to be true is - the clearer the kerosene, the better. The very yellowish stuff is a poorer grade.

    Some grades are dyed - we used to have Esso Blue and Aladdin Pink here in Britain - that is quite a different thing to the yellow colour.

    Low grade kero will soot things up more readily and, even worse, it will carbon up the burner pipes.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Origo 'The safest way to cook afloat'



    Quote 'About our company';

    In Halmstad, Sweden, we develop and distribute non-pressurised stoves, ovens and portable heaters. The method is pressure-free alcohol, well known for safety and easy handling.
    Simply pour denatured alcohol into the stainless steel container where fuel is absorbed and bound in a non-flammable wool material. Origo utilises natural capillary action to draw alcohol from storage to the surface. This means there is no dangerous pressure involved. Origo products are easy to handle, reliable and efficient with full power performance.

    The Origo brand - a part of Dometic
    and a substansial part of the overall product range within Dometic Marine.

    Quote 'The Advantages'

    On a boat, the demands on a stove are greater. It´s essential that it works all the time. The more parts and the more complicated the design, the greater risk of malfunctions. Origo stoves are designed to be "idiot proof", and work completely without pressure, which totally eliminates delicate parts that are likely to go wrong.

    Every year reports reach us of boat fires, often with tragic consequences. Origo stoves have excellent built-in safety, thanks to their uncomplicated design, the un-pressurised burning and the connection free installation.

    A boat stove should also be suitable for the situation in which it is used. Stability and strong pot holders , that can be adjusted easily, are important safety and convenience features. To be considered for use in a small boat at all, a stove must also be equipped with effective gimbals.

    The high output is another good argument. All the denatured alcohol stoves have a maximum heating power output of 2000W (7000 BTU) per burner at full power, fully adjustable, and at maximum power a burning time of approx. 4,5 hours.

    Durable, easy to maintain and elegant. The stainless steel surface simplifies cleaning and guarantees a long working life.

    The Origo stove is easy to install and simple to use. No fuel pipes are required because the stove comes complete with integrated fuel tanks. No need for safety valves or testing for leaks. Just open the burner and ignite. It couldn´t be easier!

    http://www.origo-sweden.com

    US distributor:

    Intercon Marketing Inc
    1540 Northgate Blvd.
    SARASOTA, FLORIDA 34234
    Tel +1 941 355 44 88
    Fax +1 941 355 15 58
    info@interconmktg.com
    www.interconmktg.com

  13. #13
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    OK.... So.... what is jet fuel ?

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    OK.... So.... what is jet fuel ?
    "Jet fuel" is one of the many different grades of kerosene.

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    I'm another fan of Taylor stoves and cabin heaters, I have both, and have used mine for 14 years. They are VERY expensive new, I would not wish to lose that amount of cash now.
    Oh yes, I've used jet fuel and it works well, sadly my (free)source dried up.
    IanW

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    The downside with non-pressurized alcohol stoves like the Origo is that alcohol produces a very cool flame - it can take the flip side of forever to heat things up. I believe they also pump an even worse amount of water into the cabin than do proppane or kerosene stoves.

    Stove alcohol is also very expensive.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    Andrew and Ian; you have both helped me see the light. If and when, mine will be a Taylors!
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    Since 1970 I have tried to cook on a couple of alcohol stoves, and lived aboard for several years each with kerosene, propane, and diesel stoves. My experiences:

    Kerosene - cheap, hot and dirty. Fiddly to light. Too hot for simmering without fooling with a flame disperser.

    Propane - cheap, clean, and immediately hot and controllable.

    Diesel - fiddly to light; hot enough, but you heat up the whole boat whether you want to or not; cheap, but you have to heat longer to get the stovetop up to temp, and controlling oven temp takes awhile; dirty, but more on deck rather than overhead, and only when things go awry. Proper installation is critical. Involves a learning curve.

    In a cool climate I'd go for diesel, otherwise propane. If cooking were the only consideration I would say propane is far better than anything else. To me the ideal cruising boat would be a 42' pinky schooner with a wood stove in the forecastle and a propane range in the galley.

    Frank

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    Frank,
    Did you use a Taylors stove or one like it ? And is there a difference in the way various kero stoves behave.
    What do you say Ian and Andrew and anyone else ?

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by stephen m:
    [QB]Frank,
    And is there a difference in the way various kero stoves behave.
    QB]
    I have used a number of Primus type stoves and an Origo alcohol (meths) stove. I hated the Origo. Slow to use and expensive to run. Taylor stoves, or rather the burners, need to be maintained, which involves cleaning the burners,,, or replace them every year or two. I like to pre-heat with a hand blowtorch and a propane/butaine mixture rather than alcohol.It's quicker and the burners last longer. Taylors do it that way,,,,,,
    Find a good second hand one and fit new burners would be my advice.
    Andrew is dead right about other Blakes products of course. Blakes seacocks are the best, the standard that others aim below.......

    IanW

  21. #21
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    Taylors use the same burner parts as other pressure kerosene stoves - indeed, there are only two makers of these in the world - one in Sweden and one in Portugal.

    Yes they are dirtier than propane, and also hotter. I don't really agree about the "fiddly to light" bit, because you can put the pan, kettle, whatever on top of the burner whilst it is heating up, if like me you use alcohol for this (Ian uses a gas torch) so you use the heat that is pre-heating the burner to start cooking.

    The Taylor's cast iron simmering plate works well and is simple.

    No-one has been blown to bits by a kerosene stove, and no-one has been forced to eat cold food because the thread on the fitting on the bottle did not match the fitting on the system!
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  22. #22
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    Stephen,

    I've never used a Taylor's stove. My kero stove was an RV type with Primus burners. For what it was it worked fine, until I hauled it out to the cockpit under sail and dropped it overboard. That was my happiest day with it.

    I've had problems with all the stoves I've used, except the propane stove. But I suppose it depends on where you are, and where you're going. I haven't sailed far from propane suppliers or without a plentiful supply, or beyond the N. American west coast.

    Best of luck. They all work anyway.

    Frank

    [ 10-18-2003, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Frank E. Price ]

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    Looks like Defender Industries is no longer offering Taylors stoves in the US, alas.

    Anyone know of other sellers?
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    I spoke to Defender 2 days ago and they still sell them. The fellow I spoke to said Taylors was having some problems getting orders out and if you order one you may need to wait for some weeks.
    One of the things that got me started on Taylors stoves is that they seem to look the part for an old wooden boat like mine. Of course someone will always say, " do you want to look at it or use it ! ". But then why a wood boat ? I want to use it and I want to like it.
    Franks idea of a propane aft and a wood burning Shipmate foward sound just right to me but on a 30 ft boat there can't be both.
    In the best of all worlds I would have a very small wood burning Shipmate with a couple of burners swiched to propane. I don't think that has been done.
    But almost everything involves a compromise. The Taylors I am looking at is all brass and looks great. with the kind help of all here I have come to find out that it also works.

    I would never have thought to put jet fuel in such a stove.
    So the guy in the airport says, "Why do you want just one gallon of fuel ?" To which I suppose I would reply," because am buying enough for the next six months.
    Is that what to say?

    many thanks,
    Steve

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    Steve thanks for the info/good news. I looked at Defender's website and they used to have them listed online, but they don't seem to now. Even searching their website didn't bring them up.

    I don't recall how many pints are in a gallon (8?), but I think the 030 stove is listed as using .5pt/hr. 16 hours/gallon then?

    BTW, are you thinking of the 030 or the 030L?

    [ 10-19-2003, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    Metho stoves are bad??

    'The high output is another good argument. All the denatured alcohol stoves have a maximum heating power output of 2000W (7000 BTU) per burner at full power, fully adjustable, and at maximum power a burning time of approx. 4,5 hours.'

    Expensive?

    I dont know about availability of Metho in the US but to buy Metho (in Australia) was AUS$2.50 per liter (75 cents US) available in every supermarket and hardware store.

  27. #27
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    Originally posted by MarkC:
    Metho stoves are bad??

    Expensive?

    It's not the meths you burn that bothers me, it's the evaporation of the meths that is left that annoys.

    IanW

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    Origo is also sold in The Netherlands as Electrolux. Haven't used one myself, but a Waarschip-sailor I know uses a two-burner Electrolux and is very satisfied with it. Low fuel consumption, 1 liter will boil in about 6-7 minutes.

    I don't like propane, too dangerous in a boat if you ask me.

    Those Taylor stoves look very good, though. I guess they're like AGA cookers: buy once, use in the family for many generations.

    Greets, Leon Steyns.

  29. #29
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    Meerkat,
    The 030 is the right size for me and it is the one I have seen. It's in good condition but is missing the tank. Taylors ,in England, says not to juey rig the tank. So... I guess i'll try to find a tank.

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    Metho powered stoves/burners

    Ian - I read this on the Origo site. It was from their FAQ. http://www.origo-sweden.com

    Question =
    'Do I have to put on the rubber gaskets after each cooking, so that the fuel won´t evaporate?

    Answer =

    No, the rubber gaskets are only necessary to use during winter storage, or when not using the stove for longer periods of time. At 30 degrees Celsius the evaporation is only a few grams every 24 hours.' End Quote.

    It looks like you can place rubber seals in to stop all evaporation - say if your not going on the boat for 2 or more weeks.

    This Origo/Dometic/Electrolux system looks like a serious alternative for LPG/Natural Gas/Propane/Butane (bottled gass) installations. No gass alarms needed, no Professional installation required. The catch is that meths stoves are slower, but less expensive, safer, less complex - a propane burner boils water in 4 mins a meths burner in 8 mins...

    Expensive to run - no it wasn't for me - You dont need special 'stove fuel' - try to buy your ethanol/methanol in bulk - us Aussies are lucky with cheap meths coming from our Ethanol industry (that good old sugar cane!)

    Origo also offer a half meths, half electricity when elect is available.

    And as for needing a propane blow torch or bottle of alcohol to preheat and light a diesel or other cooker - sounds a bit too much to me. Use the meths stove - its even easier than a wood stove.

    [ 10-19-2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

  31. #31
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    The tread is listed as "Taylors kerosene stove VS propane ?". There is a a lot of information here about Taylors but what about the VS propane part? Frank was a live aboard and loved propane. One person states that propane is too dangerous but stopped short of explaining why.
    So, Taylor stoves are cute and would be tricky to say that I have one in my classic sailboat.
    Would like to hear the down side of propane that drives someone to buy the more expensive and troublesome Taylor. Maybe Lloyds of London won't insure boats with propane??? Guess my real question is this: I have propane bottles enclosed in a stainless steel box with a rubber hose running from the box to my stove. I fill my own bottles and control the pressure. Should I tear that mess out of the boat and install a Taylor?
    Gerald Niffenegger

  32. #32
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    Originally posted by Gerald:
    One person states that propane is too dangerous but stopped short of explaining why.
    From above:

    Propane scares me because it sinks and collects in low spots when you have a leak.

  33. #33
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    Good point Bob. Please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding there is an additive in propane to make it smell, so that you will know when you have a leak. Then again maybe you mean when in use it stinks? The smell of diesel or kerosene is not my list of favorite smells inside a boat. However, my 20+ gallon tank could leak and fill the bilge with that smelly stuff.
    That part about the gas settling in low places, if there is a leak, is the kicker.
    Gerald

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    Bob I read your message as stinks instead of sinks. Sorry
    Gerald

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    Sorry if this is a departure from the choice provided in the title but I am going to put in a cautious vote in favor of pressurized alcohol (with a remote tank). The real measure of value of a stove is how long it takes to boil a pot of water and that depends on how many btu's can be delivered through burning the fuel. This can be increased either by increasing the heat content of the fuel and/or increasing the delivery rate of that fuel (and oxygen). Pressurized alcohol gets over its low heat content problem by increasing the delivery rate of the fuel. My impression (I haven't measured it) is that pressurized alcohol boils water as fast (in terms of my perception in the morning waiting for coffee) as any other that I've used (propane and diesel). Un-pressurized alcohol is practically useless. The trick to alcohol (and any other stove fuel that is liquid at room temperature-- like, say, kero and diesel) is to get the feed tube that passes over the burner preheated enough to vaporize the liquid … this must be done carefully. As I’m sure most folks here know, the procedure for pressurized alcohol is to bleed a bit of liquid into a tray laying below the burner, light the liquid, then after the flames die down a bit (give enough liquid for 1-2 minutes) turn on the fuel and cook away. Why, just earlier this month {caution, a bit of a tale coming here but be patient, there is a point} a friend and I were exiting cape cod canal on a moonless night at 2:00 am into a heck of a standing wave pattern created by the Buzzards bay rollers interacting with a strong counter current when the engine (an atomic four) died of stirred-up-crud-disease causing us to hastily hoist the sails and proceed to tack up the relatively narrow channel. By the time we had cleared the oncoming tug and its tow and were well into Buzzard’s bay, I felt we deserved a bit of something. We had a packet of Raman noodles so my crew proceeded to fire-up the pressurized stove. The key to the above mentioned lighting procedure is to use only a bit of liquid but, alas (no blame here, it can happen to anyone) too much was released (it’s hard to see) and on our then course the flames started licking the galley cabin sides/ceiling. The solution was another quick tack so that, the now 3 foot flames, passed happily out the companionway hatch. It was quite a remarkable sight, at night from the wheel, to see flames dancing out of the below-decks but it was short lived and no harm was done and we had our noodles (which, by the way, only taste good on a cold night on a boat or a mountain). The point here is that any fuel can be dangerous. Propane (like gasoline vapor) is heavier than air and will settle in the bilge mixing with air waiting to turn your boat into huge potato cannon. The danger of any liquid fuel is the need to preheat the delivery tube. None of these liquid fuels will blow up so the potential accidents happen slowly enough that they can be dealt with with common sense. So, if treated carefully, alcohol in a remote pressure tank with a shut off valve at the tank, works great and is much safer than propane and, in my albeit limited experience, is less smelly than Kero or Diesel.

    Apologies for taking this thread on a wordy detour,

    David.

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