CPES and my credibility

[Q.Foster]

I am NOT a boatbuilder, I am a dedicated wooden boat owner. I read and learn good stuff on this Forum; I've read a lot about this CPES, and it sounds good to me. Read the Chemist's analysis, Cleek's expansive endorsement, the many postings of Smith's phone number, and I might be convinced, myself, to use the stuff on the new oak frame ends and garboard planks going into my boat this winter at the yard.

But you couldn't pay me to walk into the boatyard, where my boat is lying in the intensive care unit with the horn timber exposed and the thirty feet of garboard opened up, and tell the guys working under the boat to use "this new goo that I just read about on the Internet. No, you've never heard of it. It is not sold in stores. No it isn't just thinned epoxy. Everybody says its great stuff. Really!" I would sound like an ignorant snake-oil salesman. I have enough problem being female and getting the respect around the boatyard.

I can't ask them to read all the thousand of posts on CPES on this forum.

Heck, I've never even seen anything on CPES in WOODENBOAT magazine itself! Where is something I can point to that backs me up when I ask the yard to use CPES?

[Ian McColgin]

Depends on the yard. The ones that are really sure of themselves will tell you that if you want CPES, get another yard. Some might remembery that you're paying them by the hour and it's no skin off their back if you want to pay more.

Truely, if they do good work the bad old fashioned way, shelacking or redleading the ends as they go, it'll be ok.

I used to have a sign:
Labor $25/hr
$40/hr if owner helps

So, approach them gentley and g'luck

[Bob Cleek]

Call Steve Smith and ask him to send you his product information. Give that to the guys in the yard and tell them that every yard on the West Coast is probably using the stuff, and if they want to be the first, go for it.

[Ian Wright]

Ask them what they think is the best for your boat and then let them get on with it.No doubt they know what products work with the other goos, jallops and sludges trhey like to work with,,,,,,,,,.
,,,, or try this, next time you are sick go to the doctor of your choice, tell him that you have diagnosed your own malady and wish to prescribe your own cure, then see what he says,,,,,,,,,,,

IanW.

[Scott Rosen]

You're in a spot. I've never had much luck telling someone else what to use when they're working on my boat. I think the best you can hope for is to find a yard whose work you trust, and go with their recommendation. Oh, and just a thought--if they've never used CPES before, I'm not sure I'd want my boat to be the experimental guinea pig.

[Gary Bergman]

Ditto on Cleeks post concerning West Coast yards and cpes. Just looked at the itemized materials list and after a five grand repair I see I paid for 8 oz. cpes. Even the old timers have made the conversion.

[Don Z.]

Just a thought... "not sold in stores" may be a misnomer. I found CPES in several of the stores on Shelter Island in San Diego. "Used in all the major restorations on the West coast" may be stretching it, but The Big Apple is not Maine... Add product info from Mr. Smith, and you should be OK...

[Dale Harvey]

With some of the doctors I've been seeing lately, you darn well better know what's up, or they'll kill you off! If your yard and it's crew feel they know it all and don't want to learn any new tricks, you have a poor yard and will get a mediocre boat at best. If as counciler Cleek suggests, you present them with the product liturature and tell them where you found out about it, they should be suitably impressed. If they take a derisive cant and rant, pack up your keel and find another yard. Oh and tell them if they are smart enough to fire up a computer, come on over and I'll flame them royally! I've just bared the peeling west and urethane from the yellow pine rubrails on the launch and had an assistant coat them with CPES followed by Smith's tropical hardwood glue fortified with microfiber and white pigment. Also sanded the fuzzyrot under the gunnels and CPESed that too. Soaked right in and looks great.If it didn't take so long to get here from there I'd use his paint too. I've been fooling around with wood boats for 40+ years now, and would never have heard of Smith without this forum. Print this thread and show it to 'em.

[thechemist]

Click and select the thread. Go to File on the upper toolbar. Click and select Print. Print Selection. Cool, huh?

[steve sparhawk]

I would hope that if I selected a yard to work on MY boat that I would have some say in what was done. The yard that won't take an open view to my ideas isn't worth my hire. And how in heck could someone object to a CPES type penetrant? And they can put their red lead primer on afterwards anyway. If it's MY money, I'm going to have input.
(I suppose that's about 3-cents worth)

[NormMessinger]

Yabut, Steve, you are not a gurl. Q., I think, is not be either but it wont be so obvious to the boat yard guys. Go get 'em, Q..

--Norm

[Ian McColgin]

I like what CPES has done for me so far, but I wonder if part of it's being a CA thing, besides the fact that Mr. Smith hasn't tarted it up with geewiz marketing, is that it appears to be sensitive to humidity. So to the question:

Anyone know of some objective humidity and temperature studies of the various propriatary epoxies?? Has Practical Sailor ever done one?

[thechemist]

Temperature and humidity studies are not an easy thing to do.

To determine where on the temperature scale a particular epoxide/amine system reaction rate departs from linearity [the reaction rate dropping in half for roughly every ten centigrade degrees temperature decrease, as is normal]and pretty much ceases to cure correctly, one needs to place a formulation in refrigerated environmental chambers at various temperatures, and measure something that represents the extent of cure. One needs to make such measurements at various temperatures from room temperature down to below freezing. This is a very sophisticated sort of test for a magazine-publisher to make, and outside testing labs would charge an impractical fortune to do it. I do it because I have to, in the course of developing a formulation. There are various types of accelerators, which are effective down to various temperatures, and their effectiveness, singly or in combination, is sometimes different for different curing agent structures. These things sometimes influence the linearity of what one is measuring, making interpretation of data by the average person very difficult.

Humidity effects have to do with the tendancy of amine curing agents to form amine carbonates with the carbon dioxide in the air, resulting in an oily film on the surface. This is called Amine Blush, but epoxy-amine systems with inert extenders or diluents [such as Benzyl Alcohol, found in many products including the WEST SYSTEM(R)products], can also exude during cure or in the few days afterwards, giving a similar oily film. That particular product does both, which is a good reason to clean the cured surface thoroughly before putting something else on top.

Amine Blush is dependent not only on temperature but upon Certain Other Factors Which If Known By The Manufacturer Could Be Minimized Or Even Eliminated. Given that various proprietary products have differing tendancies in that area, could that be measured? Again , the answer is maybe, although it would not be any easier. The presence of an oily film of any sort on the surface can be detected by the smear test, wherein light is arranged to reflect off the surface towards the viewer and the cured surface smeared with a cotton swab. If the surface is dry there will be no light reflection distortion. If there is an oily film it will be visible by the light reflection from the "smear". [this is only qualitative, and ideally the test should be quantitative.] This is critically dependent on temperature, and specimens would have to be cured in environmental chambers set to somewhat below freezing on up to the highest outside temperature expected to be encountered.

This again is not practical for a magazine publisher to do, and outside labs are expensive.

Testing everyone's product at one arbitrary temperature, humidity and atmospheric carbon dioxide content will give one data point, but will not show which products start or stop their blush above or below that particular combination of environmental conditions. Blush, incidentally, should not have anything to do with atmospheric humidity. If a product is hygroscopic [meaning sucks up atmospheric moisture and dissolves in it to make a water/chemical goo] then an oily film would develop, but I think it unlikely any commercial products are doing this.

Probably the best test is to look and see which manufacturers say of a product "blush-free" or "does not blush above/below some temperature/humidity/etc"., and then buy those and see if the manufacturer lied or spoke sooth.

The foregoing comments apply to only the one-hundred-percent-solids products which many people make. Solvent-borne products are inherently sensitive to liquid water on the surface, although usually not at all to atmospheric humidity. CPES as well as any other epoxy paint or oil-based enamel or varnish have similar sensitivities to liquid water [e., g., rain or dew] on the surface but not to atmospheric humidity. Products such as CPES which are designed to dissolve the liquid water in wood may be more sensitive.

Other paints and coatings have different humidity sensitivity characteristics. Two-component isocyanate-cured polyurethanes actually have a secondary curing reaction involving the moisture [humidity] in the air. They need it. Latex paints are sensitive to atmospheric humidity in that they have water in their formulation, which must evaporate and must evaporate before a coalescing solvent evaporates or the stuff will not dry and cure properly and lousy weather resistance will result. Generally they should not be applied at humidities above eighty-five percent, or other time-temperature combinations. Latex paints are formulated slightly differently for different local environments, so they behave properly in the local area weather conditions.

[Q.Foster]

Oh.
I see.
Yes, well.
OK, Chemist, I'll print that up and float it by them at the boatyard. I guess I got the authority now.

Does that suggest that CPES will work differently in New England that in CA?

Where do you work again?

[Art Read]

Q... No offence, but... Who's paying for the work? People tend to get intimidated by "profesionals" of all types. Doctors, lawyers, car mechanics, boat builders, radio talk show hosts... Here's a chance to assert yourself with a little authority! Hell, you know what you're talking about for a change! Ok, maybe you don't have any first hand experience with CPES yet... Buy a little, take it home, slap it on a piece of scrap and paint or varnish it. That's what I did. Sold me. Any "profesional" that wasn't willing to look at a product I believed in would get a loooong second look from me...

[Cedar Hill Boatworks]

Q,
There are not that many reputable yards artound NY that do wooden boat work. My guess is you are at one of the yards in Mamaroneck or out on the north shore?
Chances are these guys know what CPES is. Just ask. It's your boat, its your money.
Get Smiths info and take it along with you, but I don't think theres going to be much trouble.

[Cedar Hill Boatworks]

Q,
There are not that many reputable yards artound NY that do wooden boat work. My guess is you are at one of the yards in Mamaroneck or out on the north shore?
Chances are these guys know what CPES is. Just ask. It's your boat, its your money.
Get Smiths info and take it along with you, but I don't think theres going to be much trouble.

[sigridt]

Isn't this the woodenboat forum? It sure don't sound like it here!

[NormMessinger]

Say what, Sigridt? Are you suggesting this forum should not discuss putting any of these modern coatings on wood? Stuff like CPES, epoxy, paint, varnish, red lead? Bark is natural but it is hard to make it stick.

--Norm

[Ian McColgin]

Many of us find the chemist an important sourse of information about many of the common products used in wooden boats. That is indeed part of wooden boating, just as are the basic metalurgy you might want to know when choosing ss 316 v 306, or what bronze to use, or how to cast your keel, or just as tool threads have a value.

Many people just skip the threads they either don't like, don't comprehend, already know everything about, or find boring.

So, having shaken out the Monday it was a miserable commute nasties out of my system -

I think Mr C has answered my question. I know both WEST and Smith have fairly detailed moisture and temperature information with their products, more detail only a phone call away but I needed the overview to give me a key to interpreting it. Thank you.

I also see the problems of limited testing. When I wass first playing with epoxy in boat building, early '70's, I thought a brittleness test might be useful so I made dixie cup castings of various propriataris available. Put them on an anvil and did the easy arm drop test with a 3# ball peen. Tres sci-ence. Most shattered - the WEST spectacularly so. Gluvit caused the hammer to bounce back like it had hit a superball. Also did sheet tests, spreading the stuff on a wax paper about 1mm thick and bending it. This is dangerous with WEST and most others. Again, gluvit bent.

But in the end, neither of those tests said much about how the stuff will work as a glue. The brittleness of 1mm of epoxy is irrelevant to the behavior of a much thinner glue line the you build up laminating a stem or frame. And when your making molded or caste epoxy structures to join with a wooden sturcture, like nicely radiused fillets, the binder/filling will prove more significant than the epoxy itself again assuming you're staying within the mainstream of the good brands.

Again, thanks Chemist

[Art Read]

Sigridt... Have you ever seen this stuff? I doubt you'll find anybody more irrationaly committed to "traditional" wooden boatiness than I am, just because it "looks" right... But I'd be comfortable letting you to look at my boat when it's finished (and as it ages...) and feel confident you would never know where I have used CPES and where I haven't. This stuff ISN'T the "googe" that people use to "encapsulate" wood against the vagaries of Mother Nature. It's just a easier to use wood sealer. Any good builder uses some sort of coating on rot prone faying surfaces when putting a boat together. Some use pine tar, linseed oil and turpintine. Some use red or white lead or roofing tar. Some use cuprinol. Some use all of the above! I'm kind of a "belt and suspenders type... I use the CPES on the bare wood to seal it and provide a good "bonding" surface for the final finish and then put red lead on as "insurance" in the places that I hope to never see again... Having seen how well the paint goes on over it, I plan to also use it wherever I'm going to apply paint or varnish on exposed surfaces as well. I'm not trying to make a "plastic", bulletproof boat. In fact, I am very carefully AVOIDING using anything that will impead the wood's natural properties. This stuff isn't just the latest "miricle, no-more-maintainence wonder". Try some!

[deedee]

West Marine Sells it.... at least in the Bay Area.

[Boatshop]

Q. I have many female customers and they have my respect for not pretending to know things they don't as much as men do. It's your money, ask questions.

Smith's CPES is good stuff, it seems right in many situations. Twenty years ago Smith was repackaging surplus chemicals so I am skeptical of his other stuff.Good luck!

[TomRobb]

I was beginning to think we had another Maureen thread here.

[sigridt]

Actually Ian, I didn't have the time to search the archives for the CPES thread and have only read the current topic, but in general I am finding a wealth of information on the forum, such as JohnRSmith's Guide to Rot topic.
Art Read - Thanks for your comments. I'd certainly like to see your boat. Have you posted any pictures in progress?
I am not, Norm, suggesting this forum shouldn't discuss these modern coatings but just like be the irritating voice considering the traditional methods that were used before these products came along. Any thoughts beyond pine tar, linseed oil and shellack?
"irrationally committed to traditional wooden boatiness",
Sigrid

[This message has been edited by sigridt (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Art Read]

Sigrid... Actually, I have an irrational superstition re: the posting of any pictures of my project until I have it far enough along to at LEAST get it turned over. (Really, I've just been too lazy figure out how to do it yet!) I'm in the process of hanging the last pair of planks now and plan to stumble my way through the caulking "learning curve" next. (Found some nice, old irons already, though...) I'll make a point to post a few "ego" shots from the turning party. Hopefully shortly!

[This message has been edited by Art Read (edited 10-31-2000).]

[bythelake]

Good on yer, Sigridt.

You do that. You can line up to the right of The Cleek, who, along with Mr. Miller were/are the previous/current burr under the saddle blanket of the crowd practicing SNG, TNT, glued-lapstrake and other heathenish practices.

You get to be to Cleek's right, because even he admits that CPES has its place in ``traditional'' boat building.

All the above is meant in the most welcoming manner. We need all reasonable types and viewpoints in here to stir the kettle.

[Ian McColgin]

I agree with that. In my career as a community organizer outside agitator troublemaker I've often pointed out that society is like a stew - it needs stirring.

Does seem to me that those of use who like to stir should also expect to be stirred now and again . . .

[Kermit]

Hey Art--maybe the Seattleite Forumites could lend a hand with turning. And after, you'd get to choose the dive, and we'd get to buy your beer! I'm eagar to see your boat and haven't spent all my allowance yet.

[Allen Foote]

I'm sorry...but I dont think frame ends should be soaked with CPES....shouldn't they be bedded in either an antifungal bedding compound or in a red lead paste?

[This message has been edited by Allen Foote (edited 10-31-2000).]

[Jamie Hascall]

Kermit, you printed the thought that immediately came to my mind too. Art, We'd be honored to help flip that Dark Harbor with you if you so desire.

This is a great thread hi-lighting the concept that modern materials can have an adventageous and proper place in "traditional" boat work. They can of course be over used, or used to try to short cut a proper procedure, each of which can be less than successful. However, treatments such as the sheathing of "Curlew" can demonstrate that even methods that are often regarded as shortcuts can, when skillfully applied, do wonders. I think that the thoughtful and innovative use of new materials in conjunction with tested methods will move us forward, albeit with a few stumbles along the way. The treating of frame ends with CPES before bedding them in red lead paste seems like just such a combination.

I'd certainly look for the most skilled people I can find who are open to considering the advances that continue to be made.

Good luck,
Jamie

[Cedar Hill Boatworks]

Mr. Foote,
Would you object to soaking frame ends with CPES and then bedding in a suitable compound?

[Scott Rosen]

Reading this post, I'm still awed by the liveliness of the traditional versus modern debate that never seems to end.

The problem with CPES is its name. If you took "epoxy" out of the name and substituted something like "distilled pine tar," I think the objections would disappear. Epoxy, in all its forms and uses, seems to be the battle line of this debate. Personally, I don't think there's anything better than CPES for sealing endgrain. And I think the use of red lead after applying CPES is overkill (although I don't see how it could hurt). Lead was discovered to be effective at discouraging fungus growth in areas of wet wood. Its use developed before there were other chemicals (i.e., epoxies) that were more effective in preventing rot. The CPES eliminates the conditions that allow rot to form in the first place. The CPES will last as long or longer than the wood itself. In other words, the wood will decay from causes other than rot long before the CPES will decay. If you have the boat long enough for the CPES to fail, you can be sure that the read lead is lonnnnggggg gone.

[Q.Foster]

Actually, I am even less convinced to use CPES than before I began this question.

I remember 20 years ago when the new "miracle product" 5200 was being touted as the greatest savior of old wooden boats. Probably it still is admired in some circles. I am reminded of this because there is a nasty bead of 5200 along some of the plank edges, in a repair made about 15 years ago on my boat. I asked some of the boat carpenters at the yard, who are pulling this stuff out amid oaths and sweat, as they remove a few planks to get at the frame ends, how someone could have used such a nasty product in the repair of such a nice boat? An otherwise well-built, high-end CCA-era yacht. (The boat was built in 1965, using resorcinol as the only goo.)

That bead of 5200 just goes on and on in the garboard seams, between healthy, well-fitted mahogany planks. It is as though someone doing the replanking then was thinking: this repair will never have to be made again: this is the modern age (in the early 80's) and this new product will outlast this wooden boat, so let's make it rock-hard, and it will last forever!

Well, to get to the frame ends, we have to tear up that otherwise decent plank, and the job is way worse because of someone's zeal in applying (what was then) a new, miracle-product, at the time of the last big refit.

I am thinking that I will let some of you smart guys soak on the CPES wherever you want, and we will stay with the red lead and bronze in this old boat.

Most wooden boat lovers are kind of "retro" by nature, aren't they? or they wouldn't be so excited about Gaffs and topsails in the PINRAIL thread, or Smith's reveries in the Fal.

[Ian McColgin]

I wasn't aware of any professional or enlightened amateur who ever thought 5200 would make either a caulking substitute or an underwater seam compound, but dumbies abound.

About 20 years ago I saw guy reef out perfectly good caulking from a classic extreem yawl and goober in SitkaFlex. I love the sneakyflux myself, in its right place, but this wasn't it. Tried to warn him. He wouldn't listen. She opened up on lots of adjoining seams (the sneakyflux itself held up) the first time she was sailed, so he hauled again and attacked more and more seams with stickyflex, gradually destroying every seam. Eventually he couldn't afford the yard bills.

The yard owner tried to convince me to buy her for the unpaid yard bill, but I declined, lacking adequate endowment and not much liking the super long overhang way over canvassed design dead end of that period anyway. A dreamer did turn up and he actually did a correct restoration, against all odds and reason. Just goes to show that for all of us,

AMOR VINCET OMNIA

(Oh Yeah. Real point is that no product is a miracle cure for everything. CPES is a wonderful sealer and I believe once in the wood and cured it's a better long term rot preventer than the highly toxic alternatives like cuprinol that are a hazard to us liveaboards anyway and better than the well loved red lead since that's pretty much just a local. Especially end grain is where you want it.)

[This message has been edited by Ian McColgin (edited 11-01-2000).]

[sigridt]

Q.Foster - My faith is restored by your decision! And an interesting story too.
Sigridt

[Scott Rosen]

Q,

I wouldn't try to argue you out of using red lead for your frames and planks. It's good stuff that's withstood the test of time. But it's also been around long enough to have learned that it won't prevent rot indefinitely. If your frame ends will sit in oily bilge water for any extended time, the read lead could very well erode or dissolve in a few short years. In that case, you will only have added a few years of rot protection. If you have unlimited funds for repair and upkeep, then I suppose it doesn't really matter whether the repair lasts five years, ten years or thirty years.

It's really very simple. It's your boat, your money and your choice. If you are not convinced that CPES will add longevity to the repair, then don't bother. But don't discard CPES just because some morons have misused 3M 5200. Lots of traditional wooden boat owners and builders have used 5200 for years, and have been pleased with the results, but they all know enough not to use it to pay your hull and deck seams. Such a use shows complete ignorance of plank on frame construction. When used as an adhesive BEDDING compound, it is an excellent product. If you were to use CPES instead of varnish for your exterior bright work, you would be making a similar mistake. CPES is a sealer--not a coating or a caulking or a glue. As a sealer, it's more effective at keeping out moisture and stabilizing the wood than any other sealer I've heard of. Even though it's a "miricle" product when used instead of other sealers such as linseed oil or red lead, it will not work as glue, coating or caulking.

Good luck.

[Alan D. Hyde]

It is an ancient maxim of logic that "abuse does not argue against use."

Alan

[Cedar Hill Boatworks]

Q,
Yeah, what Scott said.

[Ian McColgin]

The old sailing ship medicine chests had medicine by numbers - look up the symptoms and then dose the sailor with a few drops of #8 or #5 or whatever the book called for. So, if there was a big demand on, say #9, and it ran out, the Captain might give the sailor a #3 and a #6.

So even the iron men in the real wooden boats could abuse the miracle cures of the day. Why should we be different.

My name is Ian and I'm an epoxyholic. This is my 3rd day without glueing anything . . .

[Scott Rosen]

Okay, I admit it too. I really like glue, especially epoxy. I'm not sure I'm a glue-a-holic, but the idea of cold-molding a hull is more exciting to me than building it plank on frame. That smooth, solid, light and stiff one piece hull, faired to perfection, leak-free . . .

Nope, I don't have a glue problem. I can stop anytime. Really. I can.

[Smacksman]

Iv'e been reading about CPES in these threads and searched for it in the forum to find out what it was. For others who have never heard of it I cut & pasteth ..

CPES is an acronym for Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer, sold by Smith and Co. of Richmond, California

.. and somebody who hails by the splendid name of the Rot Doctor.

[Ian McColgin]

Many of Rot Doctor's claims seem a bit over the top, but he is about the only reseller of Smith's stuff who ships. He might be a little faster and a little more modern in the payment department (Smith cashes your check then sends, and last time I dealt with him did not do credit cards) but RD is more expensive.

To make an wild analogy whose drug implications might at least amuse the anti-epoxies, Smith to Rot Doctor is like Alan Ginsberg to Hunter Thompson.

And this is my 4th glue free day . . .

[This message has been edited by Ian McColgin (edited 11-02-2000).]

[sigridt]

Ian & Scott - How many shares of stock do you have in this company? Inhaling CPES fumes causes one to purchase additional shares, right?
Sigridt

[Matt J.]

Scott:
"That smooth, solid, light and stiff one piece hull, faired to perfection, leak-free..."

Are you sure you meant to post that on the WoodenBoat forum, not the Sail magazine page? It sorta sounds like those cold molded boats are convenient ways to say you've got a wooden boat, with it's unique character, when really it's little different from a fiberglass hull, or more approprirately "fiberwood" hull. Where does the line blur between fiberglass and cold molded? Is the wood in cold molded much different from the wood core in fiber boats, AKA plastic boats? Is it the epoxy, or the extensive use of epoxy, that has people disagreeing?

Anywho, good luck with your boat. I take it we can look forward to pictures of your building a cold molded haven? Can we see some without the vacuum bag ?

[This message has been edited by Emerson (edited 11-02-2000).]

[Art Read]

Emerson... Perhaps the distinction lies with the absence of an opaque gell coat finish? Seeing the beauty of an underlying wood structure certainly differentiates one-off, cold molded hulls built up from a "jig" from balsa cored fiberglass hulls popped OUT of a female mold. But it's an interesting question...

(Off topic to Kermit and Jaimie and any other local "forumites"... You are all certanly invited to our "turning party"! Be good to see you again and I will most likely need all the able bodied hands I can get! But the way, I've always understood, it's up to the owner to provide the beer as payment for all that free, "grunt" labor. At any rate, we will be well provisioned... ;-} I'll post a new thread once I'm close enough to reliably set a date.)

[Scott Rosen]

Oh, Emerson (sigh), here we go again.

Most 'glass hulls I've seen are neither fair, nor light, nor stiff. They may be smooth, but there always seem to be dimples and ripples in the surface of a 'glass hull that a good wooden hull won't have. Some of them even leak, i.e., blisters. Cold molded wood is far superior to 'glass in almost all respects.

I now have a traditional carvel planked boat, with steam-bent frames and copper rivet fastened planks, and I also have a glued lapstrake boat (Nutshell Pram). If I ever actually get around to building the Haven, I'll have a cold molded boat too. So, no matter what anyone thinks of cold molding--is it wood? is it 'glass? is it trash?--I'll always be able to hold my head up high with even the most traditional among you.

Gazing into my crystal ball, I see that in the future, my favorite of the three will not be the carvel or the lapstrake . . .

[Ian Wright]

If I buy a bucket of cold moulding stuff will I have to pay extra for those nice little rows of holes where the staples were? ,,,,,or are they free?

IanW.

[thechemist]

Better Things for Better Living Through Chemistry.

[With a tip o'the hat to Tom Lehrer]

When the shades of night are quickening,
Comes a fellow everyone knows;
It's the old glue peddler
Spreading joy wherever he goes.

He gives the kids free samples
Because he knows full well
That today's young innocent samplers
Will be tomorrow's clientele.

Here's a cure for all your troubles
Here's a cure for all distress
It's the old glue peddler
with his liquid happiness.

[TomRobb]

Sigridt... Norse name? I'm beginning to understand why the Vikings were so anxious to get to sea and why they were so very angry and difficult to get along with.

[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 11-02-2000).]