Opinions on No Fiberglass

[SchoonerDreamin]

Maybe this should go in the building/repair forum but I thought since it was a question about plans it might go here, so here goes, it's been almost a year since I posted my wooden sunfish forum, and I finally decided on a plan to build

The stevenson Projects Mini-Cup that can be seen here>>>
http://www.stevproj.com/FastSailrs.html

Now my question comes I am about to start cutting lumber and I was reading the plans and they state that in a boat like this they do not see the need to use fiberglass and epoxy they say that

"On a dry sailed boat as the Mini-Cup with adequate applications of flexible seam seal and glue on the inside and polyester putty and oil base enamal on the outside, we've found that glass just isnt needed and it isnt worth the added weight or cost"

Do you guys agree with this or not? I find it hard to believe myself.

Also one last question is the bondo fiberglass and epoxy at home depot suitable for small daysailer boats like this?

[Brian Palmer]

Epoxy and glass on the outside of a plywood boat are not needed if you use good quality marine plywood and paint, and stay away from fir plywood (even marine fir plywood). Fir plywood of any sort needs fiberglass to keep from checking.

Still, be sure you seal any exposed end-grain of the plywood, and a coat of epoxy would provide a good foundation for paint, but it is not needed if you use good plywood and paint.

--Brian

[SchoonerDreamin]

Well the more I think of it I think I may just encapsulate the boat in fiberglass being a small boat it couldnt cost a huge amount, unless someone here can really sway my opinion

[Spokaloo]

Look at it this way. Its a limited cost, it teaches you another useable boatbuilding skill (glassing), it is an easily repairable and very durable outer covering, and uses the same glues (epoxy) as your building project would.

DO NOT USE POLYESTER. You will be very unhappy with the results.

E

[SchoonerDreamin]

Polyester meaning the cheap bonda stuff right? Can anyone suggest a good affordable brand and where I can get it online?

[Todd Bradshaw]

If you're serious about building a quality boat and are willing to spend a few more bucks for something that is actually made for use on wood and will last, you could certainly find a wide assortment of epoxy products that would beat the pants off of polyester putty. Other than being relatively cheap, it has no other qualities that make it a good choice on a wooden boat.

[jerry bark]

i have been using the epoxy from clark craft and have had good reslts so far. it is less costly than most others.

jerry

[Ron Paro]

It really depends on how you are going to use the boat, and how long you want it to last. In the Mini-Cup directions, they mention that an un-glassed ply boat can last many seasons if properly painted. If you use epoxy resin and 6 oz. fiberglass cloth, then it could cost $200 to $300 and several days time to add the epoxy and fiberglass, but I suspect would last much longer. You really need to decide for yourself, but if I wanted to build a quick little boat to get out there sailing, with the idea that I would likely build another at some point in the future, I think I would forego the fiberglass per the designer's suggestion. You will get the experience and satisfaction of building a boat and get onto the water sooner. Good luck and post pictures as you go! - Ron

[Stiletto]

I tend to agree with Ron, As long as the boat is stored in a dry space the materials should stand up quite well and any deteroration in the paint finish can be touched up with minimum effort.

Dont underestimate the value of less weight in a small boat.

Save the glass for your next project that uses it in the design.

[Thorne]

If you like working with epoxy and glass cloth, and the additional expense isn't an issue, then go for it.

But it sounds like you are already looking for cheaper alternatives to the big-brand epoxies. After a certain point you get what you pay for. Rather than use the cheap stuff with tons of blush (waxy residue) and other issues, just stick to epoxy putty and good paint. (don't ask me how I know this)

For flexible seams, Vulkem116 is great. For hard seams, PL PREMIUM (not the other PL's) is fantastic. And for an alternative to epoxy and glass cloth, try polyester fabric laid into/covered with porch paint -- seems to work well for some boatbuilders on the Duckworks Yahoo group.

[MiddleAgesMan]

The project I just started is Mike Storer's Goat Island Skiff. The only glass he uses in the skiff is 2 inch tape on the outside of the chines. He avoids glass because of its weight on his light displacement high-performance designs.

He specifies gaboon (okoume) marine plywood and light weight lumber for chine logs and other small framing pieces. While it is not an instant boat (because it doesn't use the stitch-n-glue technique) I believe the build time will be even closer to "instant."

The first GIS was built to these specs about 12 years ago and it still makes appearances on Mike's site as well as the owner's homepage. It got a two-part polyurethane finish on the outside and varnish on the inside, both of which are still original. Pictures taken as recently as January 2007 show the boat off quite well.

Since I had de-lam problems with my first attempt (probably due to inadequate de-waxing) I am thrilled to find something where the design doesn't require glass. The key when you are going to skip the glass is to use the very best materials, from the plywood to the lumber to the paint.

[JimD]

I doubt you're going to lose out on any of the big prize money because of ten pounds of epoxy and fiberglass covering this thing:



Putting a two ounce cloth on it will make your annual maintenance a little easier.

[Salty Sailor]

Use a good epoxy resin that uses large amounts of hardner in the ratio to make it easy to mix the ratio correctly. and you shouldn't have a problem doing the glasing. I use west system and they supply 2 different size pumps to dispense the correct ratio. One pump of each then mix it well and your off... Most people have trouble with fiberglassing by mixing the wrong ratio and its a big deal cleaning up the mess when you do get it wrong. Small amounts in an ice cream container about 3cm otherwise if you mix too much and you will get a fast reaction from the heat generated and it will cook very fast and hot before going rock solid. The resin doesn't stick to icecream containers so you can reuse the container over and over again..
Good Luck.

[Spokaloo]

I used to be a West guy, but as of late I switched to MarinEpoxy from www.bateau.com . Less blush, 2:1 ratio, and the prices are about 60% of West, not to mention with their forum it really is amazing how much support they give you, even if you are only using their building products and not their plans.

E

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I've got 3 small boats that are S&G plywood. None are fiberglassed but all have two coats of epoxy under the finish. The little pram in my avatar has been sailed about 25 times and doesn't have one penetration of the epoxy. On the other hand my 14' pirogue has been bumping down rapids and richocheting off boulders for 8-9 years. The bottom is covered with grayish scars because the epoxy was penetrated and microbial action got started. I purposely keep theis boat in varnish so I can see any bad spots brfore the bugs consume the outer verneer. It hasn't hurt the boat but, drying the hull out each winter and re-sealing the scars is a pain.
For abrasion protection a layer of glass on the bottom is all you need.
Also, I notice that thing has chine logs and cleats for glue surfaces. I would deep six those and glue the thing together with 6 oz. fiberglass tape and epoxy wherever possible. Makes for a better monocoque.

[SchoonerDreamin]

So ok I suppose I will go ahead and cover it with a good epoxy like a majority of you guys said it's a technique I will be using later on anyway might as well practice on a cheap boat......

Also any of you guys have an opinion on how this thing will perform I'm not expecting to outrun Lasers like the plans say but I would think it should sail quit well.......

[kenjamin]

There is much to say for simplicity when learning to sail and for your first build. My sister has a 11' Snark with a lanteen rig that she dearly loves. She often takes it out in the Atlantic in front of my brother's beach house, sailing out amoung the breakers and having a grand old time. She praises its responsiveness and its ability to be carried by her from the beach house to the water. All in our family were saltwater brats growing up and thought nothing of bodysurfing big waves and swimming beyond the breakers. I talked her into getting a Laser Pico about a year ago thinking that she would enjoy the substantial performance boost. She has been sailing in the new boat once.

Keep in mind that I'm the same guy that recommended that a guy on the forum "Go for it!" when it came to building a pocket cruiser yawl rig as a first build for he and his son. You could tell that the guy was in love with that yawl design and just needed some encouragement to get started. The yawl rig is sort of complicated but at the same time "user-friendly." So much of boat building has to do with passion and desire. Ability to complete a project is of course important but really liking a design and wanting to see it come to life is what really matters most.

[pipefitter]

Tape only creates the need for additional fairing which is an illusion of being fair more than it is actually fair. Unless you don't mind seeing the tapes.
I look at glass covering the same that I would with the ultimate,ideal paint coating or primer. They have been trying to make paints that don't crack forever. I figure the epoxy/glass is as close to this as they will ever get.

[gary porter]

I'd forget any fiberglass cloth on that boat but use a good quality BS1088 marine plywood or such. Coat the hull with epoxy to achive a saturation not a build. You can clear coat the inside, that is an epoxy that is made for leaving the wood bright.
Use an epoxy primer wherever you are going to paint like the outside of the hull then paint it with a good quality tough paint. A good polyurethane paint is good.
My preference is System Three which has all the products you'll need. If you leave the inside bright then you'll need to varnish the epoxy there. I have three small boats built in this manner and have had no problems what so ever. My oldest small boat which is a Shellback Dinghy was built as such and I've had to do no maintenance on the finish at all , its probably 10years old of more and has spent a winter or two outside. Outside here is a challenge for a paint job as it gets down in the minus 40s in winter and 80s in summer. I'm certainly not against glass cloth and epoxy on a boat and use it on bigger boats but wouldn't on yours.
Someone above mentioned marine fir,, don't not on a small boat, the extra work to get a good job won't be worth the cost savings and the boat will be heavier as well. BS1088 is the ticket.
Go for it and have fun.
Gary