pour my keel

[amess]

I know this has been discussed before...
And NO I do not want to attempt to pour myself.

I need help finding a person, foundry, etc. to pour an 1800 pound keel for my project (at a reasonable price!)

Any help will be appreciated. I'm located in the middle of the country and willing to go anywhere to get this done.

Thanks

[George Roberts]

I certainly cannot do this but ...

What do you consider a reasonable price?

Do you have a pattern already?

[amess]

I'm not sure what is reasonable, to be honest. I found a local foundry that would pour iron, but quote was for $3600 to $4000

I don't have that much invested in the boat itself (yet) and thought that was twice as high as it needed to be.

Again, any suggestions. I don't want to attempt to collect 1800 # of wheel weights

[Jay Greer]

Due to Federal Restrictions most commercial keel casting is done outside of the US. The only one I am familiar with is Mars Metals in Ontario Canada.
Jay

[S/V Laura Ellen]

I'll second Mars Keels. I've seen their work, seems good.

[Art Read]

Try calling Non-Ferous Metals in Seattle. I think it cost me $.70/lb with THEIR lead and my mold. Shipping is what might hurt you... Mine fit in the back of the ex-brother-in-law's brand new pick up!

[George Ray]

Previous suggestions seem reasonable/good. You did not mention if you expect the firm you contract to all the pattern work as well as the pour. $$$$$$$

If you want it done for you:
(a) Talk to lead people: I bought lead from www.maycoindustries.com and they have they have several locations around the US. Thier main office seems to be in AL but the lead shot I purchased came from IL.

(b) communicate with people that are into BOAT STUFF and METAL CASTING. Even if none of them deal with lead casting, one or more should have some good leads on who and where you should contact.

Having recently cast over 2000# of lead blocks for ballast using cast iron pots and a heavy duty backyard burner it is surprisingly easy. It would be worth you calling recycle/scrap dealers in your area if only to get an idea of the retail cost lead.






*********************************
BOAT METAL CASTING FOLKS
are contained in this list.
*********************************
Traditional Hardware
Compiled: George Ray (March_2006)
Version: 2.0

notes:
Jan-2007(G.Ray)...Dug out the archive. Updates/info appreciated.
*********************************

Lunenburg Foundry & Engineering
PO Box 1240
Lunenburg NS B0J 2C0
Tel: 902-634-8827
Fax: 902-634-8886
WEB: www.lunenburgfoundry.com (http://www.lunenburgfoundry.com)
Info: mail@lunenburgfoundry.com
******************************

Port Townsend Foundry
251 Otto St.
Port Townsend WA 98368
Tel: (360) 385-6425
Fax: (360) 385-1947
WEB: www.porttownsendfoundry.com (http://www.porttownsendfoundry.com)
Info: ptf@olypen.com
*******************************

Bristol Bronze:
Postal address:
PO Box 101
Tiverton, RI 02878 USA
Tel: 401-625-5224
Fax: 401-624-3991
WEB: www.bristolbronze.com (http://www.bristolbronze.com)
Info: Info@BristolBronze.com
Sales: Sales@bristolBronze.com
********************************

New Found Metals
240 Airport Road
Port Townsend, WA 98368
Tel: (360) 385-3315
Tel: (888) 437-5512
Fax: (360) 385-6097
WEB: www.newfoundmetals.com (http://www.newfoundmetals.com)
Info: nfm@newfoundmetals.com
*******************************

Spartan Marine Hardware
340 Robinhood Road
Georgetown, Maine, 04548
Tel: 800-325-3287
Tel: 207-371-2024
WEB: www.spartanmarine.com (http://www.spartanmarine.com)
Info: info@spartanmarine.com
*******************************

Davey & Co. Marine Hardware
1 Chelmsford Road Ind Est,
Great Dunmow,
Essex,
CM6 1HD
UK
Tel: +44 (0)1371 876361
Fax: +44 (0)1371 873202
********
Distributed in USA by:
R&W Rope Warehouse
39 Tarkiln Place
New Bedford, MA 02745
Tel: (800) 260-8599
For Traditional Rigging Division:
Tel: (866) 577-5505
WEB: www.rwrope.com/contact.htm (http://www.rwrope.com/contact.htm)
Info: traditional_marine@RWrope.com
*******************************

Toplicht
Friesenweg 4
D-22763 Hamburg
Tel. (040) 8890 10-0
Fax: (040) 8890 1011
Looks like a lot of great stuff!
Helps if you read german...
WEB: www.toplicht.de/ (http://www.toplicht.de/)
Info: toplicht@toplicht.de
*******************************

Classic Marine
Lime Kiln Quay,
Woodbridge, Suffolk IP12 1BD UK
Tel from USA: 011 44 1394 380390
Fax from USA: 011 44 1394 388380
WEB: www.classicmarine.co.uk (http://www.classicmarine.co.uk)
Info: info@classicmarine.co.uk
*******************************

J.M. REINECK & SON
9 Willow Street
Hull, Massachusetts 02045-1121
Tel: (781) 925-3312
WEB: www.bronzeblocks.com (http://www.bronzeblocks.com)
Info: jmrandson@AOL.com
*******************************

Accon Marine
(727)572-9202
13665 Automobile Blvd.
Clearwater, FL 33762
WEB: www.acconmarine.com (http://www.acconmarine.com)
Info: info@acconmarine.com
*******************************

Traditional Marine Outfitters
360 St. George Street
Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia
BOS 1A0
www.traditional-marine.com/1-100web.htm (http://www.traditional-marine.com/1-100web.htm)
*******************************

The MYSTIC RIVER FOUNDRY, LLC
Broadway Extension
P.O. Box 121
Mystic, Connecticut 06355 USA
Tel: 860-536-7634
Fax: 860-572-8473
WEB: www.mysticriverfoundry.com (http://www.mysticriverfoundry.com)
Info: mrf@riconnect.com
*******************************
*** end of list ***
*******************************
Edit/Delete Message

[Ray Hurley]

Try:
I. Bloomfield & Sons
14 Lehigh St
Providence, RI 02905-4724
401-941-7361

[rbgarr]

Bloomfield is used by folks around here (fwiw) for small keels.

[ssor]

1800 pounds isn't a very big chunk. Less than 3 cubic feet by my figures. For the price of an old cast iron bath tub and all the wood scrap from your boat building you could get the keel delivered right to your yard even if you used new lead it would still be cheaper than a foundry. Even contract with one of the men from the foundry to do the job in your yard.

[Bob Cleek]

708 pounds per cubic foot is what lead weighs. A little less if you are cutting it with antimony so it won't be too soft and will be easier to drill. For pete's sake.... get a big old iron dutch oven and a bunch of lead scrap. Make your own mold out of wood and just pour the stuff. You can melt it easily at about 700 degrees and ladle and pour it into the mold. Piece of cake... and, yes, you CAN do it!

[amess]

I have called a few more of your suggestions and the price is outrageous from most.
So - a friend and I are looking at doing this (when the temperatures get a bit cooler) in my backyard.

Are there any concerns I should have aside from burning the place down, my health …

How do I get a good mix in the lead to assure it's not too soft? Buy new?

And I'm going to keep looking. Have even considered finding an old boat and scraping the boat for the keel. If only they were the same footprint.

[George Ray]

(1) Seems that once the lead is melted and the trash skimmed off there is very little in the way of fumes. Not to say it is totally safe!
(2) Shrinkage is considerable, the allowance factor is about 1/16" per lin. ft.
(3) Lead FAQ: http://www.marsmetal.com/newpages/faqs.html
(4) Wood is fine for a mold and you coat the inside with a plaster wash. I found I needed to char the inner mold surface, after washing surface w/ plaster, to release the wood gas (smoke) so it would not bubble a lot through the lead as it cooled. I used a propane torch.
(5) Not sure you need to add alloying metals but if you do it is likely to be antimony. Chk w/ Mars metal and they will prob share that info for free w/ no hard feelings.
(6) Call (a) local scrap dealers and ask about $ and availability. (b) Tire dealers often have buckets full of weights and you can get a lot fairly quickly if you contact a number of them and get on their list.so i am told. Offer them a few cents a pound more than the scrap dealer. It is one of the cheapest and easiest forms of lead to deal with.
(7) Lead gums up saw teeth. If you use a hand saw it should be a RIP blade, not a crosscut blade, and use kerosene for lube. Chainsaw is one of the best ways to cut it. Put a tarp down to catch the shavings so as not so pollute the soil.

[Jay Greer]

If you pour your own, make sure that you build a well bunkerd mold above ground level.
One guy I knew just dug a hole below grade to the shape he needed.
He didn't count on the gophers that dug tunnels into the form. It took him six weeks to dig the lead out of his yard!
Jay

[Chan]

Around here the scrap yards are paying .25 a pound for clean lead, .20 a pound for tire wieghts. The tire wieghts already have antimony in the mix. I wouldn't know how to add it. New lead will be quite soft and cost quite a bit more than clean scrap lead I would imagine.
Melting down tire wieghts is time consuming but it gives you some experience.
I've been collecting tire wieghts and melting them into 20# units for a couple of years, I probably have 2,000 #, no they are not for sale.
It's a good way to spend some time on a weekend when nothing else is going on.
Don't breathe the fumes and be wicked careful.

[donald branscom]

I have poured 4,500 keels. It is no problem

20 gallon propane tank. B3 single burner from cermacs supply house.
Safety gear mask boots ,gloves,leather welders jacket. Outdoors in fresh air. Upwind of coarse.Use a small crucable. You need a helper.

remember a 12x12x12 block of lead weighs about 720lbs.

Sometimes you can stack the lead into the form and pour molten lead all around to seal in the scraps, and that way you will not have to heat all of the lead. Works very well.

Two common mistakes.
Trying to heat too much lead at once.
Trying to pour thru a pipe. The lead will cool and freeze in the pipe before it gets there. Forget the pipe just pour into the mold direct.

[amess]

"Sometimes you can stack the lead into the form and pour molten lead all around to seal in the scraps, and that way you will not have to heat all of the lead. Works very well."

can Lead be poured in layers? How much of the volume can be pre cast, solid pieces?

This would save a lot of melting time

[Rational Root]

I looked into this a while back, and from what I've read ---- not personal experience ---

Molten Lead poured on top of _ANY_ water even a damp patch will cause the water to flash to steam. This will cause the lead to splatter - think small expolsive going off under the lead. That's just going to be real _UNPLEASANT_

Be aware that you will contaminate the area you are working in. If you have young kids who play in your yard, then that might be the wrong place to do the melting.

Lead Vapour is unpleasant. Buy a decent respirator, not a disposable paint mask, and stay upwind.

Don't heat the lead any longer than you have to, soon after it's all molten you start to generate vapour. That vapour condences and comtaminates the area.

Assume the lead will splash and dress appropriately. Full face screen, leather apron.

The apron is important in that you can take it off quickly if it gets a big splash, or even hold it away from you. Heavy cloths are not sufficient protection in that they cannot be discarded before the lead burns through to your skin.

Wash properly after working with lead before you eat, drink or smoke.


In the end, I only needed a small amount for a centerboard, so I'm going with lead shot and epoxy. (2/3 the density of lead due to random sphere packing)

[Don Victore]

I have poured a few keels it's not that difficult. If you have some woodworking skills then it's not that big of a deal. It really isn't. The majority of the focus is your mold. Melting the lead can be done over a wood fire if need be. Sodium silicate (water glass) is a decent refractory. I have thought about using oil bonded sand for a keel mold has anyone done this? Oil bonded sand is not very expensive. I get it for about 40 bucks per 60 pounds. and its reusable. if highly compacted Because of the weight in an open mold I think that gases escapement would not be a problem. I think I'll try this out for fun in the near future here.

Victore

[ssor]

When we used to make babbit hammers, we would heat the metal until it would char a maple tongue depressor. You have to get it very hot before it starts vaporizing. Remember that plumbers used to caulk the joints in cast iron pipes with oakum and lead, often in very confined spaces.

[George Ray]

(1) I found that pouring lead into wooden molds for the first time the "SMOKE/OFF-Gas" was often a pretty violent bubbling and it would continue as the lead cooled and cause roughness and weirdness on the surface of the lead. The second time the mold was used it was quiet as a mill pond. That's when I started to char the molds first and then plaster wash.
(2) When the lead cools it shrinks and the faster it cools the more pronounced a depression forms in the center of the top. Adding a bit of molten lead as it cools and slowing the cooling rate minimize the pronounced sunken/low spot on the top.

[Jay Greer]

There is very little shrinkage of lead keels. The common practice is to leave a bit extra on top. We then power plane it flat.
Jay

[ssor]

The amount of shrinkage increases as you increase the temperature of the pour. There are infrared heat detecting thermometers now that don't require direct contact.

[Bob Cleek]

I'd advise anybody who is going to pour a keel to play with the lead a bit first. Molten lead is strange stuff. It will seemingly take "all day" to get a twenty-five pound hunk to start to melt, but once the melting begins, it all goes liquid surprisingly quickly. Once you have a pot hot and molten, the additional solid lead added melts very fast. On the other hand, if you add too big a solid chunk to the pot, you'll see the molten lead turn solid instead and the waiting begins again. There's a "touch" to it that comes from experience.

I would not advise pouring in batches. The lead needs to be uniformly hot and a big cool chunk isn't going to necessarily weld to the next batch poured. It may well simply solidify the molten lead immediately when it hits the previous batch, producing a big mess and a cold joint. If you keep a fairly decent sized pot going, you can add as you pour and stay ahead of the cooling.

You should pour higher in the mold than you plan to need to allow for shrinkage, which will be more pronounced on the top of the casting. Keep adding to the depression as it cools. If you build a wooden mold with a level top edge all around, it is very easy to simply mount your router on a "sled" that rests across the top edges of the mold and rout the top surface flat and level using the mold edges as the reference.

Yes, be very careful not to allow any moisture into the pour or it will vaporize and spit and splatter. Another often overlooked faus pas when melting scrap lead is air voids. A friend once was melting a batch of salvaged lead pipe. As is often the case, the scrap was twisted and bent double. He chucked a length of bent double pipe into the molten lead in the pipe OPEN ENDS DOWN. The air trapped in the loop of pipe immediately expanded and blew molten lead all over the place. No moisture, no air pockets, is the rule.

The standard for lead keel castings is 95 percent lead and five percent antimony. If you use recycled keels and/or wheel weight castings, you will be fine. Remember that the cost of lead is mostly in the handling of it. It is heavy, after all. "Clean" pigs will be surprisingly expensive. (That guy who paid me a dime a pound for a couple of tons of pig a couple of years ago seems to have gotten a good deal!) On the other hand, if you look around, you may find scrap lead rather inexpensively. However, I've discovered that wheel weights aren't all they used to be cracked up to be. Most shops now are required by EPA rules and so on to recycle them with a licensed recycler and are now used to getting paid for them. It also takes a hell of a lot of them to pour a keel. You may find a five gallon mud bucket of them in a gas station or tire shop now and then, but it takes a long time to fill those buckets. You can sometimes find a stash of batteries, but they are full of nasty acid and you have to bust them up to get at the lead. More work than it's worth unless you are running a recycling plant that's designed for that. Again, because of the damn eco-nazi's, miscellaneous lead scrap is getting harder to find. Lead pipe is getting extinct, except for certain chemical engineering applications. I've heard of some guys scoring lead sheeting from remodeling jobs on hospital x-ray room walls, but now that it has become "toxic," that too requires a licensed hazmat contractor who is probably going to want top dollar for the scrap. So far, at present, the best source of keel lead seems to be old sailboat keels themselves. The knackers sell it to the scrap guys, but you can sometimes buy it from a yard rather reasonably. You do have to chainsaw it up into pieces small enough to move, though, and that is a LOT of work. (Lay out blue plastic tarps and collect the cutting bits... you'll have a surprising amount of lead there as well.) I have known guys who bought junker boats for peanuts, or even simply towed them out of the muck for free, just to score the lead in the keels. That is really the best way to score a lot of lead at the least price. You can chainsaw up the hull and burn it to melt the lead, as well!

[DerekW]

Lots of good info above. Perhaps try talking to the recyclers. The place nearest to me which re-processes old truck and car batteries melts down the lead and pumps it into ingot forms, using a nozzle like a gas-station hose. Well, not exactly like a gas station hose, but you get the idea.

Anyway, they were happy to pump their lead into my wooden form for a price lower than the scrap-yard cost of the metal.

Just another option....

[Chan]

I'd love to find a derelict boat and cut up the keel but boy would I feel guilty if it showed up in save a classic.
Don't pour in stages. Cold joints will just fall apart unless you have the underlying lead melted again, which would defeat the purpose. I learned that the easy way pouring small drafting ducks in stages they just split apart at the cold joints.