Keeping waste to a minimum while re-sawing for a cutlist??

[dmede]

I need some advice on how to set up my cut list so that I can keep waste to a minimum. The lumber store I am going to get my WRC from (http://www.jackelenterprises.com/inventory2.htm ) sells it in 1" boards at various widths and lengths while the boards I will need to get out of them are 9/16" 1/2" 5/16" 1/4" and 3/16" in various lengths and widths.

I would like to set it up so that I can resaw some of the boards in such a way that one side is the right thickness for my planks while the other side is ok for say the bulkheads. For instance, could I get my 5/16" planks and my 3/16" decking material out of the same 1" boards? What combination of resaw thickness’ will get me the most from each 1" board? Anybody here good with this sort of thing, it hurts my brain a bit.

Dave

[Dave Fleming]

What kind of boat? Are those dimensions NET?

Stuff like that there would be a help in getting accurate answers.

[dmede]

Sorry Dave. The boat is a 12’ fiddle-head canoe. The dimensions are as stated in the first post (1" thick "full sawn" stock, my boards will be 9/16" 1/2" 5/16" 1/4" and 3/16" thick). I can put up the full board dimensions (length and width) if that will help but since what I wanted to know was how to deal with getting various thickness’ out of 1" thick stock I though it would only complicate the question.

I guess the specific questions here are what do I need to leave for the kerf thickness of the band saw and can I have the boards cut to their exact dimensions or should the boards be roughly cut to thickness and then planed to guarantee accuracy and consistency in thickness?

[Venchka]

I don't have any answers. I would appreciate Dave's and any other helpful answers to your question. I have a question for you: listed below is the lumber inventory. Why are you limiting your choice to 4/4 boards? Seems to me that you could buy thicker boards and cut off the thinner pieces you need. What am I missing? Are the larger boards harder to handle? Is there a large penalty for the 8/4 and up boards?
SOFTWOODS INVENTORY

WESTERN RED CEDAR (MG,VG)
4/4 7/8 - 15/16 #2 CLEAR
6” WIDE
8” WIDE
10” WIDE
12” WIDE

8/4 FULL SAWN #2 CLEAR (VG)
4” WIDE
6” WIDE
8” WIDE
10” WIDE
12”WIDE
4x4 #2 CLEAR (MG)
4 x 6 & Wider #2 Clear
6X6 #2 CLEAR
6X8 #2 CLEAR
6X10 #2 CLEAR
6X12 #2 CLEAR
8X8 #2 CLEAR
10X10 #2 CLEAR
12X12 #2 CLEAR

[ 06-08-2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Bruce Hooke]

The only way I know of to go at this sort of thing is to list each and every part you need (or groups of parts if you need lots of pieces that are roughly the same size), with the rough-out lengths, widths and thicknesses. Then start looking at ways to combine various parts into different boards. If the wood comes in random lengths and widths then things get even messier because you can't really figure things out until you are at the yard and can see what's available.

As far as splitting boards the long way to get two boards with smaller thickness -- you should probably allow at least 1/8" for lost wood along each sawcut unless you are really good at resawing on the bandsaw and have a good, well-tuned bandsaw. From there you can figure out based on what you need, how to split up the various boards.

I don't know of any clever algoithms to solve all this. So, the approach I take is to just start with the biggest pieces I need and work down from there, seeing where I can fit in the smaller pieces. Try to avoid getting too fancy with how you split apart boards because the fancier you try to be with your cutting plan the more likely you are to screw up and waste more wood. If you end up with big chunks of unused wood (or with having to turn a lot of wood into sawdust to get down to the thickness you need) then you know that you need to rework your plan. If you end up with not much waste then you are probably in pretty good shape.

[George Roberts]

dmede ---

I think I understand your question.

Take some calipers and measure the stock thickness. I allow 1/8" for resawing and then planing but it all depends on your skill.

So if the WRC is 1" rough and cleans up at 7/8" - subtract 1/8" resawing allowance which will leave 3/4" to divide between two boards, 3/16 & 9/16 or 1/4 & 1/2, or 3/8 & 3/8.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by dmede:
I guess the specific questions here are what do I need to leave for the kerf thickness of the band saw and can I have the boards cut to their exact dimensions or should the boards be roughly cut to thickness and then planed to guarantee accuracy and consistency in thickness?

Are you having someone else cut the wood to size? I don't think most lumberyards will resaw wood into thinner planks. Most places I've dealt with will only thickness plane stuff down to a thinner size.

If you are resawing yourself on the bandsaw (or if someone else is resawing for you on a bandsaw) then, yes, you do need to allow a little extra. The cut surface will be a little rough and there will also likely be a few wobbles. So, you will want to run the boards through a thickness planer once you cut them on the bandsaw. If you don't have a thickness planer then you are looking at a lot of hand planing to get nice smooth boards of the right thickness.

[dmede]

Venchka, I was using the 1" for my question because I think it will be esier for me to figure out (not too bright ya know) and because it made for an easier example in order to get some info on kerf allowance etc. Once I figure out how to go about planning what I can get out of a given board I may plan to take it out of thicker stock if that saves money.

Bruce, Jackel Enterprises says they will resaw to 3/16" and surface plane to 1/8". They have a $40 minimum for milling and charge $100 per hour so I am really trying to keep all of this to a minimum. I don't have a band saw or planer, though I may buy a used planer for this project.

From what you guys are telling me it sounds like I should allow for 1/8" kerf between each cut and each board should be cut slightly thicker than needed in order to plane to a nice final dimenson. Thicker by how much? 1/16" - 1/8"?

[JimConlin]

If there's no bandsaw, a reasonably strong 10" table saw can be used to slice up to 6" width, with more material lost to dust, close to 1/4" after planing.

[Bob Smalser]

Ya gotta have a good bandsaw to both resaw and plane reliably within an 8th. Like 16" or larger with a card-carrying, wide resaw blade.

Most home shop owners should probably plan for a quarter.

[dmede]

Thanks all, I think Ive figured her all out. I'm using Illustrator to help me draw up a visiual cut list based on 2" thick WRC boards. It's working out pretty well.

BTW the shop says they get a 1/16" kerf on their band saw.

[imported_Steven Bauer]

When I built Harry's Thistle (almost the same hull as Fiddlehead) I got out my planking stock by resawing full 1" cedar to make two 5/16" planks. I cut them out at a friend's shop on a 14" Delta with the 6" riser blocks. Some of the planks were 11" wide. Same with the deck pieces. I don't think anyone has noticed but the whole boat is bookmatched. If you look closely the grain in the planking and decking matches port and starboard. Have you seen the Minnow album?
I've posted links here a few times.

Steven

[Bruce Hooke]

If Jackel Enterprises is doing the resawing and planing then the key is to talk to them about:

- The kerf their bandsaw leaves (which you say is 1/16")
- How much they then need to plane off to get a smooth finished surface after they resaw the stock on the bandsaw, and
- What sort of level of quality they work to.

Assuming their planer will leave a good enough surface and assuming they can do accurate work, which, if they can resaw down to 3/16" I expect they can, then I would certainly aim for the finished stock to come out at pretty much exactly the final thicknesses you need. In other words, if you need, say, a certain amount of 1/2" stock then I would have them cut and thickness that stock to 1/2", or maybe 17/32" if they can work that accurately and if it's really important the stock finish out to exactly the listed dimension. If you have them go 1/16" or more over then you will have a lot of work to do by hand taking the stock down to 1/2".

Now, having said that I want to add an important caveat -- for some parts it may be important that the stock be dead flat and true. This is where finding out the tolerances they work to really comes into play. Do they see what they do as rough sawing or do they produce finish planed, cabinet grade results? For example, if you resaw some stock and then just feed it through the thickness planer or wide-belt sander a warped board can simply become a thinner, but still warped board. To really get it right you have to resaw the board, run one side across a jointer to get it flat and THEN feed it through a thickness planer to flatten the other side.

In case I'm not being clear, the fundumantel question is can you expect them to do basically what you would do in the shop if you had the necessary tools and experience or are they working to "usual lumberyard standards" or somewhere inbetween? For example, if I had a board in my shop that I was going to resaw and plane and joint to 1/2" I would aim to have the board come out pretty much exactly 1/2" thick at the end of the process. On the other hand, if I were buying standard lumberyard stock I would need to add quite a bit depending on the quality of the stock -- so if I, say, needed anything over about 13/16" finished thickness and the stock was rough sawn I would probably go up to 1 1/4" rough stock because 1" rough stock would probably need to be planed down to by at least 3/16" to get a smooth board. So, it ALL depends on the quality of the work the lumberyard does and the quality of the wood in question. Without knowing that you really can't say whether the right extra amount of thickness to allow is 0" or 1/4".

Another thought: I would try to avoid going to significantly thicker stock than 1" as the starting point (i.e., the boards from which your stock is sawn) even if it means a little more waste because the thicker the stock the more likely it is to warp and do other annoying things when it is resawn into thin pieces. I wouldn't be that worried about going to 1 1/4" stock or maybe even 1 1/2" stock but I would really hesitate to go thicker than that, especially for the really thin stock you need. Of course thicker stock also means more cuts for them to make so that's another reason to aim for sticking to thinner stock as your starting point.

Yet another thought -- if you just need a small amount of some of the thicknesses listed I would probably group that with the next thicker stock to cut down on the number of different thicknesses they need to produce. This will also give you more freedom to rearrange parts on the boards to work around hidden defects that crop up after the wood has been resawn. Hand planing 1/16" or even 1/8" or more off a few board feet of stock is not a big deal. Hand planing 1/16" off all of your planking stock IS a going to be much more of a pain.

[dmede]

Steven, yeah Ive seen your Thistle, very nice. I have it bookmarked and look at it every once in a while for inspiration and to keep me motivated on my Fiddlehead project. Thank you for sharing your pics.

Bruce, thats a lot of good information, thanks. I'll have to wait until I'm at the lumber yard to see how well they can mill the wood. For what it's worth they seem very confident and knowledgeable. Also I wont know exactly the quality of the boards until I see them but they are listed on their site as being high quality "#2 clear vertical grain". I was expecting that if they could cut the wood to almost exactly the dimensions I need I could then skip having them surfaced and just finish sand them once installed? Your point about large peices of stock causing too much warp is a good one. But will it matter much in the case of such thin planking where the planks will be pretty flexible and will be wraped around a few bulkheads (i.e. not needed to be flat or straight)? If those are concerns than I may have them cut to something over my finish thinkness and I can do the surface planing myself (good excuse to buy a bench planer).

My solution may be to do this in small batches. I might go pick up the wood for just the bottom planks, bulkheads and midship frame. I can get an idea of how this will work going through jackel and how best to plan the wood purchases and cutting before getting into buying the stock for planks and covering boards.

[SC-Lion]

Hi Dave,

I had Jackel re-saw 40bf of White Oak for me last month (after we emailed on the Spruce). I didn’t have them run the stock through a planer they just did the re-sawing. They did an excellent job. The job was on quote, although it was expensive .

I can’t speak to their planning work, but they cater to cabinet makers and the like. I’ve bought lumber from them for somewhere around 10 years and they have always been straight shooters and good to deal with. I would suggest bringing (or sending) a printout of comments above, in particular Bruce’s, and asking their opinion on how they can best meet your needs.

-Gary

[Bruce Hooke]

Dave, I think you are on the right track. I agree that from the sounds of it this lumberyard can probably crank out wood that is pretty much ready for sanding. This does mean that they would probably need to surface the wood in some way before it leaves their shop because wood straight off any bandsaw I've seen will not be quite ready for sanding. If they are just bandsawing then I would allow 1/32" or so for planing and sanding (so 1/16" per board if both sides of a piece will be bandsawed or 1/16" per cut to allow for surfacing both sides of the cut).

As to warp, I don't think this will be an issue because, as you noted, the planks are bent and flexed a fair amount anyway. Where it would become an issue is if the planks warped by say 1/2" across their width, which seems very unlikely to me. If they did do this then, of course, it would be pretty much impossible to level them off with a plane, BUT it is likely that a couple weeks of drying would bring them back to close enough to flat to be useable. This issue might be something to talk to them about. They should know how their wood behaves when it is cut into thin pieces like this.

I like the idea of doing the order in stages. This will give you a chance to check out their work before you get the whole order, and it will also allow you to make additions to the subsequent orders when you need an additional piece or two, without having to pay a premium in the form or a minimum shop charge becuase you just need one piece.