Small Sail on Banks, ie Banks Fishermen

[perc]

I understand that a Banks Dory is not as suitable for sailing as, say, a Swampscott Dory. From what I've read, fishermen returning to the ship with their catch would sometimes hoist a small sail and use their oar as a rudder. Naturally, the wind would have to be going in their direction, since their Banks Dory wouldn't have a keel.

I can have a sail rig made for under $600. It would be a simple Marconi rig, that would slip over the mast in a sleeve. It sounds like a neat idea, but I wonder how practical it would be in practice. The boat would be a 17 ft. Banks Dory, without modification for sailing, other than the sail and mast (just over 7 1/2 ft long), and a hole in a thwart for the mast.

Has anyone tried this?

[Todd Bradshaw]

A marconi would be a rather curious choice for a minimalist rig, especially if lack of other items(centerboard, rudder, etc.) means that you're only going to be able to sail downwind. Something low that goes up and down a lot faster might be a better choice. If you're willing to toss tradition out the window, the best and most controllable downwind sail that I know of for minimal applications is the "Twins" system from Balogh Sail Designs. It far outperforms most other downwind rigs and the ability to feather the power it provides can make it much safer in marginal conditions.

http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html

[Thad]

leg o' mutton

[Thorne]

Well, for a 7.5' mast you'd probably need something like a spritsail rig to get more than 20 sq. ft. of sail up. Why that length? You'll lose at least 18" to the inside of the boat from step to partner, so even if the canvas swept the gunwales you'd only have 6 feet of mast or less.

I have a fairly small sailing rig for my dory skiff, the el cheapo setup of a $45 very used Sabot sail at 38 sq. ft. and a 16' fir mast made from two 2x4's glued together and shaped oval. If you want an inexpensive marconi rig, set up either with a standard boom or spritboom, this is the way to go (at least for testing).

Here it is on the original Sabot mast and boom, since broken and replaced with the stronger home-made mast -- not a lot of canvas for that size boat...but up a lot higher than you'd probably want for downwind sailing.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The little boat in my avatar flies a 33 sq. ft. boomless sprit on an 8' mast. With such a short stick the sails sits quite low. A 7½' mast seems, to me, to be so short as to be impractical.
A sprit rig can carry the most sail for any given mast length. It's, also, ideal if you want a set-up that can be easily stored in the boat.
My set-up cost less than $250 with a professionally made Mack sail.
All the necessary dimensions are contained in the plans for the D4 dinghy which is a free download at;
http://www.boatplans-online.com/freeplans.php

A sail of this size is not going to drive a 17' boat very fast. I hope you are never in a hurry.

[rbgarr]

Another option: Try searching past issues of WB to see if Sam Manning wrote an article on the sail rig for his Banks dory. He is still living in the Camden, Maine area.

[mmd]

From the Dory Shop (Lunenburg) website:

The TRAWL dory
The original and famous "BANK DORY". Able to carry a one ton payload and keep two men safe in a winter gale on the North Atlantic. Easily rowed and sailed this is truly a classic.

Bottom length - 15'.



From my photo album, a 15' Banks dory sailing in Lunenburg harbour:

[nedL]

Growing up I had an ancient old 16' banks dory that had been built with a cneterboard, it had been given to me as a derelick with no sailing rig. I purchased the plans for a sailing version of a 17' Swamscott dory from Mystic Seaport and scaled the sailing rig down a bit. It turned out quite nicely & was a lot of fun to sail for a good number of years, she'd make about four points off the wind. It was a low aspect marconi rig. (I cut down an old mainsail off an Alden Barnacle for her, - lots of canvas to spare!.)

I'd post a pic. but I can't access my online albums from here, sorry

I had meant to add (but forgot to) that with the board up she did nothing but go sideways nicely. :-)

[Todd Bradshaw]

The rigs that you guys mention would probably all work to some extent on the boat if he was to build a full sailing rig - but - he specifically stated that the only mods to the boat would be adding the sail, the mast and a hole in the thwart to step the mast through. Without adding the rest of the package (centerboard or leeboards and some sort of halfway seerious steering system) it's not going to sail like anything shown in those nice photos and is only going to work decently when sailing pretty much dead downwind.

If he was adding the whole package, I'd probably go for a sprit or lugsail, maybe a Leg-O-Mutton (which usually looks really nice on a dory) but for downwind only without the foils, the common fore-and-aft sails aren't going to do an awful lot and there are sails specifically designed for that job. You could even rig a little squaresail, but I think you're going to need to convince him to do a full sailing conversion, rather than just step a mast, before those other sail types really enter the equation.

[mmd]

Todd, neither of the dories in the photos I posted have a centreboard or leeboard. The first (small) photo is from the Dory Shop's website so I cannot attest to its sailing ability, but the larger photo I took, and I can assure you that the dory went to windward. Not well, mind you, and with a fair amount of leeway, but it did go to windward.

(Does the motor in a motorwell count as a centreboard? Check the little photo closely... <grin>)

[Todd Bradshaw]

Well enough to be seriously considering dropping $500-$600 into a mast and sail? Sounds more like half-a-grand worth of frustration to me.

[Thorne]

I hear you, and only put the marconi stuff in because he asked.

I like the idea of a small squaresail, particularly if the top end of the stick is going to be 6' or less above the gunwales...

[J. Dillon]

Saw this little rig at the WBS 03 in Maine. I think it's all the rig ya need.

JD

[Todd Bradshaw]

This might be another good possibility. I found the pic while surfing one day and saved it because this modified Chinese lug had nice proportions. It would still need a longer mast than seven feet, but it would go up and down very fast, it would fit in the boat when furled, the battens and light boom would support the clew corner when it's out over the side and it has enough sail area in front of the mast to square-off reasonably well on a downwind run. With the eventual addition of some foils, it might be a nice, simple, all-round rig...in kind of a cross-culture way.

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi there Perk
I like your idea !!!
first yes you are right about the bankers sailing home to the schooner. The way Ive been told is the schooner sailed along droping of the dorys as they went the first dory away was furthest up wind the schooner would then anchor down wind and wait for the dory's to sail back to it. near as I can tell the sprit rig was typical but I'd think the leg-o-mutton was pretty common as well.
Yes a dory will sail up wind. I built a sprit s'l schooner rig for a 19 ft (15 ft on bottom) banks dory and sailed it last september from Salisbury Ma to Gloucster for the Govenors cup schooner races. To help our dorry sail closser to the wind I used twenty 4 1/2 gallon plastic water jugs totaling around 600lbs of ballast and putting our dory a good two planks down. with this rig we were ABLE TO POINT ABOUT 75% off the wind and made very little leeway. I did fabricate a rudder for the boat but we had no centerboard. The dory sailed best heeled with it's rail on the water and chine down deep.
for over 200 photos of dory sailing please see my website at
http://dansdories.googlepages.com
Dan[img][/img]
Gloucster Harbour (Ten Pound Island in background, I'm waveing)

[Canoeyawl]

May, 1952 National Geographic / Alan Villiers photo
Portuguese dories of the coast of Greenland

Every kind of rig imaginable has been used on the banks dory

[perc]

I'll have to look up a 'leg o mutton' rig. I'm not familiar with it. The Marconi setup isn't optimal, I'll grant you that. It isn't the first choice of the shop that'd make ot for me. But, my interest in what the fisherman might have used is why the Marconi was suggested. It wouldn't have a boom. The sail would be 7' 8 1/4" high x 6' 1 1/2"
(no boom) x 8' 4".

It's interesting that some have had such success sailing without a center board on a Banks Dory. This boat will be 17', which I am advised is what I'd want for rowing alone offshore, beyond the bay.

Still haven't decided on 8 1/2 or 9 ft oars. The beam is 4' 11".

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK, let's start by getting our terms right. Granted, the names for these sail types have been blurred by confusion, regional variations and mis-use to the point of them all being acceptable in most circles. If you say you're going to use a Marconi main, everybody here pretty much gets the picture, but there are some differences between the types of 3-sided sails. There is also considerable overlap where the various forms blend together and get pretty nebulous, but for the record:

Marconi sails are three-sided and got their name because all the wires and rigging used to support and tune their masts reminded people of radio towers. Marconi himself actually had nothing to do with designing sailing rigs. As far as I know, there isn't a specific minimum aspect ratio listed in their definition (aspect ratio is the ratio of the sail's height to it's mean width), but they tend toward the taller, skinnier side in comparison to most traditional rigs. A boat like a Star is a good example of a Marconi rig with it's triangular main, two headstays, inner shrouds, outer shrouds, sometimes jumper stays and both upper and lower running backstays, all supporting a mast that's about 33' long and as bendy as a noodle.

A Bermuda rig is similar and also three-sided, but may have a somewhat lower aspect ratio (shorter & proportionally wider) and usually has less complicated rigging or sometimes no wires at all. A Laser would be a good example of a basic, simple, unstayed Bermuda. Once you start adding headsails to make a sloop, along with wires to help stabilize the rig your Bermuda mainsail starts looking a lot like a Marconi, though I'm not aware of any specific limit where you look enough like a radio tower to have to call yourself a Marconi. In any case, if you're sticking a 3-sided sail on a small boat with a minimum of rigging, it's probably more accurate to call it a Bermuda (Bermudan?) rig than a Marconi. Another fairly common term used for a 3-sided mainsail is a "jibheaded" main.

If you want to familiarize yourself with the Leg-O-Mutton sail, just continue what you're doing - because the sail you just gave measurements for is one! They are also 3-sided, generally use little or no rigging and have the lowest aspect ratios of the bunch. In some cases their profile almost looks like a square that's been cut on a diagonal, with a short-ish luff and a long-ish foot. They can be rigged with a conventional boom, a sprit-boom or no boom at all. To improve downwind sailshape when the sail is out over the side, a boomless Leg-O-Mutton may use some sort of pole as a temporary boom. It's fairly common to build them with the aft end of the sail's foot and/or the boom raised a bit, rather than having a level foot. This can do a couple things for you. It increases headroom and may improve visibility for the sailor trying to see under the sail and it can also help keep the clew corner and/or boom's tail out of the water when the boat is sailing off the wind with the sail eased out if the hull is heeling.

This is the sail that your dimensions would build.



It's shape would be accurate from a historical perspective, but it is awfully tiny if you really expect it to move a 17' by nearly 5' wide boat in anything short of a real blow. It's not unusual to put two to three times that amount of sail area on a canoe. What was the thinking for using at that sized sail on that particular boat?

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi all
great photo from Canoe yawl...look how similar the shape of those sails is to a sunfish sail.
how about building a wooden mast and boom for a sunfish sail or similar then just lace the sail to the mast (no lateen)
Todd is right-on about the sail you describe being way too small to move a dory (a sunfish sail is 75 sq ft. you are talking around 23 sq. ft.) do a scale drawing of the sail then lay it on a 17 ft dory plans drawing, it will look ridiculously tiny.
Dan