Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    1,929

    Question 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    If any of you are familar w/ the 2.4 M boat I am looking for plans to build one in wood. (It's basically about 12-13 feet long, keelboat and you sit down inside it) Disabled sailors sail it straight up against able bodied sailors. I had a chance to try one out years ago and the sensation of sailing INCHES off the water surface is way cool!

    I also was wondering if something like the Dark Harbor's could be adapted to say half size....

    Hmmmm.

    Your thoughts????
    The only difference between [where I work] and the TITANIC is... The TITANIC had a band.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Insane Diego
    Posts
    1,325

    Default

    I've been looking for plans for years, and no one really seems to have them available. The only thing that came close was the Swedish Stradavarius, and there, the designer wanted to sell molds, not plans. S&S said that the price for designing one (they had no stock plan) would be the equivalent of the price for a 6mR or an 8mR, as they'd have to do the same amount of work (including tank testing!) no matter the size.

    In the 2.4mR world, the thought is to go with a Norlin Mk III, as they seem to always win. The class came very close to becoming a one design because of this just a few years ago.

    On the other hand... see the Dragonship/Meerkat thread in building and design. After all, it's only a 12 foot boat, if it doesn't work out quite right, and you're not planning on winning regattas, how much are you out? The only thing stopping me from doing the same is time.

    Info on the rule, how the boat is measured, what is required to become a "real" 2.4mR is found on the 2.4mR web site.

    To answer your second question, while scaling down directly wouldn't work, there's no reason that as you're designing you're own, you can't make it look more "classic". Classic topsides with modern below the waterline is the latest thing in the 8mR class. For that matter, I can no longer find the web site, but if anyone has copies of Sailing World from 2004, somewhere in there, a company announced the design and manufacture of a J Boat scaled down to 15 feet LOA, sailed like a 2.4mR. They wanted an awful lot of money for it (which is probably why I can't find their website anymore), but it did look like a lot of fun!
    The Strength of the Pack is the Wolf... And the Strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    54,846

    Default

    I don't know if its similar enough for your desires but I think Todd Bradshaw has some experience with mini 12 meter boats. Might be worth asking.

    Last edited by Paul Pless; 03-17-2007 at 10:26 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    jarvenpaa,finland
    Posts
    845

    Default classic 2.4 meter

    Hey you are in luck
    just last year Redskycraft of Finland launched a 2.4m that was designed to the 2.4 rule and has long counter, traditional rudder and oregon pine deck. looks like a late 30's boat .It is wood, was stripplanked and I know they still have the molds.
    It was painted dark blue and is a real head turner.
    Allan.Savolainen@redskycraft.com.

    cant find any webshots of it but it is really sweet
    There's one rich man onboard and there's twentyfive poor men and they enjoy it more then the rich man does -Jim Kilroy when asked if yacht racing is a rich mans sport.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    ?
    Posts
    479

    Default

    Jay Benford has a 12 ft keelboat here:
    http://www.benford.us/index.html?scp/

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,996

    Default

    Mine was an Illusion Twelve. Absolute fun!





    I don't know much about building 2.4's, but do think you would really enjoy it as it's a very different and interesting perspective on sailing.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ile de la Réunion (Océan Indien)
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Tabor (sailordave) View Post
    If any of you are familar w/ the 2.4 M boat I am looking for plans to build one in wood. (It's basically about 12-13 feet long, keelboat and you sit down inside it) Disabled sailors sail it straight up against able bodied sailors. I had a chance to try one out years ago and the sensation of sailing INCHES off the water surface is way cool!

    I also was wondering if something like the Dark Harbor's could be adapted to say half size....

    Hmmmm.

    Your thoughts????
    something like an old projectt of mine 404 cm for 256 Kgs disp.



    and some scanned old vue of an illusion



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    1,929

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Z. View Post
    To answer your second question, while scaling down directly wouldn't work, there's no reason that as you're designing you're own, you can't make it look more "classic". Classic topsides with modern below the waterline is the latest thing in the 8mR class. For that matter, I can no longer find the web site, but if anyone has copies of Sailing World from 2004, somewhere in there, a company announced the design and manufacture of a J Boat scaled down to 15 feet LOA, sailed like a 2.4mR. They wanted an awful lot of money for it (which is probably why I can't find their website anymore), but it did look like a lot of fun!

    I think I saw that article! And you're right, they wanted a stupid amount of $$$

    I would just like to build something that will turn some eyes and be fun to sail. Not looking to race. And while scaling down comes w/ it's own set of issues, I was only thinking actual hull shape and doing some kind of bolt on keel.

    I am just looking for something I can take anywhere there's water and rig it quickly. I sold my old Laser and contemplated getting another... but I think I want to try something different. And I have the 30 footers in my sailing club for when I want to go out w/ friends.

    Thanks for the suggestions. Something to mull over....
    The only difference between [where I work] and the TITANIC is... The TITANIC had a band.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Bacalar, Mexico
    Posts
    850

    Default

    Get an old Snipe, or build one. We go as fast as the lasers with two on board. And many times as I hiked out in the luffs my back would get dipped in the river.
    Lots of fund, designed in wood, plans still available in wood. Trailerable and lots of support for masts and sails and hardware.

    Going fast on small boats is a blast.
    Jimmy
    __________
    Loving Living on Lake Bacalar.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,996

    Default

    When I first got my Mini-12, my wife liked it, but didn't care for all the lines and gizmos that I had rigged it with. I then pondered building some sort of simpler sloop - maybe something more traditional and classy-looking and the Dark Harbor came to mind. It's certainly do-able, but as soon as you start calculating the room needed to put an oversized skipper inside vs. the buoyancy that is created by doing so and the amount of ballast needed to keep the hull down, the design process gets pretty interesting. Maybe with the new computer programs like Bruce and Chad are using for the Meerkat it's somewhat easier. I did mine with my old drawing program and it was a lot of work. I eventually decided that a tandem would be more fun and then went slightly bananas on it. Luckily, I grew out of that phase before actually trying to build it.






    Another doodle was a 9' Mini Catboat, basically built on a small plywood dinghy hull. I think it would work without ballast, other than some weight in the bow for trim, and the rigging would be a lot faster at the ramp.


    In general, I find sailing little, yacht-tender-sized dinghies extremely tedious. This one could at least be sailed from a comfortable position. You can see the files for them in PDF form here:

    http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Miniboats/
    Last edited by Todd Bradshaw; 03-20-2007 at 02:30 AM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Insane Diego
    Posts
    1,325

    Default

    Todd,
    You keep showing pictures of that schooner... but you won't let anyone build it! Not fair!
    The Strength of the Pack is the Wolf... And the Strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,996

    Default

    My main reservation with the schooner has always been that there isn't enough interior volume left over to get big enough air tanks in there for positive flotation - combined with the potential entrapment hazard of all that rigging. Tends to make the liability thing a bit too twitchy for my taste. These little keelboats are surprisingly stiff as you approach high angles of heel and you're not going to flip one, but they're low enough that it's possible to bury the rail and cockpit edge and take water. I can remember a couple of times when I sailed across the biggest part of Lake Mendota in the Illusion. When you're two miles from the nearest chunk of solid ground in such a little boat and your head is only six inches above the water, you feel pretty small and vulnerable. It was nice to know that even though it barely floated when swamped, it would float.

    The only good option for the schooner that didn't involve adding more ballast in the process was to raise the deck, which would probably be possible, but about the time I started thinking seriously about it, I also started writing my book and that kept me preoccupied for about three years. Looking back, I think it's a lot easier to design the boat as a single sloop than as a tandem schooner. Perhaps we should wake up Bruce, rev-up the new-fangled boat design software and collectively design a classic mini boat - the "WB-12".

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,996

    Default

    There....I did the hard part (made it pretty). Now all you guys need to do is a bit of work figuring out those trivial underwater details......and how best to build it. The little oddities along the leading edge of the hull and keel are some sort of glitch in my translation software. Ignore them, they won't cause much drag...

    Anybody up for fleet racing in the harbor at the WoodenBoat show?



    I'm telling you though, these little buggers are quite responsive and a blast to sail! We need a fleet.
    Crappy video quality, but a sample, none the less:

    http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Movie.mpg
    Last edited by Todd Bradshaw; 03-20-2007 at 06:22 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ile de la Réunion (Océan Indien)
    Posts
    2

    Default

    380 cm replica (1/5)







    eco 4,5m keelboat





    "La gazelle des sables" 300 cm and waterballast (55Kg + 65 L)

    and another 2,6 m with waterballast





  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    The Australian Capital Territory,
    Posts
    6,342

    Default

    We sailed past a pair of 2.4mR's yesterday that were match racing.



    ... and then found them again, later in the day, high and dry.






    There was no need to yank the backstay on hard yesterday.



    I think a pair of 2.4mR's look cool.

    I have a friend Mike Leydon who is right into racing 2.4's, and the 2.4 Association. I'll have a chat to him today, about plans ... and if they are available here.

    Stuart Schmel, a Canberra boatwright has just completed building the 2.4's for the Beijing Olympics. Unfortunately Stu has just moved to Adelaide, after completing the boats. Stu has been building the 2.4mR's here since 2001. If anyone knows of plans for a wooden 2.4mR here, it would be these two guys.

    I'll let you know later today, Sailordave.

    Warren.
    Last edited by Wild Wassa; 04-01-2007 at 04:19 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    The Australian Capital Territory,
    Posts
    6,342

    Default

    Sailordave, after having a chat to Mike Leydon, he tells me that measuring an existing boat, building a new boat from the measurements is the only way that he is aware of. Mike doesn't know of plans here in Oz to make a wooden strip built boat.

    Mike suggested looking at the Australian 2.4mR Association site because there is a link to a Swedish builder.

    He also knows of two glass hulls that have been imported from Sweden and the owners (both from Melbourne) then completed their boats with wooden interiors, wooden deck and surrounds and placed the tuning fittings around the boat rather than fitting out the boat with much tuning done from bits on a consul, as it is with the current 2.4mR's.

    Mike also mentioned that there is a chap here in Canberra at the YMCA Sailing Club, who is about to start building a wooden strip built 2.4mR but Mike isn't sure where the guy is upto with his project.

    If you would like me to locate a contact for this chap, let me know.

    Warren.
    Last edited by Wild Wassa; 04-01-2007 at 04:56 AM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, New York
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Dave:

    I've been kicking around the idea of strip building a pair of 2.4 meter boats over next winter, one modern, one with late 30's era 12 meter-looking rig and topsides. I couldn't find plans, so I'm designing my own, a brutal job. I can see why S&S wanted big bucks, as there is as much work involved as designing a 12 meter. The traditional looking boat will have a modern underbody, but having high, narrow ends will not be very competitive except in very light air. Looks and sailing fun will be the name of the game and the boat will help me learn the ropes regarding the fine points of the class rule and measuring in. Design work to be done this fall.

    Designing the modern will be interesting, as the Norlin Mark III utterly dominates the class. The Norlin lies at the big end of the 2.4 meter rule having a long waterline and heavy displacement. This makes sense as a light breeze for a 12 meter is a gale for a 2.4 meter, so a big boat seems optimal. Just for fun, however, I plan to explore the small end of the rule and go with a very narrow, short-waterline boat coupled with very, very long, low and full ends. The idea is that a small boat will settle deep in the water with the actual waterline a tad longer than the Norlin's, but with a flatter run and less frontal resistance. Will it work? I doubt it, but it should be fun finding out!

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Insane Diego
    Posts
    1,325

    Default

    Mike,
    Are you going to publish the plans when complete?
    The Strength of the Pack is the Wolf... And the Strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, New York
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Don:

    I would be happy to put out plans for the Spirit of Tradition version, as it would be a fun boat to look at and sail and is not to be taken too seriously on a race course. The modern is meant for my grandson and being a mightily competitive kid he is not going to want his lines out there for a bit. The plans (drawn in AutoCAD) will have full scale patterns and most construction details will be shown full scale for the simple reason that the boat is tiny and my eyesight is not what it once was.

    Some words of caution; although small, this will not be an easy boat to build due to the complex shape of the skeg, keel, transom and the beefy hull thickness the 2.4m rule calls for. The rig will be no simple thing to put together either and the cockpit is a complex affair at best. Additionally, if you are looking for shallow draft this is not your boat it as it will draw over three feet (which greatly complicates trailering). But it would be a chance to own and sail a true meter boat and look good doing it. I expect to have things pretty well down on paper sometime this fall. See attached PDF for a sail plan profile view.
    Attached Files Attached Files

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    1,929

    Default

    WildWassa and MikeMc: IF you come across something in the way of plans in the future please let me know... Don't go to any great trouble right now. I've got too much on my plate so to speak so this is definitely a "backburner" project.

    I've toyed w/ the idea of getting a 2.4M just to fool around in instead of getting another Laser. Just something different for a while.

    I just like the idea of building one in wood; think it would look GREAT. Plus it wouldn't take as long or as much $$$ as building a 35,36 footer!
    The only difference between [where I work] and the TITANIC is... The TITANIC had a band.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, New York
    Posts
    8

    Default

    Don't worry about things a bit! This is all in fun for me. I sailed a 2.4m a few years ago, loved it and thought something with a 30's look would be a lot of fun to look at and sail, fairly cheap and reasonably straightforward to build. Best of all it would be a true meterboat; the billionaires and millionaires no longer control the entire meterboat game, which is nice.

    Thus far the design work has been a fun and free exercise. Next week if I get time I'll post the in-progress optimization drawing for the Trad version with some quick observations. No pro designer ever puts this phase of the design game out there to be kicked around by the rank-and-file (probably for good reason!).

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    Hi, I'm thinking about a boat like than since a couple of month. That would be a 18ft plywood-epoxy quite planing hull with slender bow. for sure it wont be traditional looking at all but quite exciting... I plan to sail it in a couple of years around Quebec city. I will probably use a hobie cat 16 mast fitted with outriggers. If someone have the exact dimensions of this mast and deck layout I would appreciate.

    Also you should take a look at: (sorry they are in French)
    http://www.asprominiji.org/
    http://www.classneo495.org/

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,169

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMc View Post
    Don:

    I would be happy to put out plans for the Spirit of Tradition version, as it would be a fun boat to look at and sail and is not to be taken too seriously on a race course. The modern is meant for my grandson and being a mightily competitive kid he is not going to want his lines out there for a bit. The plans (drawn in AutoCAD) will have full scale patterns and most construction details will be shown full scale for the simple reason that the boat is tiny and my eyesight is not what it once was.

    Some words of caution; although small, this will not be an easy boat to build due to the complex shape of the skeg, keel, transom and the beefy hull thickness the 2.4m rule calls for. The rig will be no simple thing to put together either and the cockpit is a complex affair at best. Additionally, if you are looking for shallow draft this is not your boat it as it will draw over three feet (which greatly complicates trailering). But it would be a chance to own and sail a true meter boat and look good doing it. I expect to have things pretty well down on paper sometime this fall. See attached PDF for a sail plan profile view.
    Can you explain the formula in layman's terms and what it encourages and penalizes? http://gaviayachts.com/

    Thx-


    Meter Rule Formula


    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Insane Diego
    Posts
    1,325

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    In laymen's terms, L is the length waterline, but it's not measured at the waterline, but a point "a little bit" above it. By measuring above, you discourage excessive overhang.

    D is the girth differential, or the difference between measuring along the skin of the hull to the keel or simply measuring from freeboard to the bottom of the keel. A hard chine boat will have a high differential, a soft chine will have a low differential. Consider the difference between a champagne flute (low differential) and a margarita glass (high differential.

    F is freeboard. Adding freeboard will help add bouyancy on a boat without a lot of stiffness.

    S is Sail Area. Measuring the square root "normalizes" it for the formula.

    So, here's the trade off: To meet the formula, a long boat will need less sail area. You can offset this to a degree by a slack or firm chine, but only to a point. The softer you make the chine, the more freeboard you'd need... Australia II used this to great effect in 1983. She was designed for light air in September in Newport. On the other side of the coin, a long boat gets less sail area. That doesn't help you in light air, but think of the Doctor off Freemantle. Stars and Stripes went that route in '87... and it worked when the winds were above about 18kts, and made her a dog below that. That's why she won so much in '87, and hasn't done as well since.

    On a 2.4, you have less to play with. What is "light air" for a 12mR will seem heavy on a 2.4, so the boats tend to look more "one design like" over time, which is why Gavia makes the Norlin Mk. III.
    The Strength of the Pack is the Wolf... And the Strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,169

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    Thanks Don!

    I've been admiring 5.5 mRs lately and how they have changed toward the softer chine you describe.

    Last edited by rbgarr; 02-01-2009 at 10:30 AM.
    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Insane Diego
    Posts
    1,325

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    Ah, but a 5.5 is a different rule altogether...
    The Strength of the Pack is the Wolf... And the Strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,169

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    I was just referring to the advantages of the shape you mentioned and not so much the formulas themselves.
    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


  28. #28
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Gone West!
    Posts
    1,465

    Default Re: 2.4 Meter or similar type boat plans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Z. View Post
    In laymen's terms...
    Don Z., your thoughts would be much appreciated here - http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91654

Similar Threads

  1. Plans for Riva Ariston like boat
    By bjmullins in forum Designs / Plans
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-15-2006, 01:17 PM
  2. Deck Caulk (grab that stick, this horse is only kinda dead) Repost
    By Jim Hillman in forum Building / Repair
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-11-2005, 02:10 PM
  3. WBRF-New Free Boats and Boat Repair Classes
    By OEX in forum Building / Repair
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-23-2005, 12:52 PM
  4. Repost "Red Oak vs. White oak" (NIA)
    By Ross M in forum Building / Repair
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-26-2002, 02:23 AM
  5. Repost "Bending Mahogany" (NIA)
    By Ross M in forum Building / Repair
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-26-2002, 02:05 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •