Best Location for Mainsheet?

[Shalfleet]

We located the mainsheet block of our Sand Dollar on the keel just behind the centerboard trunk as suggested on the plan. This seems to be a hassle when sailing as you are forced to sit on the stern seat, which means the tiller gets in the way when moving during a tack or gybe. I think it would be better to sit on the center thwart when sailing but this does not seem to be possible with this arrangement. I think we have one of three options:

1. Mount the mainsheet on the transom (not really sure how best to do this).

2. Make a folding/lifting tiller (quite hard I think)

3. Change our sailing technique (suggestions welcome)

Many thanks!

[ion barnes]

Originally posted by Shalfleet:
We located the mainsheet block of our Sand Dollar on the keel just behind the centerboard trunk as suggested on the plan. This seems to be a hassle when sailing as you are forced to sit on the stern seat, which means the tiller gets in the way when moving during a tack or gybe. I think it would be better to sit on the center thwart when sailing but this does not seem to be possible with this arrangement. I think we have one of three options:

1. Mount the mainsheet on the transom (not really sure how best to do this).

2. Make a folding/lifting tiller (quite hard I think)

3. Change our sailing technique (suggestions welcome)

Many thanks!

[ion barnes]

Originally posted by Shalfleet:
We located the mainsheet block of our Sand Dollar on the keel just behind the centerboard trunk as suggested on the plan. This seems to be a hassle when sailing as you are forced to sit on the stern seat, which means the tiller gets in the way when moving during a tack or gybe. I think it would be better to sit on the center thwart when sailing but this does not seem to be possible with this arrangement. I think we have one of three options:

1. Mount the mainsheet on the transom (not really sure how best to do this).

2. Make a folding/lifting tiller (quite hard I think)

3. Change our sailing technique (suggestions welcome)

Many thanks!

[ion barnes]

Originally posted by Shalfleet:
We located the mainsheet block of our Sand Dollar on the keel just behind the centerboard trunk as suggested on the plan. This seems to be a hassle when sailing as you are forced to sit on the stern seat, which means the tiller gets in the way when moving during a tack or gybe. I think it would be better to sit on the center thwart when sailing but this does not seem to be possible with this arrangement. I think we have one of three options:

1. Mount the mainsheet on the transom (not really sure how best to do this).

2. Make a folding/lifting tiller (quite hard I think)

3. Change our sailing technique (suggestions welcome)

Many thanks!

[imported_Conrad]

I usually find myself sitting on the floor when sailing small boats. My experience has been that the mainsheet best starts at a bridle across the transom,then to a center boom block, then falls to a small cleat on the end of the trunk where half a turn or more can reduce the load or tie off temporarily. Unlike a block or block/cam cleat combo, having the fall end free allows more choices as you tack, trim, etc., but many would probably prefer a block/cam set-up.

[Scott Rosen]

Could you post a picture or a drawing of the Sand Dollar? It would make it easier for us to come up with ideas.

[Shalfleet]

Scott, the "sea trials and fitting out" link from this page probably best shows the interior. The sailing pictures also show how close the tiller and mainsheet are.

Thanks for your input!

http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/n/dnewnham/Varuna.htm

[ 09-27-2002, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Shalfleet ]

[Pete Dorr]

You chould rig it like http://www.beetlecat.com/
The beetlecat sail is much larger than your sanddollar and as a kid I never had a block on the floor (I do now but not sure I like it).

I would not want to move the block further forward on the boom.

[Scott Rosen]

Before you move the mainsheet, you should try sailing while sitting in the bottom of the boat just aft of the middle thwart. That will give you better balance. I don't think the boat is designed to sail properly balanced with all of the human weight on the rear thwart.

If you still feel you need to move the sheet, you could do this:

Rig a rope horse or harness by cutting a piece of rope about the same measurement as the beam at the transom, maybe a few inches longer. Then attach one end to the starboard quarterknee and the other to the port quarterknee. You could simply drill a hole in each quarterknee and run the rope through the hole with a stopper knot at each end. The rope should be loose enough so that if you pull it up it will clear the top of the tiller and the top of the transom.

Next, attach a thimble or small block at the end of the boom and another about a third to one-half of the distance forward from the back of the boom.

Your mainsheet will have a snap shackle at one end which will attach to the rope horse. You then run the sheet up through the block at the end of the boom, then over to the block at the middle of the boom and then down where you can belay it or just hold it.

The only reservation I would have for this arrangement is that your boom does not extend aft of the transom, as is the case with most boats with this sort of mainsheet rig. You may want to try this with a temporary setup first--don't go drilling holes in your quarterknees until you know it will work.

Good luck.

[Pete Dorr]

Scott points out a failure in my post.

The beetlecat tiller is below the traveler.

So you will need to make one. As Scott says, the easiest is the rope one. If you want the attach point to stay in the middle tie a loop in the middle and clip to that. This is how Sunfishs and other small sailboats are rigged. Check out www.teamvanguard.com for more ideas.

[Mac_Muz]

I like Scot's idea after looking at every pic on your site, but I would do things a little different at first.

With out much more than a spare line to TEST you could use the blocking for your row locks as a point to test things from, for the main sheet.

From the row lock blocks to the boom I would try keeping things vertical at first. A horse there would seem to be in the way, and it will be, but you will be behind it, either on the floor, or on the stern seat.

The boat is small enough that I do not see much moving forward and aft happening in general while sailing, so a test point there to see best where you could install a horse, or a fixed block for the main sheet would get you seeing where to locate things better perhaps.

Another idea, that would break most of the rules in boating, but you might find functional would be to fit a snatch block (pully with a open side, most have a closing latch) to the row lock mounting block, and at each tack change swap the side you set the main sheet too.

This would also come under testing things out, and you might not care for the look at all.

I sail a canoe, and have taken some fairly brisk breezes with it. I use a shroud system that only one side is ever tight on, which is always the side the wind is coming from to aid in supporting the mast. At each tack I loosen one and tighten the other.

You could do a near thing with 2 sheets, one per side and then using a fairlead in the row lock mount.

Peter has a good idea as well, with a floor mounted block for the main sheet, but as he said it tends to get in the way at times, but that may be the simplest way to go.
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Also if it was my boat that tiller would be the first thing to go! I would replace it with a yoke, and lines to steer by. To me the tiller is taking up much too much space.

With a yoke you can set it to stay where you leave it, and there is so much more room with out having to move every time you want to push over on a new tack.

This link has a pic of the yoke on my dorry which is none to large at 18'9".

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/mac_muz15...2bPhotos%2bof% 2b%2bworks%26.src=ph%26.view=t

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The boat it self seem very well made and the finish is outstanding from what I can see in the pics, which usually is even better in person. Congrats on a great job and fine little boat. I hope you enjoy it.... Mac

[Tim B]

I also have a small rowboat/sailboat. Sitting on stern seat really messes up the balance in it. It's only 8 ft long, a pram. So I sit on the floor. The mainsheet is brought down to a rotating snatch block with cam cleat. This block to mounted on a 2" wide by 12" long by 1" thick piece of wood that bolts onto the bottom of the center seat. This wood piece extends past the front of the seat. The snatch block sits on it, in front of the seat. It is quickly removable with some wing nuts. The snatch block sits up higher than the seat, so it gets in the way when you sit there to row.

On my pram the boom extends beyond the transom, so I use a traveler with block at the stern. In your case I'd recommend keeping the main sheet all in the center. Experiment with temporary changes first. What happens to your ability to sheet in if the main sheet is moved to in front of the center seat? That may be too far forward and affect your upwind ability. When the sheeting action on the boom is too far forward the boom tends to both rise and not sheet in as far. What if the wood piece extended both in front of and behind the seat. Your main sheet could start at the boom, go down to a block at the rear of the seat, to a block on the boom, forward to another block on the boom and then down to a block at the front of the seat. The rear block would help going upwind.

[Meerkat]

Isn't it a bit hard on one's own stern quarters to sit on a floor? They're pretty narrow

I have asked a couple of boat designers about mainsheet rigging since I also wanted it to come down at the stern from the end of the boom instead of center boom to c/b trunk or center of the cockpit sole somewhere. I kept getting cautioned about it being a lot harder on the boom to have the sheet from the boom end instead of it's middle. Also that "the transom is already too busy" (WRT a yawl). There's a question there somewhere... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Wild Wassa]

Shalfleet, Skipper, A tiller extension will allow you to sit well foreward, which is good sailing practice. You need to get her bum out of the water. As mentioned by others.

This looks like a simple job. Many tiller extension swivel types are available. The block shouldn't be a problem then.

Not sitting in the correct position in the boat is what the problem appears to be.

Warren.

ps, When you think you are moving well in a boat, move 10 times faster. Good technique is essential.

[ 09-27-2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

I don't know the boat Skipper, but have you rigged the main sheet correctly? After seeing the photo.

Warren.

[ 09-27-2002, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[ken mcclure]

I think ionbarnes has the hiccups...

[Todd Bradshaw]

If it was mine, I'd probably dead-end the mainsheet to the keel aft of the trunk (the boom seems a bit short to use a bridle on the stern, but it's hard to tell for sure from the photos)and then go straight up to a boom block. The sheet would then run forward along the underside of the boom to another boom block on the bottom of the boom jaws, then down to a block on the deck or lower mast and back to the sailor. A mainsheet cleat probably isn't needed, though a simple cam or clam could be mounted somewhere near the forward end of the trunk.

I really get the feeling from looking at the photos that the luff is too slack and something is needed which will put some luff tension on the sail. Having the mainsheet run through the two boom blocks and under the boom has the drawback that the line can tend to sag down and snag on you while tacking, but it creates a self-tensioning downhaul with the forward block allowing the mainsheet tension to pull down on the boom jaws and tighten the luff. Off the wind, it automatically eases the downforce on the jaws for a bit more draft.

The use of two boom blocks like this also avoids much of the boom-bending force that mid-boom, single-point-anchored mainsheet systems sometimes create on boats with dinghy-sized, bendy spars. In most cases, it doesn't take much force to bend the boom a couple of inches, which is usually enough to match the sail's foot curve and eliminate much of the draft that's supposed to be happening in the lower third of the sail. Any more bend than that can start seriously deforming the shape of your airfoil.

Spreading the mainsheet load over two blocks, several feet apart almost always yields a sailshape that's closer to what it was designed to be than systems that use a single, mid-boom connection. It's the same type of mainsheet system that's used on boats like the Sunfish (with the addition of the aft bridle) and most iceboats.

[JimD]

I'd think on a boat that small and light and easy to manage you could probably run the sheet through a block or two almost anywhere you like, within reason, meaning the block or deadend on the boom itself isn't so far forward you loose almost all the leverage to keep the boom from lifting.
jimd

[Shalfleet]

Many thanks for the great advice guys, and for the kind words.

Based on your input, I plan on changing where we sit (to get her bum out the water!), ideally on the rail when there is wind, or on the floor when its light. If we still have problems, I'll try relocating the mainsheet to the transom (or near to it). I have seen pictures of sheets on a rope traveller slightly forward of the transom, when the boom is short so this might work (and I can use the open gunnel (sp?) to tie the temporary traveller. This will effectively disable the stern seat when sailing but that might not be bad thing anyway.

A lifting tiller is something I am still considering but the design of this is perhaps the subject of another question...

Thanks again!

[JimD]

When you say lifting tiller do you mean the tiller will pivot through a single bolt where it is attatched to the rudder, or something like that? That's what I did with with my 15 foot sloop. Works fine. One good thing about small boats is there just isn't enough stress on them where you need to worry much about design knowledge. Design something that looks like it oughta work based on common sense, and it probably will work.
jimd