Interior bright finish help needed (pic)

[CJ]

Soon, I will have finished assembling my Penobscot 14 and will need to begin the tedious task of applying finishes. This is only my 2nd build and I've only done a few smaller varnishing projects previously so I'm not completely sure what I'm getting into other than it'll probably be the least pleasant part of the project.

Anyway, I need advice as to whether or not I should first coat the interior with West System epoxy prior to varnishing, or is this not really necessary and instead I could skip right to varnishing? The way I see it, my two options are:
#1 - two coats of West epoxy with 207 hardner followed by much sanding and multiple coats of varnish.
#2 - multiple coats of varnish over the bare wood.

The exterior is already epoxy coated and will get epoxy primer and white paint. I'd like to finish the entire interior bright. The hull is miranti ply, the stringers are doug fir and the rest of the trim & seats are sapele.

Any thoughts or suggestions on this will be greatly appreciated.

[Lew Barrett]

Nice boat. T'were me, I'd just varnish it. The sanding is the worst part; varnishing is a reward.

[Concordia...41]

I second Lew's vote for varnish. Epifanes - follow the directions.

I think you'll find the glow of the wood and the beauty of the grain very rewarding and not at all "the least pleasant part of the project."

[kalevala]

Beautiful boat
I am currently refinnishing the interior of a 7.5 meter honduran mahogony lapstrake cabin cruiser. stripping the inside to bare wood and starting from there.sanding,sanding and more sanding. Now the time has come to decide on the finnish. after much research i have decided that a good coat of tung oil and then epifanes varnish applied according to the instructions on the can, is the only way to go. The tung oil applied before the varnish really enhances the grain an the gold and red tones found in the mahogony. The tung oil and varnish combination gives the wood depth and brings the wood to life. Try it on a sample piece of wood you wont be sorry. As for the varnishing,it becomes the most rewarding part of the job. The more coats you apply the easier it becomes. And remember the reward is not only getting there, but the journey itself.

[emichaels]

Not having experience with varnishing entire boats I must ask this....

Perhaps I am asking a stupid question here ......

Where the fir strips are applied with epoxy to the inside of the hull , will the area where we see the epoxy finish differently than the wood ? and if it does finish a little different, would a couple coats of that CPES make it all finish evenly.

Eric

[Lew Barrett]

Scuff the areas where the epoxy bled through and cover it all with a thinned coat of varnish. Then build your coats. By the time you get to the eight coat, you'll be an expert. Your project seems hard to look at it, but you'll find the technique as you go along and develop a scheme to lay down varnish in seemingly smooth unbroken coats and it will be pretty!

[JimD]

If you decide to epoxy use a three or four inch wide plastic spreader that will fit between the battens to apply it. The coats will go on very thin and evenly and will require a minimum of sanding. Then varnish.

[David G]

That Penobscott 14 is a pretty boat, and it sure looks like you've done a lovely job of building her. That interior - with a bright finish - will be a thing of beauty. I love the look of varnish on wood. I'm partial to Interlux #96, myself. Jay Greer, who has done a boat project or two, loves the Behr spar varnish available from (of all places) Home Depot. I did a bit of contract varnishing work for a while. One one boat - at the owners insistence - I used Epifanes. I didn'td like the results. That may have been simply a case of my inexperience with the product, but I've subsequently heard of similar problems, as well. Lots of folks swear by it, but I just swore at it. My be fine, but I can't vouch for it.

But I also have another suggestion. You might consider Sikkens Cetol Marine. I haven't used it myself yet, but I intend to. I have also seen it put on (both rag and brush), and have now talked to several folks who've used it for a while. Seems like it gets good reviews for durability and ease of toughup. The primary reasons you might consider it instead of varnish are: easier/quicker to apply; much easier to touchup; somewhat longer life between recoating.

http://www.yachtpaint.com/Images/15_21129.pdf

The only thing I don't like about it is the color of the original product - "Cetol Marine". It has a distinct, almost fluorescent, orange cast. I hate it. Luckily, they came out with "Marine Light", which has a browner, and not at all objectionable color. They've also recently released "Marine Natural Teak", which I haven't seen. They describe it as "golden" colored. All of that is aesthetics, which are answerable only to your own eye, so decide for yourself. Have fun, whatever you use. It really is a case of going Zen... abandoning yourself to the process, gearing down to the speed of the material. Allowing patience to grow.

"You must first have a lot of patience to learn to have patience" -- Stanislaw Lec

[JimD]

Just my humble opinion but I personally don't find Cetol Light much of an improvement over Cetol 'original'. I have used both on brightwork and in future will stick to genuine varnishes.

[Robmill0605]

Nice wotk
Since your boat is open to the elements I would seal the interior with a couple coats of CPES and then build your varnish coats. The CPES will give the varnish a strong bond and make it last longer.

[Thorne]

I'll agree with Rob and Eric -- CPES makes a great base/primer for varnish. You'll want to use a good varnish with high UV protection over the CPES, as like any epoxy-based product, it doesn't like sunlight.

I'd say test some of your scrap pieces of ply and see what looks best. If you can really get a deeper richer color with an oil finish under varnish than with CPES, go that route.

You want the best bond to the wood possible. Removing varnish and sanding back to bare wood on some of the interior areas in your PB14 will not be a lot of fun...

As other posts here illustrate, most varnish failure is where it detaches from the wood, not failure of the coats of varnish itself. So whatever gives the best 'bond' or base for the varnish may be a better choice than something that looks lovely but fails much sooner.

[almeyer]

The Penobscot 14 will look very nice with a bright interior. I bright-finished the interior of mine, along with the rails, badges, and rear face of the transom, and have received many kind compliments on it.

Give serious consideration to using multiple coats of varnish alone. The folks recommending this approach know what they're talking about.

That being said, I finished mine with two coats of epoxy followed by two coats of varnish, based on how I interpreted the Arch's instructions. (I've since learned that two people can build the same boat following the same instructions, and still do things a little differently.) The epoxy I used was System Three Clear Coat, which is very thin, much thinner than the epoxy used for construction. It was brush coated, and so thin that it's closer to applying varnish than epoxy. From reading the web site, it sounds like West 105/207 is similar. The task is not that unpleasant, just have plenty of light available so you can catch the runs and holidays. That will save you a lot of sanding. And try it out a test piece first; that way you'll have a better idea of what you're in for when you finish the boat.

Al

[Bob Cleek]

Ditto... there is only one way to go. CPES as a sealer over all (no need to sand afterward.) The CPES should turn all the wood slightly darker and bring out the grain features, so the epoxy you have showing that soaked in should match evenly. Apply your first coat of varnish within a day or two so the varnish bonds to the CPES. Build up the varnish coats skuffing it with Scotch-brite between coats (don't sand off what you just put on.) After five or six coats, sand it nice and fair with 320 grit or so. Lay on another three or four coats of varnish nice and smooth.

Be sure to keep the boat indoors or covered. Stripping and refinishing what you have there will be a real pain in the ass! But it will look great.

[CJ]

Well, I like the idea of not having to use epoxy to achieve the intended results, so "CPES & multiple coats of varnish" it is. Having never used CPES before, I'll experiment a little first - any tips or suggestions???

Thanks, everyone for all your kind compliments and advice. This kind of forum and its members has been a huge help.

Al - I intend to finish off the boat as you described, except I plan to keep the sheer strake bright as well. I think it was your project's pictures and postings that helped me out a great deal during my build - THANKS!

More pics to follow as progress progresses....

CJ

[Thorne]

CPES can be a hot-button topic on this forum, as some folks don't like it, others think that thinned/thin epoxy is as good, etc.

Personally I'll recommend Smith & Co's products -- best is their Cold Weather Formula CPES, as it cures rapidly. Multiple coats may not be necessary and as mentioned above, overcoat the last coat of CPES with varnish before it has fully cured for the best bond.




http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html

You MUST use a good respirator with fresh organic vapor cartridges - and I'll recommend using it outdoors on a windy day, or at the very least with good ventilation.

[earling2]

I just got done with my first CPES experience and have seriously mixed feelings about the stuff.
One, I did read Bob Cleek's advice about using scotchbrite instead of sanding. Well, the scotch brite on CPES was about like ... scotchbrite. The grain was well raised by the CPES, and the scotchbrite did virtually nothing to fair it -- it sort of burnished it. I experimented, and found that two coats of CPES did fill mahogany grain pretty well, however, saving a lot on fairing time (meaning, after several coats of varnish, you have to hit all surfaces fairly hard with 150 or 220 to remove the grain patterns and various varnish waves and ripples that build up, before the final finish coats) so initial smoothing with 150 or 220 wasn't absolutely necessary, as long as two coats of CPES were used. In my opinion, if you only use one coat of CPES, then you really do have to sand. The upside is that you can get by with fairly agressive sanding on the flats (watch out for corners -- you'll go through the CPES in a hearbeat) because the surface is now so damn hard. This opinion was borne out by using CPES on topside paint as well, and the first coat looked nasty. Full grain showing through, proud and strong, despite vigorous scotch-briting. Any enamel undercoater does a far better job of filling grain. UNLESS-- as previously stated -- you go for two coats of CPES and flood the grain well. Smith's directions on this are extremely vague --"before applying finish coat, apply another coat of CPES so paint sticks better." So -- two coats mandatory? or suggested? and for better sticking, or better grain filling? And how many hours between coats? Sand first? Worst documentation I've ever seen.
Also, the stuff reeks, will kill your nervous system, and is toxic, and if you put on your finish too soon, it won't cure, and too late, and the CPES bonding characteristics will be non-existent. The Smith's directions are vague as vague can be. "Allow enough time for solvents to evaporate before applying finish." ??? I've read on this forum, "within 36 hours of application," which I don't see anywhere in the Smith's directions. Anyway, a lot of room for misunderstanding of product here. Unless there's a better description somewhere that I missed (very possible).
Also, I've used Epiphanes for years, as directed on the label, and never had any lifting, bubbling, etc. so the CPES claims, for varnish, are like a solution to a problem I've never experienced (varnish not sticking). (However, with topside paint, as opposed to varnish, any epoxy will extend finish life two or three times.) Varnishes, I think, sort of "burn" off through UV deterioration and gradually crumble in the sun though. In three years, approx., depending on thickness. Epiphanes "Woodfinish" seems like great stuff to me. I've used a lot of it and can't tell the difference between it and their straight varnish. The Woodfinish is designed to use for build coats with without sanding, though don't be fooled into thinking it'll self-fair because it won't. It's just as bright as the varnish, and I don't fully understand (maybe someone here does) why it shouldn't be the finish coat as well as build coat. It's actually a little easier to apply than the varnish (experiment with small shots of thinner).
However-- as someone already noted, that Penobscott interior (looks really nice, by the way) would be a royal pain to refinish -- so the CPES is probably a really good idea though I would certainly do some scotchbrite/150 grit comparison tests for your varnish base, and also definitely go for two coats of the stuff.
Someone recommended two coats of epoxy. I've used a lot of WEST over the years, and in my experience, you're asking for a whole heap o' sanding and fairing if you slap it on your nice new wood. It doesn't level out like paint. Plus it has to be fully cured before any sanding, and blush is a concern in damp weather (wipes off with water -- read the Gougeon materials). Also, it will "milk" in damp weather (turn milky while curing) so be damn careful. Builders used it a lot on epoxy ply multihulls and proas and half-ton racers interiors, and sanded, a lot. and then a lot more, and lived in Tyvek suits, developed skin sensitivities, and worried about dewfall. Other epoxies may be thinner and level out better, however. I know MAS epoxy doesn't blush, and is more paintable.
That's my two cents.
I think you're smart to ask around before committing.
I would think all this stuff is covered in some varnish book, though CPES may not be.
clear as mud, right?

[earling2]

I just went back -- as Almeyer said, System Three clearcoat seems paintable. And Jim D's suggestion of using a spreader sounds like a good one .. but check the thread on "Finish Advice Please" --
verbatim

"It is all epoxy sealed and nearly all sanded (let me tell you, that is a royal PIMA)"

[capt jake]

I just went back -- as Almeyer said, System Three clearcoat seems paintable. And Jim D's suggestion of using a spreader sounds like a good one .. but check the thread on "Finish Advice Please" --
verbatim

"It is all epoxy sealed and nearly all sanded (let me tell you, that is a royal PIMA)"

But, IMHO, it was worth it. It is sealed, the grain filled and level for the finish coats. I generally like varnish better than poly (appearance) and next time would probably spray the varnish. By sealing with epoxy, for example, the seat tops were absolutely flat! There was no grain depressions visible at all in the final finish.

It was only a PIMA due to the inside corners. Working clean and cleaning up any messes before the epoxy sures is a great time saver. 150 cuts obviously faster than 220, but I went with 220 because I wouldn't have to go back over it after sanding with 150. I found that Norton's new 3X paper is really worth the extra price. It lives up to it's claims and works very well.

To me, the finish you can achieve with epoxy sealed wood is faster, stronger, easier and better in appearance than varnish alone.