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Thread: 17' Hampden (Hampton) boat

  1. #36
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    Thanks JohnW. Good point about drag from the slot. Stainless plate sounds good. I will check weights (and costs) of different thicknesses and decide. I still want it to be easily removeable.

    A bigger rudder sounds good too. I just looked at the Melonseed on another thread, and the rudder is huge. I guess something between the two will work.

    re: buoyancy - I read somewhere that it is most important to have it in the ends. Can't remember why, now.

  2. #37
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    It's easier to right the boat if the bouancy is in the ends, but the lack of stability that this entails makes it hard to keep the boat on its feet while you bail it out. In my Snipe, I put flotation in the ends and store some nice big fenders under the side decks, just enough to give the boat some stability when swamped.

    I've been sailing a sharpie with a 400 lb. steel plate centerboard, and my, what a lot of work that is to raise. It's a 40 foot boat, so I can see the point. On a 17-footer, I'd rather just sit out a little more.

    My experience sailing Herreschoff 12 1/2s is that a big gaff main can overpower a small rudder. And keep in mind, the stern wave will rise and make area above the waterline effective on a barn-door rudder.

  3. #38
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    It's easier to right the boat if the bouancy is in the ends, but the lack of stability that this entails makes it hard to keep the boat on its feet while you bail it out. In my Snipe, I put flotation in the ends and store some nice big fenders under the side decks, just enough to give the boat some stability when swamped.

    I've been sailing a sharpie with a 400 lb. steel plate centerboard, and my, what a lot of work that is to raise. It's a 40 foot boat, so I can see the point. On a 17-footer, I'd rather just sit out a little more.

    My experience sailing Herreschoff 12 1/2s is that a big gaff main can overpower a small rudder. And keep in mind, the stern wave will rise and make area above the waterline effective on a barn-door rudder.

  4. #39
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    Thanks again JohnW. Perhaps all those bright yellow things (personal floatation devices) that I’m required to carry should be stuffed in the hold or under the side benches rather than just being sat on or used as pillows by the lazier crew members.

    The centreboard as drawn will weigh about 30Kg (65lb) if made from 6mm (1/4”) stainless steel plate. This seems ok to me. I haven’t been able to find prices for SS plate; I’ll try the local scrap metal yard when I get the chance. It is certainly a simpler option than what I was proposing and if there is no significant advantage over a fancy foil shape, then that is what I’ll go with. I can always go with hot-dipped mild steel if I can’t find SS at the right price.

    I have enlarged the rudder by about 25%. It is now 0.17 sq.m (1.8 sq.ft) below the waterline. That would have to be enough, I reckon, at least to start with. Looks good, anyway.

  5. #40
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    Sounds good. The boats I've seen with mild steel plate for centerboards seem to need a new one after about 30 years, which is about how long a steel ship lasts. That might be an option.

  6. #41
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    30 years for mild steel, eh? I guess replacing it would be SEP (somebody else’s problem). Good.




    I have been looking at some of the practicalities of storage, transport and ease of rigging. I will make a stainless steel tabernacle set high as in the drawing – it is a refinement of the one I’m using on the current boat.

    I will probably model the trailer in 3D along the way. There is more research to do here and the drawing is a preliminary sketch only, but I am getting a feel for what is required for easy launch and retrieve. Typically I will be launching into quite shallow water with a 2WD car. I want the trailer to tilt to allow the boat to slip off easily. I also want the boat to self-centre when it comes to putting it back on the trailer, so some poor sod doesn’t have to get into what is sometimes v. cold water just to line things up. I will investigate further.

    I have been getting a lot of good info and ideas using WBF ‘Search’. I send a big “thankyou” to forum members (and WB) for the fantastic collection of knowledge and experience to be found here. I wish I had found this place a few years earlier.
    Charlie

  7. #42
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    Default Friggin' in the riggin' ....


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    The tilting trailer seems like a real challenge -- can't think of how you'll get it to tilt and un-tilt 'on command' -- will you use a 12v electric trailer winch or ??

    If the water is really shallow you may find it easier for that poor SOB to get wet, aka 'swim the trailer' -- as tilting may not do you much good in shallow water. After all, the water has to be deep enough to float the boat -- and if it is that deep, you won't need to tilt anything.

    Had to do just that this weekend at Stone Lagoon, although I left the trailer attached to the truck and will just live with the rusty brakes.

    And how will you support the tuck up near the transom? As I showed earlier in the thread, one solution is to have posts that can be lowered for launch/retrieval, then raised for trailering/storage --

    Last edited by Thorne; 07-25-2007 at 04:35 PM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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  10. #45
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    Thanks for your input. I’m a bit isolated here. I’ve never actually had the chance to speak face-to-face with another builder of boats.

    Thorne, it’s all to do with balance. I made a tilt trailer for the current boat and it works well. I want to refine it a little (the mk 2 should always be an improvement on the mk 1). You might find that this system will save you some trouble, too. ;-)



    This is the typical situation. I rarely use boat ramps – I have enough stress in my life already and there are plenty of good places to launch from the edge of the lake. The boat sits on the trailer fairly close to its point of balance in relation to the trailer axle, with a bias towards the pointy end of about 10Kg. I just have to pull back a spring-loaded bolt, unhook the winch strap and lift the bowsprit. The boat slips easily off the trailer. The trailer wheel hubs are still about 75mm above the water. Retrieving is a matter of drawing out the winch strap, hooking it to the boat and winding it in. As the boat reaches its point of balance the front of the trailer clicks back into place. The current boat is about 150 - 200Kg (I guess) and the hand winch does it easily enough. The skeg on this new boat is a bit deeper, the weight should be similar and I am confident it will work in a similar manner.



    The current boat sits on wooden bunks shaped to fit the hull. They are topped with slippery plastic fluted stuff from a boat shop. They are pivoted to rock back and forth. The bunks are long enough to span two major frames and the bottom is supported on three rollers, all fitted to provide similar support for the hull. There is no support at the rear end of the boat, and none is required, IMO.
    This new boat and trailer should work the same. I am still working out how to get the self-centre thing happening. I will make some of those nice articulated roller thingies, and perhaps have temporary adjustable arms with rollers sticking out the back of the trailer so I can muck around with different options. I also want to refine the mounts for lights and number plate – currently I have a board across the back of the trailer that must be removed (two bolts with wing-nuts) and stored in the car. (that costs far too much time!) I’m thinking that it might be possible to fit them to the self-centre arms, hopefully well out of the water.
    Charlie

  11. #46
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    I'm grateful to you for putting these drawings etc. up on the board. You've no idea how interested in this I am!

    well ... maybe you've some idea.

    My only quibble - I really like the original rig. The proposed gaff sloop looks smashing, but I'm drawn to the shallop. The shallop's mast placement (and boomless main) opens up a lot more space amidships, and among other things, the two masts seem to suggest a great way to sling a tent over the boat allowing 2 people to sleep aboard.

    But wow - I'm really enjoying what you're posting. Thanks!

    t
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  12. #47
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    Very interesting -- thanks for the detailed reply to my questions.

    But of course I have more...

    Have you tried your drawings of the trailer launching with a more gradual slope -- the one you show seems rather "perfect" in my experience of shore/beach launching.

    For example I launched / retrieved my dory skiff last weekend from a graveled shoreline on a saltwater lagoon. Even though my trailer sits reasonably low and the boat has a flat bottom, I had to back my 4x4 truck all the way into the water until the exhaust pipe was touching...and still had to shove it off and winch it back onto the trailer.



    It seems to me that with a very gradual slope, you'd not only have to swim the trailer to get the boat deep enough to float, but the tilt would just cause the aft end to impact the bottom...but I'm not sure.

    I could see it working with some sort of 'cut-axle' trailer, where your keel hung down very low and the axle was cut out in the center and welded to the frame or whatever.
    Last edited by Thorne; 07-26-2007 at 09:58 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  13. #48
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    Yes Thorne, I’ll admit that there are times …

    There’s one spot near an island I like to use for camping. The slope is so shallow, and the bank is often so muddy that I cannot get my car close enough without getting bogged. I detach the trailer and walk it into the water. I just tip the boat off, then tie a 20 metre rope to the trailer and pull it back out. The car stays safely above the mud line.

    And there was one place where after a couple of weeks camping and heavy rain, I had to push the trailer right into the water, tie it to the boat, and swim the whole thing a couple of hundred metres to a better spot where I could use 60 metres of rope to haul it out. No bears were hurt in the process.

    And when the puddle gets really low, the banks get so steep that I have to use 20 metres of rope to lower the whole thing down to the water. It’s all part of the adventure.

    Typically though, the tilt thing works really well and my trailer hubs go under the water very rarely. When I have assisted other (non-tilt) sailors with their launchings I have noted how difficult it is to get the boat ‘over the hump’ at the back of the trailer.

    TomF, I guess we’ll just have to meet in a lagoon at an island in mid-Pacific; (you know, one of those islands where beautiful girls paddle out with baskets of tropical fruit) and compare rigs – I’d really like to try the two-mast version. Maybe I should look at including some extra mast steps and sew up some polytarp sails …

    Charlie

  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatbear View Post
    ... I guess we’ll just have to meet in a lagoon at an island in mid-Pacific; (you know, one of those islands where beautiful girls paddle out with baskets of tropical fruit) and compare rigs …
    My wife has relatives in various bits of Aus (Sydney, Canberra, Hobart). I'll just sail down some weekend, and give you a ring while I'm there. Don't worry ... I'll bring you some leftover fruit from the lagoon thing.

    t
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  15. #50
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    TomF, ok mate, yer on! I guess I should warn you though, to get here involves a bit of a paddle up the Murray River from Adelaide, and there’s a few weirs. And look, I’d better come clean – there’s these giant yabbies. (Maybe I shouldn’t have told you that.)
    Look, don’t worry about the yabbies. You’ll be fine. Just have a crewmember on watch at night, ok? Don’t forget the fruit.

    Anyway, I have modelled the trailer in Autocad.



    A bit of overkill perhaps, but it does feel safe. It will evolve over time.



    Now I just need to model a nice big lake and generate a virtual fair breeze, load a slab of virtual beer and I can go sailing. (O, and of course I’d better empty my bank account, which is already virtual).

    Thorne, next time you are launching that excellent Chamberlain, please try detaching the trailer from the car, and lift the trailer tongue up towards shoulder height, if it’s not too heavy. Keep the trailer hubs out of the water.
    Charlie

  16. #51
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    beautiful boat, I wish I was that far ahead on my jersey skiff project.

    I can give some comment on what I have been reading above.

    the centerboard
    if it weighs 30kg, and it is down and you hit a submerged object about half way up the board that impact will be absorbed by the pivoting pin, Imagine it hanging from a tree and hitting it with a baseball bat, gonna break your arm!basicly the pivot pin will take the grunt of the impact with a heavy board and most likely damaging the case around it.
    the board should be just heavy enough to sink so the impact can cause it to swing up, Im going to router a groove in the leading edge and sikaflex a stainless pipe on after it is glassed up so the wood will survive an impact. a nice NACA profile is good, just make some vinyle lips to cover the slot fo better
    resistance.

    trailer
    have you considered a beach trailer on a road trailer?
    I have a german one that makes so much sense, your bearings never go near the water, you launch by hand, and can also retrieve, if the incline or surface are not good then you can pull the beach trailer out with the winch first.
    I intend to build different beach trailers for each of my boats, at home I can maneuver my boats around by hand for storage in the shed or workshop.

    as for your rig it looks great, Im going to make a shroudless sprit rig and 2 different jibs, one a normal jib and the other a balanced jib on a fixed boom, like a model boat. this way I have no sprit to worry about and can handle sails from inside the boat.

    side floatation is not for sissys, we turtled a boat in 2006 and as there was no boyancy on her sides it was hell to keep her upright when upright and full of water, you will most likely capsize in heavy winds, you may not be able to get the sails down before righting her, something could be tangled, ripped or broken. its not a fun experence but I learned from it (like my fingers unfortunatly)

    your gaff bridle should terminate near the tip and the middle of the gaff, if you put one end of the halyard on the top of the mast you have better support also.



    I am impressed with your cad drawings, it makes it very easy to imagine the boat before starting.

    keep up the good work

    have you considered not having the center thwart and wrap around benchs? it would make the boat seem much bigger inside, the thwart gives you the feeling of the cockpit ending there, consider a seat on the aft end of the case for rowing, it doubles as a nice table in the evening. consider your oars fore with the handles almost touching the inner stem and the blades on the inside of the hull skin, makes her look smart when sailing and quick to retrieve.


    my thaughts
    8-finger mike
    There's one rich man onboard and there's twentyfive poor men and they enjoy it more then the rich man does -Jim Kilroy when asked if yacht racing is a rich mans sport.

  17. #52
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    Thanks for the feedback Mike. I hope your fingers are healing and that you are finding ways to enjoy your recuperation at least a bit.
    I’ll have a go at addressing your comments.

    Centreboard – the reason for going with a heavy board is to increase mass at what I assume is the most useful place. My current boat is a bit tippy, and a 25Kg water container on the floorboards in the middle of the boat makes a significant difference when the wind gets up. As to hitting objects, the most likely candidates here are tree branches and European carp, neither of which are likely to cause any impact damage at 4 or 5 knots. The NACA profile is another matter that I would like to know more about. The boat will not be for racing, so it may not be an issue. The “vinyl lips” idea is good.

    Trailer – an interesting idea. It sounds like you have an (over) abundance of boats, and to have road trailers for each of them could be a problem. I think for my situation, a purpose built road trailer is the best option. (and hey, I’ve just modelled the damn thing! I’ve gotta build it). Launching conditions are quite variable as the lake water level fluctuates (it got down to 4% this summer which meant very little sailing). Typically, shunting the trailer down to the water works very well but it is necessary to cover some rough ground on the way.

    Rig – “ a balanced jib on a fixed boom, like a model boat” sounds interesting, but I’m not sure what you mean. Can you point me at a picture of this?
    I am also tempted to make another jib with an overlap, boomless of course, just to try the slot effect. I’ll see how the rig balances first.

    Thanks for the stuff about side buoyancy and the gaff bridle. All good info.

    Centre thwart – I had considered what you suggest here, but went with the thwart because we often have two rowing side by side. The main reason though is that having comfortable low-down lounging space for the crew has been so popular. I don’t mind having a nap there myself. In the current boat I shove a couple of 1200x500 (4’ x 20”) vinyl covered cushions there between the thwarts, and the crew dives into them. Great ballast.

    Oars – I really like the arrangement as drawn (somewhere back there). I have this set-up already in the current boat and it works very well. The oars are out of the way; there is room to sit on the gunwales and it only takes seconds to press them into action.

    Yes, CAD is a wonderful tool. Free!ship (now Deftship) has meant that it is possible to model a round hull quite easily, using the offset table and a bit of tweaking (and it’s free software!). 2D Architectural drafting with Autocad is something I do for a living - just had to remember how to model solids and faces. With the trailer model, I can get all the dimensions and angles for a cutting list in a few minutes. I have just found another free 3d CAD program called MOI (Moment of Inspiration) apparently designed for artists. The 3D toolset is particularly good. I might use it to model the tabernacle.

    Charlie

  18. #53
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    Default The Tabernacle



    I have modelled the proposed tabernacle in MOI, rendered in Artlantis, and there is a pic of the ‘one I prepared earlier’ for my dory (fizzed up in s/s and made entirely with the materials at hand). The original still needs some refinement to stop strings snagging on some lumpy bits. I have designed the new one to be a bit easier in operation. I reckon I’ll be able to get rigging time down below 3 minutes. The boom gooseneck fits to a track on the back. The following CAD drawing shows the geometry.



    As the mast approaches vertical the s/s shoe rides up on the lip of the lower tube and then clicks down about 10mm and locks into place. Lowering the mast involves a length of s/s rod being poked through a hole in the back and levering up to release the mast. The rod hangs on a string from the gooseneck.

    A note on MOI for those interested – this is a wonderful 3D modelling program that is currently in beta and is free to download here: http://moi3d.com/
    I think it is soon to be released commercially. The manual is still being written, but there is an excellent forum with tutorials here: http://moi3d.com/forum/
    Note that you need a reasonably good video card and DirectX 9 to run the program.

    I guess I’ll have to start figuring out the framing for the hull now.

    Charlie

  19. #54
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    There's a picture of the balance jib in Boatbuilding, on the 20-foot double-ended modified sharpie skiff. My experience is that they need to be cut differently, because the luff won't be as tight as on a normal jib. That means luff sag will make it too full at the luff if it's cut normally.

    1/4-inch metal boards work fine on Geary 18s, which are quite fast. I think if the aspect ratio of the board isn't too great, stalling isn't a big problem.
    Last edited by johnw; 08-05-2007 at 03:15 PM.

  20. #55
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    I got a balanced jib on Riviera, only tried it once before my injury but it does work well,
    google "chesapeake log canoe"for extreme refinements of this rig.

    interested in pushing another chapelle design thru cad for me?
    http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=58410

    Im going to start lofting at the end of the month and allready know that the chapelle drawings are bogus, the buttoks and the WL,and the midsections dont even match up on his drawings.
    There's one rich man onboard and there's twentyfive poor men and they enjoy it more then the rich man does -Jim Kilroy when asked if yacht racing is a rich mans sport.

  21. #56
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    John,
    I’m just looking at the balanced jib in ‘Boatbuilding’. So the forestay tension is taken through the sail – I like it very much and I’m keen to know more about how the sail is cut. Is it a matter of cutting the luff a bit more concave? Will it work as well with a stayed mast?

    Mike,
    What extraordinary boats those Chesapeake log canoes are. Sailing is apparently “equal part rightful terror and delight”. I find that easy to believe.
    Do you have pics of Riviera?

    Re: New Jersey Beach Skiff – that is a lovely looking hull, and a beautifully made half-model. I’d be happy to have a go at modelling it if time permits (in Delftship – output can be exported as a DXF (Autocad compatible). I would need a scan of the lines and the offset table (corrected if possible, and metric is best). Send me a PM and I’ll reply with my email address.
    Note that this is not a commercial proposition – I’ll do it for the love of pretty boats.
    Charlie

  22. #57
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    pictures of riviera are in this forum,

    I allready lofted the jersey boat and came to the conclusion that the offsets are mostly bogus as there were so many errors and the transom does not match up with the numbers that I concluded to measure the drawing and generate a new table based off of that! as I am scaling the boat up this adds a bit of twist, I discovered that 1:1.23 will give me the beam I want and that I want the lengthen the boat to 6m (20%) it will be a fun loft.
    even the drawings dont match up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_76zOFOi7Xo

    http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...reshoff+rivier

    as for the balanced jib the boom is bendy, and the jib foot is not straight but curved, the luff has a wire in it, sails by nat wilson who does know what he is doing.

    please note that this is a hell of a big sail and in your case it would be a smaller sail and you need to think out the curve of the boom and maybe dont need the wire.

    it works great.
    There's one rich man onboard and there's twentyfive poor men and they enjoy it more then the rich man does -Jim Kilroy when asked if yacht racing is a rich mans sport.

  23. #58
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    Thanks Mike
    The Riviera is impressive. Sweet understated build and finish and such a wild sail plan. A great project overall – your passion for history is obvious. I hope you manage to make the trip soon when you’ve got enough fingers and euros.

    Re JBSkiff planking. I note ½” white cedar and “too sweet to lapstrake”. I also note your disdain for epoxy. Are you thinking carvel?

    I really like the balanced jib. I’ll redraw my rig when I get a chance, making the jib a bit pointier – not quite extreme, but a bit sexier. Air here is typically light in sailing season so it should be ok.
    Charlie

  24. #59
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    I think you'll need the luff wire. A little hollow in the luff should deal with the problem of luff sag. The jib should work better with a stayed mast. The trouble with jibs on unstayed masts is that when a puff hits, the luff sags and the sail gets fuller, which isn't what you want.

    You'll find the pivot point of the sail is fairly far foward -- maybe 25-35 percent back from the luff. If you get the attachment point too far aft the luff will try to pivot away from the wind. Also, the farther foward the pivot point, the easier it is to keep the luff tight. This means that after you get the jib cut, you can play with the attachment point to adjust how full the sail is. I've been playing with this on a sharpie, but there's got to be someone out there with more experience with the rig than I have. One nice thing, you can put a block for the downhaul on the bowsprit, and when you lower the sail, you release the downhaul and you can pull the sail back into the cockpit. You don't even have to go forward of the mast to handle the jib.

    I love Riviera, and Mike, I hope you did finally make plans for it. Wouldn't it be sweet if WoodenBoat could sell the plans and copies of this lovely boat could start populating the waterways? It's about the same dimensions as my Snipe, but looks faster, drier and roomier.

  25. #60
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    Riv plans will eventually exist but it will have to wait for more sailing adventures and time to test the boat and rig, the mast seems awful bendy and I must perfect this before drawing plans even if the dimensions came from Nat himself. getting the boat in the water is only part of the thing,
    What I do know understand is she is built for distance sailing and is rather fussy to rig for a daysailer, she requires 2 people to sail due to puffs, she is not a tippy boat. the mast in the front needs attention as the shrouds are in the way when sailing downwind.

    so how interested are you in building one?
    send me a PM if you are serious

    due to my accident Im not sailing her as I could never pull up the 5mm cotton halyards without ripping off my skingraft on my index finger,

    I am so happy my good friend will take me sailing tomarrow for an overnight on his 26ft boat, My mind will feel better.

    but HEY, this thread is about Boatbear´s beautiful project
    if you want to discuss RIV then paste a question on my old thread

    with respect to BB
    mike
    Last edited by mike hanyi; 08-07-2007 at 04:31 PM. Reason: respect
    There's one rich man onboard and there's twentyfive poor men and they enjoy it more then the rich man does -Jim Kilroy when asked if yacht racing is a rich mans sport.

  26. #61
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    Thanks again, John. Good info. I have drawn two more sail plan options, both using the original main. Option 2 is without a bowsprit – pivot point on the stem, and 30% along the foot of the jib. Option 3 is somewhat larger, uses the bowsprit, pivot point also at 30%. The drawing shows centroid details and areas. Total sail area for Option 3 is the same as the original Chapelle sprit rig.



    It comes down to aesthetics now, and I like them both, with perhaps a slight leaning towards Option 3. I hope the lead of 275mm (11”) will give me sufficient weather helm for safety and comfort.

    Enjoy your sailing sleepover, Mike. Look after those fingers, eh? I have some further thoughts on Riviera, which I will address to your thread.
    Charlie

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    I'd leave enough room on the setup so that you can move the pivot point closer to the luff if you need to. Balanced jibs are not reputed to be great to windward, by the way, but they are wonderful reaching and running. They were used on the sandbaggers, which were the ultimate racing boats of their age, but usually with the pivot point well forward on the boom. I suspect their popularity on sandbaggers may have had something to do with being able to get the jib put way without sending someone to the end of a 20-foot bowsprit.

    Mike, I won't be building the boat, but I think it would be a better world if more boats like this existed. Wish I had the skills, funds and time to build one.

  28. #63
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    Nov 2000
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    its a gaff rig, you allready made the decsion not to be the best to windward.

    the reason I suggested the balanced rig WITHOUT the bowsprit is that you dont need a bowsprit making it a simple boat to rig and sail, I would also have a jib to tack on the bow that is smaller so I can depower the boat.

    also I think with a boat this small with stayed mast that the tabernacle is not so important, I would lean more toward a one piece stick to keep it simple. it might weigh 10 kilos which is not very heavy.
    There's one rich man onboard and there's twentyfive poor men and they enjoy it more then the rich man does -Jim Kilroy when asked if yacht racing is a rich mans sport.

  29. #64
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    Nov 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatbear View Post
    One thing that bothers me about the sprit rig is that the sprit interrupts sail shape half the time, ie when the stick is behind the sail. I made one for my first boat (a plywood pram dinghy) and had a lot of fun with it, learning how to sail. The boat had all the grace of a tomato crate and the sprit rig looked the part; that is, just as weird. And that’s the other thing that bothers me about the rig. Other sailboats would move away if I blundered into their range of vision. Their crews, smug with their tall, graceful Bermudan rigs, would laugh openly as they whooshed past me. Have I offended any Sprit aficionados out there?
    For my next boat (Swampscott dory) I used a gaff rig. It points a lot higher, looks (and is) competent, and can be raised and lowered very quickly. There’s a lot to be said for having a mainsail attached to the mast with string. It has also surprised some other crews out on the water with its performance to windward.
    I think the 17’ Hampden would work nicely with a gaff rig. Of course there would be a fair bit of mucking about with the design of the rig – a challenge I look forward to. I have just set up Free!ship and am looking forward to modelling the Hampden to assist with all this.
    And, like TomF's situation, the renovations lurk, just behind me, claiming 'Top of List' status.
    I also like the Australian Couta Boat, but don’t know if it can be scaled down to 5 to 5.5m (17-18’) effectively. This size is optimum, I think, for my needs – easy to trailer, simple to rig, easy to row, and suited to my tastes. Favourite boating involves lots of chatting, sipping wine or beer, making interesting sandwiches, cooling down with a swim, exploring rivers and lakes, etc ..
    Seaworthiness is also important, and the Hampden has that for sure.
    There will always be some boat that swishes by you, and all you remember as you are falling asleep was how big and fast and smooth and perfect it was, and the flash of the polished stainless.They did not seem to know you were there.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

  30. #65
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    Feb 2007
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    Bethanga, Victoria, Australia
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    John, good advice. If I go with Option 3 I’ll make the bowsprit long enough that I can revert to an unbalanced jib arrangement if necessary, and everything in between. Things are somewhat experimental (for me at least) and I want to keep options open. I imagine that running ‘wing-and-wing’ would be a blast with the balanced rig.
    The main disadvantage I can see with the balanced rig is that it wouldn’t be possible to drop all sails without losing tension on the stays.

    Mike, I would leave the bowsprit permanently attached. The tabernacle is all about rigging time. It used to take me 25 minutes to rig the dory before I made the tabernacle. Now it’s a matter of lifting the mast, yanking on the forestay downhaul and I can raise the sails and go. Everything stays attached and it takes less than 4 minutes. I can go sailing on those perfect afternoons after work when the ripple on the water is just right – the lake is about 3km away and I can hitch the boat trailer to the car and be sailing in less than 15 minutes. I want to get that time down a bit more with this one.

    And thanks Donald - I know, I know.
    Charlie

  31. #66
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    Aug 2005
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    SF Bay Area- Richmond
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    How will you remove the jib from the spar in either of the above plans? Or is the idea to just drop it and lash what you can reach to the spar?

    Reaching the tack of the jib was something I'd never really thought about, as all my previous boats were without bowsprits.

    But after spending some dangerous moments hanging over the bow of my dory skiff (transom comes out of the water if I'm singlehanding), I realized that I needed to be able to remove or change headsails without going back to the dock/ramp.

    So now I have a loop of line that the tack attaches to, and can pull that forward end of the headsail back within reach when necessary.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  32. #67
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    Nov 2001
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    Seattle
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    What I've been doing on the sharpie is running a line from the attachment point for the jib through a block at the end of the bowsprit and back to the cocpit. When I want to take the jib down, I release this line, pull in on the sheet, and the whole sail comes back into the cockpit and into the lee of the main. I can lower the jib right into the cockpit. Doesn't matter where the attachement point is.

  33. #68
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    Feb 2007
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    Bethanga, Victoria, Australia
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    Thorne, with the dory I have a block on the end of the bowsprit and a block on the end of the forestay wire for extra purchase. The downhaul cleats to the side of the bowsprit. Hang on; a picture is worth quite a few words, eh?



    The jib stays shackled onto the wire. I can lower the jib (leaving the forestay tensioned) and leave the jib draped over the foredeck if I want to do some fishing, or release the forestay downhaul and lower the mast if I want to go under the bridge.

    What I’m concerned about with the balanced jib is that it won’t be possible to keep the stays tensioned in the former situation. The boom and gaff will be hanging in the lazyjacks and the mast and stays will be flopping about in, er … an untidy manner. With an unstayed mast, this wouldn’t be a problem, as in your situation JohnW. I think I’ll revert to the first option, but might make the jib a bit pointier. I’m having fun with all this, BTW.

    Thanks for the input, gentlemen.
    Charlie

  34. #69
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    Mar 2005
    Location
    Albany, NY
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    1,793

    Default Re: 17' Hampden (Hampton) boat

    Since the 24 foot Hampton boat appears farther up in this old thread, I should offer this bit of oral history:

    Decades ago, I was in Bud McIntosh's shop. I was pretty young then and he shortly after wrote an article in which he mentioned young yacht designers who think they know everything but can't even identify white oak with the bark on. There was also a quote that seemed uncomfortably familiar but I've forgotten exactly what it was.

    I do remember though that one of the bits of wisdom I tried to pass on to him was that it was pretty hard to design a boat that flat out wouldn't work. You might not get exactly the characteristics you wanted but almost anything that looked like a boat would work in some fashion.

    He said something like, "Well, Howard Chappelle designed one that wouldn't work. I built that 24 foot Hampton boat with the long sharp bow for him as his personal boat. We took it out on sea trials and that long wedge with the weight of the mast up in the ends just went sawing up and down and the waves and spray poured over the boat. Chappie was huddled down in the cockpit looking as sick and distressed as I've ever seen a man look on a boat. As far as I know, that boat never sailed again."

    The 17 footer is more normally proportioned and I would expect her to be a great boat but that 24 footer does look to me like the kind of thing an architect might try for himself but would never risk for a client.
    Roger Long

  35. #70
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    Feb 2007
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    Bethanga, Victoria, Australia
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    Default Re: 17' Hampden (Hampton) boat

    Ah, just caught this. Thanks for the yarn, Roger. I rather like tales of human fallibility - they give me heart – I can happily blunder on, now.
    Charlie
    "It's never too late to have a happy childhood."

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