New Boat Project - Skiff Opinions Wanted

[markeike]

Hi all. I’m in the planning phase of my first homemade boat project and I was hoping to collect some free advice and/or opinions from any experts out there who in interested in commenting.

I want an open launch somewhere between 18’ and 20’ long with a beam of about 6 feet that can carry 5 or 6 passengers (adults and kids), and can run quietly and efficiently at 7 to 10 knots with a 15 to 20HP outboard. I will primarily be cruising and fishing Lake Washington and Puget Sound and the locks and ship canal between them in Seattle, WA. I favor a flat bottom as they are simpler to both design and build, and they are more stable and carry more weight for a given size. I won’t be out in exposed waters and the low speed and protected waters should make pounding a non-issue. I like an exposed motor well – it provides for a more traditional look without an outboard hanging of the stern, it moves the weight of the outboard farther forward, and allows for better access to the motor. I plan on saturating the surfaces with epoxy and following with marine paint but I’d like to have some brightwork in easily refinished areas like the removable floor boards, the combing, and the fore-deck.

I started by looking at some boats that are available in plan form. I like the looks of the Carolina Dories like the Sweet Caroline from www.glenl.com, and Carolina Dory Skiff from www.sandypointboatworks.com. I also like some cabin skiffs like the Skiff America 20 (www.skiffamerica20.com) and the Redwing 18 (www.cmdboats.com), but the cabins are an integral part of the structure so they would require lot of rework. I also like some of the V-hull boats like the Simmons Sea Skiff (www.simmonsseaskiff.com), and the Bartender (www.bartenderboats.com) but I’m afraid they might be a bit complicated for my first effort.

I decided to try my hand at designing my own. I’m an industrial designer with about 25 years of CAD experience (www.eikedesign.com). I’ve never designed a boat but I’m of Norwegian descent so I figure there’s a genetic component that should help J. Anyway, I kind of stole the best of all these boats and came up with the design shown below. I built a quick stitch and glue prototype out of 3/16” hardboard complete with flotation chambers and it floated very near the projected waterline with the designed loading (note water filled zip-lock bags). It is completely unsinkable and pushing it underwater simply causes the boat to pop back up to the top of the motor well. I have not done any tow tests yet but for now I’m happy with the results of the float tests.

At this point, I’m on the fence between designing my own boat and buying plans. I like the idea of being able to say that I designed and built a boat all by myself and non of the plans are exactly what I want, but I’m worried about possible performance issues of an untried design. I’m putting the call out for opinions regarding my current design and if the response from experts is generally favorable, I’ll probably continue my efforts. If not, I’ll revert to a tried and true design like the Seaskiff and be content with doing a custom interior. Please be brutally honest but kind. J Thanks.

I can’t seem to get the upload to work so hopefully these links will work.

http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/hull-ortho.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/hull-capacity.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/hull-flood.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/hull-rendering.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/swamp.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/stern.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/MyFiles/boat/side.jpg

[Hal Forsen]

I have been aboard a Simmons 18' and own a 19' Calkins Bartender; Even at low speeds I wouldn't even consider more then 4 people aboard either boat and it'd be tight at that. Especially if everyone is fishing.
My 2 cents.
Welcome Aboard BTW and Good Luck
HF

[sv Lorelei]

Nice work. Looks like a lot of rocker in the bow though. My instincts say she'd ride bow high and squat like a bear during blueberry season without a couple of meaty mates on the front seat. I'd tend to want to carry the flare of the sides forward too.

If your considering the type take a look at Atkin's Sally Hyde. One of my favorite utilities for real get the job done looks.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut...allieHyde.html

[peter osberg]

I would think that the hull weight should feature in your designs as visiting beaches in the northwest is an opportunity not to be missed. Don't worry about your designs, your genetic background will pull you through, peter

[pipefitter]

If you can read a tape measure, run a circular saw and plot a fair curve with a batten,you can build the Simmons 20 with no problem. A wide beamed,flat bottom boat does not read displacement characteristics at all to me. It will still pitch you about and slap at slow speeds.The softer entries of the narrower beamed, flat bottom or semi vee'd boats seem to enjoy the best of both worlds especially when loaded.I'd be more inclined to build a displacement hull if that was the predominant intended usage.

[Dave Wright]

Quote: "...I want an open launch somewhere between 18’ and 20’ long with a beam of about 6 feet that can carry 5 or 6 passengers (adults and kids), and can run quietly and efficiently at 7 to 10 knots with a 15 to 20HP outboard. I will primarily be cruising and fishing Lake Washington and Puget Sound and the locks and ship canal between them in Seattle, WA...."

I run in exactly the area you describe. I built an 18 foot Tolman skiff and use a 40 horse outboard. It throws a bit of a wake at 7 knots but is still quite economical at that speed. It planes very nicely just a little above that speed. With one person aboard it can just kiss 30 MPH. I can't imagine wanting to routinely carry six adults in this size boat, but it will take them safely and with no sweat.

I mention this boat because it will cover the operational range you mention, but will also handle the performance regime you might very likely want in the near future (needs and wants change!).

It will handle far better than a flat bottomed skiff. I've been between the two floating bridges in 30 knot winds, and I think you'd be a lot happier with the Tolman than the flat bottom skiff in those conditions.

I think a vee bottom is simpler to build than a flat bottom, particularly with stitch and glue, and the very low part count and minimal framing of the Tolman. You get a lot of boat for minimal building effort.

Not discouraging you doing your own design, just mentioning a way to get on the water quickly and in roughly the envelope you describe, with a simple, homebuilt, and very able boat.

Dave Wright

[markeike]

If your considering the type take a look at Atkin's Sally Hyde. One of my favorite utilities for real get the job done looks.

Thanks for the comments. I like many of the Atkins boats but there's not much detail on the site and I haven't found many build diaries so it's hard to tell how some of their boats are built. It seems like many of them might be carvel plank on steam bent frames and that's not the kind of thing I want to take on first time out.

[markeike]

I run in exactly the area you describe. I built an 18 foot Tolman skiff and use a 40 horse outboard. It throws a bit of a wake at 7 knots but is still quite economical at that speed. It planes very nicely just a little above that speed. With one person aboard it can just kiss 30 MPH. I can't imagine wanting to routinely carry six adults in this size boat, but it will take them safely and with no sweat.

Thanks for the comments. I looked at the Tolman 18 - even bought the book - but it's way too much boat for me. The method of construction seemed way more complicated than it needed to be, with all the complexity of a framed hull along with the messiness of stitch and glue fillets. I'm sure that it's warranted for an Alaskan fishing boat where they originated but it'll never see that level of usage by me.

I've had several boats - most recently a 2002 19' plastic Bayliner ('cuz they're cheap) - and I rarely opened it up all the way. Most of the time was spent at no-wake speed with that big wide transom trying to suck a hole in the water.

Also, when there are 30 knot winds on Lake Washington, I'll be home in Edmonds J.

[markeike]

I'd be more inclined to build a displacement hull if that was the predominant intended usage.

It's funny you should say that. I agree with you. I wish that I could find a nice plywood displacement hull in that range that takes an outboard. The nearest thing I've found is a 20' Banks Dory with a motor well (http://www.boat-links.com/DepoeBay/04/Tidewater-1.jpg), but I'd have to find suitable plans and modify them. There are a bunch of semi-displacement hulls from Glen-L and Sam Devlin but nothing that fits my needs. They all still have big fat transoms and oversized engines to compensate. I've even looked at taking one of the selway-fisher plywood steam launches and modifying them for an outboard motor well and putting in a 10HP high thrust motor.

[Steve Paskey]

Hi Markeike: I'm not really a powerboat guy, but I've spent way too much time looking at plans, and can suggest a few things that you might want to look at.

Ken Swan of Swan Boat designs has some nice flat-bottomed outboard skiffs for plywood construction. His Nez Perce 19 looks like it might fit your bill. Unfortunately, he doesn't have details for all of his designs on the web site -- you'd need to buy his catalog.
See: http://www.swanboatdesign.com/

You might also want to look at the skiffs from Tracy O'Brien.
http://www.tracyobrien.com/showcat.asp?id=2

[RodB]

I have an 18 foot slight "V" bottom stitch and glue skiff with a 90hp Yamanha...and a jet pump which cuts the power about 25%....still with 65hp with a jet I still would be dogging around with 6 people in the boat. My beam is 84" and I also have two sponsons on the back to give more flotation under the outboard to keep her level in shallows. Your asking alot of a hull for the parameters you list. My hull is a planing hull ...you might consider a displacement hull.

The Simmons Sea Skiff seems like it would be a great choice, and it comes in different sizes. Pipefitter can advise you and his is one sweet 18 foot boat along the lines you mentioned.

RodB

RB

[Dave Wright]

Quote:"..... I looked at the Tolman 18 - even bought the book - but it's way too much boat for me. The method of construction seemed way more complicated than it needed to be, with all the complexity of a framed hull along with the messiness of stitch and glue fillets...."

Fair enough. I'd guess your impression came from the book, which I would agree is unnecessarily complicated and cumbersome to follow for what is actually a very simple boat - comparable in simplicity to the O'Brien Predator, another similar and capable North West boat.

When you see the actual boat the simplicity of them stands out. A good set of plans would reveal the simplicity; the book doesn't do the simplicity justice.

If you ever revisit the Tolman, just for fun you might do a detailed part count for the finished boat, and compare it to a conventionally framed boat like the Simmons (a very nice boat too!). I think you'll be very much surprised by the very much lower number of individual parts.

I've been the Bayliner route too, precisely because they're cheap and available, and agree with your comments. The big difference comes in the very much lighter weight of the skiff you build yourself, so dragging a wide transom is not half as bad as with the Bayliner. The shallower vee helps lot's too.

Best wishes in your search for the boat you want.

Dave Wright

[markeike]

I have an 18 foot slight "V" bottom stitch and glue skiff with a 90hp Yamanha...and a jet pump which cuts the power about 25%....still with 65hp with a jet I still would be dogging around with 6 people in the boat. My beam is 84" and I also have two sponsons on the back to give more flotation under the outboard to keep her level in shallows. Your asking alot of a hull for the parameters you list. My hull is a planing hull ...you might consider a displacement hull.

I really think you are right about the displacement hull. My first boating experience was in "Mokko", my grandparents' "sjekte" in Norway about 40 years ago.

http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/My...r_on_mokko.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~markeike/My...boat/mokko.jpg

I think that boat was about 20' long and could carry about 10 people on a family outing. I also took it out in 6 foot seas to haul in fishing lines and it could carry about 1500 pounds of fish and a crew of 3 all with a 10 HP one-banger Saab engine. The displacement hull made it extremely efficient, seaworthy and able to carry a huge load. I wish that I could find plans for something similar to Mokko that was a little smaller, and way easier to build.

[pipefitter]

The frames on the little Simmons took me 6 hrs to cut and sand,the chines and motorwell was a day. Had the bottom and first side planks on in a little over a week into the build.A half day glassing the bottom and another weekend for the rest of the planks. I spent alot of time staring at it so I could have made it quicker but i pretty much putzed thru it with people stopping by which also took a bit of the time.I fooled with the interior for 2 weeks with most of that being indecision.

Every step fits in a weekend weather permitting being I built mine outdoors.This is just to give you an idea of a partially framed boat as far as work,parts and difficulty are concerned.

With all that said,the real work was in the finishing.Building the boat was pleasing.The sanding/fairing took much perseverance and self discipline. So no matter what you build or what style,the same amount of finish work will most likely be the same in either which will soon make you forget any pains it took to build it.

The closest thing I can think of with low hp requirements would be Atkin's "Ninigret" but if I recall correctly,it's not a simple boat to build.

The smallest motor I could see putting on a Simmons 20 would be around 40hp. Reason being,a 40 is really not that much more cost than a 25 and it would have an easier life. The newer 4 strokes enjoy a much wider powerband than the 2 strokes and you could enjoy it's quietness,efficiency at the lower speeds and not be working it to death when you have more people in the boat.

One last thing to consider is that some modern constructed boats need molds to hold their shape and bulkheads after the fact. Add longitudal stringers and such and you are right at framing a boat albeit in different directions possibly and some of those parts become useless when the boat is complete.A floor framed boat is really not much more to consider and it gives you the benefit of included deck framing by default.It sure is nice to open the hatches and see all that mahogany in there .

[AngWood]

Atkin is the way to go. Take a look at Mitty-Ann: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut.../MittyAnn.html and Tom Davin: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut.../TomDavin.html
and Seven Days: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut...SevenDays.html
I believe all are displacement (or semi-displacement) and buildable in plywood. With the aft rocker, they'd drag their transoms much less than the Tolman or your own design.

[markeike]

Agreed. All three boats have beautiful lines but they all show inboard engines which, although efficient, are expensive and complicated to install compared to an outboard. I'd have to modify the designs which is probably not that easy for a plywood on frame design (compared to a stitch and glue hull) and the weight shift might cause problems. I might have to spring for a few study plans to evaluate them.

Atkin is the way to go. Take a look at Mitty-Ann: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut.../MittyAnn.html and Tom Davin: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut.../TomDavin.html
and Seven Days: http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Ut...SevenDays.html
I believe all are displacement (or semi-displacement) and buildable in plywood. With the aft rocker, they'd drag their transoms much less than the Tolman or your own design.

[markeike]

The frames on the little Simmons took me 6 hrs to cut and sand,the chines and motorwell was a day. Had the bottom and first side planks on in a little over a week into the build.A half day glassing the bottom and another weekend for the rest of the planks. I spent alot of time staring at it so I could have made it quicker but i pretty much putzed thru it with people stopping by which also took a bit of the time.I fooled with the interior for 2 weeks with most of that being indecision.

Two questions on your beautifully done Sea Skiff-

1. I had sent you an email separately through your website and found out that you used 3/8" for the planks. One thing that confused me was that I saw a mention of some people riveting the planks at the laps, and on other builds I've seen a row of clamps apparently holding a thickened epoxy joint. Which way did you go with it?

2. What is the slow speed performance of the boat (7-8 knots)? Does it track pretty well or does it slide all over the place? Does it have a lot of turbulence at the transom with 2 or 3 people aboard and throw a big wake or does it sit pretty high in the water?

Thanks.

[pipefitter]

I only use it for 2 people max. It "could" carry 4 if it "had" to but it would be setting at rest above designed waterline.I would opt for the 20 if you are going to carry 4.In the pictures of my skiff at rest there is also about 25 gals of water in the bilge from my buddy continuously dumping the ventilated baitbucket in it all day,plus emptying the castnet in the boat being ill prepared and bait anxious.

I built this boat with a 12" quick-grip,2- 8" jorgies and a couple small c-clamps. I used the plywood clothespin clamps for the laps and sacrificial countersunk #6 SS sheetmetal screws. No rivets nevessary with epoxied laps.I found the plywood clothespin clamps much easier than obtaining or fiddling with deep throated bar clamps or making the mechanical pinch clamps. I used windlasses for deep clamping needs.

The boat tracks very well and is most evident while drift fishing being able to use the lowered outboard as a rudder effectively with the adjustments being nearly instantly effective. Underway, it goes where you point it at any speed. No sliding. It wont let you slide it because it will keel on it's chine before it slips and the turbulence in the motorwell negates any sliding as well.It will stand on it's ears in a sharp turn though but it's not scarey and you dont need to steer this nimble boat that hard anyways. I run it at below planing speeds alot moving around the fishing grounds with ease. It's just too small for more than 2 people. On the upside of that,I can launch it from shore single handedly.It's been perfect for what I do. I am considering building the low sided 20 but for the life of me,I don't know what I would do with it.

[Spokaloo]

This promises to be a very interesting thread!

Firstly, what would be the harm in continuing with your design process, but cutting your teeth on an existing design for the first build? You can get a sense for what you want in your boat as compared with the one you build, and its easier to wrap your head around the functions of a build without adding the issues of a self-designed boat that may be uncooperative with the materials. As an example, here is a simple S&G dory hull with low power requirements, the ability to live in the displacement or planing worlds, and roughly the capacity you want:

http://www.bateau.com/studyplans/OD18_study.htm

Build it, see what you like and what you don't, then sell it when you build your personally designed boat.

As for your lines, it looks like a good little boat. Maybe try to take the bow into more of a Pacific power dory style (fuller, steep curves), would give you the capacity you seek.

Promises to be interesting!

E

[TomMcKinney]

You mentioned somehting about wanting a grand banks style to run at displacement with on OB well- here you go--
http://spirainternational.com/hp_gbdories.html

BTW- I currently have a Glen-L designed little hunk that does great at displacment speeds- might even trade the big 50hp it has for smaller motor (like an 18) an just run her at those speeds- builder shrank her to 15.5 ft and I think she might have to much rocker for highspeed work- Point is, those square ended dories do just fine at low speeds.

That being said, I always like to point out the original Lumber Yard Skiff by Walter Baron- 20 ft, slat bottom, carries a big load, don't have to put a planing motor on, and you can build any cabin you want- the low initial cost of the hull helps if you decide to pretty her up beyond her work boat heritage, or add lots of convenieince items and electronics.
I would suggest reading this
http://www.oldwharf.com/ow_building20lys.html

[pipefitter]

The Simmons Sea Skiff seems like it would be a great choice, and it comes in different sizes. Pipefitter can advise you and his is one sweet 18 foot boat along the lines you mentioned.

RodB

RB

Thanks for the compliments RodB. I sent you a priv msg concerning showing pictures of your flats boat in a wood boat thread on a modern boat/fishing forum. There wasn't anything like it and I thought it a great example. That turned out to be a great flats boat. I wouldn't mind building one of those either.Perfect for Florida for sure.

[Hal Forsen]

How about a St. Pierre Dory?

Low power, seaworthy, easily built.....


HF

[markeike]

You mentioned somehting about wanting a grand banks style to run at displacement with on OB well- here you go--
http://spirainternational.com/hp_gbdories.html

I definately like the Alaskan. It looks simple to build but it's hard to tell how many it can comfortably carry. Looks like only about 3, maybe 4. I also have heard that Banks Dories are a bit tippy unless they are heavily loaded - low initial stability but great reserve bouyancy (if I got that correct). Anyone out there build one of these?

BTW- I currently have a Glen-L designed little hunk that does great at displacment speeds- might even trade the big 50hp it has for smaller motor (like an 18) an just run her at those speeds- builder shrank her to 15.5 ft and I think she might have to much rocker for highspeed work- Point is, those square ended dories do just fine at low speeds.

That being said, I always like to point out the original Lumber Yard Skiff by Walter Baron- 20 ft, slat bottom, carries a big load, don't have to put a planing motor on, and you can build any cabin you want- the low initial cost of the hull helps if you decide to pretty her up beyond her work boat heritage, or add lots of convenieince items and electronics.
I would suggest reading this
http://www.oldwharf.com/ow_building20lys.html

Both the LYS and the Hunk series are on my short list, but I think if I was to go the flat-sided skiff route, I prefer the carolina dories in that they have a little more drama in the bow.

Thanks

[markeike]

How about a St. Pierre Dory?

Low power, seaworthy, easily built.....

HF

Also a good possibility, although most of the ones I've seen available in plan form are in the 25' to 27' range with a cabin. It also seems that about 25% of the length is used up by the pronounced bow and stern.

[Peter Page]

I have a Simmons 18 and it is a great fishing boat, can handle rough water but noway would I try to take more than 3 people out in it. What about a Rufus 20?
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Mc1620.htm

[J. Spira]

I like your design - a lot. As another has mentioned, the rocker in the bow is pretty strong, reminiscent of the Pacific Power dories common up there in your neck of the woods - more intended for fast powering through sloppy conditions. For the usage you describe, you really don't need much rocker - like a Carolina dory:



And they'll handle a good load of people.

There's a lot of satisfaction in launching your own boat of your own design, so I'd encourage you to keep at it until you're happy with the results. If you PM or e-mail me, I'll be happy to help you out with any design details you might like to discuss.

- Jeff

[pipefitter]

I should also clarify that when you said 6ft beam ,I thought you were talking about at the chines because of the displacement discussions,hence my comment about being wide. I didn't notice that the pictures you posted at the beginning of the topic were expandable, so now I can see the numbers.Because of the ample amount of flare and substantial freeboard differences fore to aft of the dory types,overall beam measurements are somewhat misleading when trying to think in terms of displacement characteristics. Also,my first post to this topic is missing where i initially responded to the effect that the design looked like it would work. The only thing I saw issue with was no rake at the motor transom.It should be a minimum of 10º or else your outboard motor may not have optimum trim adjustment.

[markeike]

I like your design - a lot. As another has mentioned, the rocker in the bow is pretty strong, reminiscent of the Pacific Power dories common up there in your neck of the woods - more intended for fast powering through sloppy conditions. For the usage you describe, you really don't need much rocker - like a Carolina dory:



And they'll handle a good load of people.

There's a lot of satisfaction in launching your own boat of your own design, so I'd encourage you to keep at it until you're happy with the results. If you PM or e-mail me, I'll be happy to help you out with any design details you might like to discuss.

- Jeff

Jeff- Thanks for the compliment. I love your site and your designs. I was looking at the Carolinian earlier. If that boat had sufficient thwarts, what would you expect the capacity to be for that boat for relatively protected waters? I noticed that the picture of the 24' Key Largo on your site has about a dozen people in it with plenty of freeboard left but I can't project that to the 18'.

On my design, the rocker up front was primarily intended to aid in launching and retrieving. I've heard comments that Carolina dories can get pretty banged up when launching on a steep ramp. Is that something to be concerned about?

Thanks

[markeike]

I should also clarify that when you said 6ft beam ,I thought you were talking about at the chines because of the displacement discussions,hence my comment about being wide. I didn't notice that the pictures you posted at the beginning of the topic were expandable, so now I can see the numbers.Because of the ample amount of flare and substantial freeboard differences fore to aft of the dory types,overall beam measurements are somewhat misleading when trying to think in terms of displacement characteristics. Also,my first post to this topic is missing where i initially responded to the effect that the design looked like it would work. The only thing I saw issue with was no rake at the motor transom.It should be a minimum of 10º or else your outboard motor may not have optimum trim adjustment.

The width at the chine is 4' based on the width of a piece of plywood. This was chosen to save material, allow me to build a reasonably sized scarfing jig (already built- I'll post some photos sometime), and to get a nice big length to width ratio to help optimize the hull speed and reduce the transom width.

Good point on the motor transom - I took a second look at some motor well sections and they all had a 13 to 15 degrees rake. I missed that. Thanks!



I still can't figure out the image linking. I tried the [img]link[/img] tags and the <img src="link"> tags but neither worked (although they worked in a test HTML page). I tried the procedure listed in the FAQ but no luck. I put the image above in using the "Insert Image" button in the posting interface but it's not clear to me whether it's inserting a copy of the image in the forum or linking to my webspace. Anyway, if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

[pipefitter]

Trying the tag method


I used the tag method I msg'd you with for this picture by pasting the link in your first post.I do like the boat. I liked it when I first looked at the pictures.One good thing about the raised fore section that if you are loading it on tilt trailer from sitting on the sand,it may allow you to get the trailer roller or bunks under the front of the boat without having to contact the stem which if unprotected,will damage most one part paints.

As it is,with the raised stem of my Simmons,I don't have to submerge the trailer and the first roller contacts the keel shoe aft of the stem where the tougher bottom paint is.

It's linking to your web space. If you remove the picture from your space,a red x will appear in place of the photo.

[markeike]

A few more notes on my design. I am designing the boat in Solidworks with an eye towards stitch and glue (at least originally), which requires the development of flat patterns from 3D data. Solidworks is a very sophisticated piece of software but it's not designed for stitch and glue boat design. To get around this, I've been using the "sheet metal" features which provide some ability to "unwrap" certain forms that are curved in one axis, but not warped. I judged this as being something I can live with as I plan on building with 3/8" (sides) and 1/2" (bottom) plywood which doesn't warp much anyway, but it does compromise the design somewhat.

The combination of the relatively large rocker and flared sides were also tweaked to allow a major timesaving feature - the sides can be ripped to a single width - no lofting. As I stated earlier, I decided on the width at the chine based on the width of a piece of plywood and a simplified scarfing operation. Both are also compromises.

Making the switch to plywood on frame, which I am more inclined to do at this point, would certainly remove some of the compromises as I can cut the plywood wild and trim to the frame.

Will I get more satisfaction from building a tried and true design and then customizing it, or building my own design that may or may not be full of compromises. Hard to say at this point but I think I’ll at least pursue a loaded tow test in the spring with the model to see how it behaves above its hull speed. In the meantime, I’ll start preparing my shop for whichever way I decide to go. Thanks for all the input and I’ll continue to check on this thread as long as there are responses.

Thanks!

[pipefitter]

Will I get more satisfaction from building a tried and true design and then customizing it, or building my own design that may or may not be full of compromises. Hard to say at this point but I think I’ll at least pursue a loaded tow test in the spring with the model to see how it behaves above its hull speed. In the meantime, I’ll start preparing my shop for whichever way I decide to go. Thanks for all the input and I’ll continue to check on this thread as long as there are responses.

Thanks!

I feel just completing a proven design and seeing it to the end,having everything work and realizing such an achievement is as good as it gets. Reason being? Most of these dory types have been tried and without a statement to the self designed effect from yourself,anyone that knows enough to care will see it as another dory so to speak until you tell them. Chances are that you are crossing perameters already in use and I think a real self design would have to depict something trendsetting or a new idea not thought of. Then there's always the chance of the nose thumbers silently accusing you of copying something else if it bears any resemblance to other boats.But then again,it's up to you. I personally don't care what others think which is why I somewhat changed my Simmons.I am the one that has to use it and look at it. I am glad I didn't go with the traditional flow now that it's done. I love my boat.
Mark,thanks for sharing your project. I enjoyed discussing it.

[peter osberg]

I would suggest that you will get extra pleasure and satisfaction if it is (at least partly) your own creation. By 'rack of eye' used to be the guiding principle for boatbuilding and the are great books for background and rules of thumb. Paint by numbers will get you a picture but...... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and no doubt you will be happy with the lines you are starting with. Some would be quick to say it needs to be left to the designers or planmakers however there is no dearth of commercial designs that only their mothers would love. peter

[AngWood]

Agreed. All three boats have beautiful lines but they all show inboard engines which, although efficient, are expensive and complicated to install compared to an outboard. I'd have to modify the designs which is probably not that easy for a plywood on frame design (compared to a stitch and glue hull) and the weight shift might cause problems. I might have to spring for a few study plans to evaluate them.

Dang. I always think that the more Atkin boats get built, the better.

Keep them in mind, though. It isn't that hard to modify a plywood-on-frame hull.

[sv Lorelei]

Will I get more satisfaction from building a tried and true design and then customizing it, or building my own design that may or may not be full of compromises.

All boats to some degree are compromises, so it really becomes a question of whether you derive more satisfaction from building your own compromises, or building someone elses. But there is no perfect boat for a given range of conditions when that range has any degree of breadth. It's a goal to strive for, but there's a lot about the way we use boats that create structural tug-of-wars between particular desired parameters.

I've done it both ways. I've designed and built two ply on frame tenders, the first of which came out reasonably well, and the second of which I'm extremely happy with. I've also built and worked on differernt NA's designs and at the end of the day it all comes down to fitness for the intended purpose. Any well constructed craft that meets or exceeds your expectations is going to give pleasure and instill confidence when properly used.

I think I derive more pleasure from the thought that a boat does what it was intended to do well, that from anything connected to whether it was myself or someone else who drew her up.

Having said that, there is much to small boat design that should be intuitive if you study and ponder long enough. There are always tweaks to be made next time around, or for particular variant purposes and I think it's a rare designer who doesn't expect this to be the case.

[J. Spira]

Jeff- Thanks for the compliment. I love your site and your designs. I was looking at the Carolinian earlier. If that boat had sufficient thwarts, what would you expect the capacity to be for that boat for relatively protected waters? I noticed that the picture of the 24' Key Largo on your site has about a dozen people in it with plenty of freeboard left but I can't project that to the 18'.

Here you go:





I hadn't heard that about launch ramps, but I do understand how that could happen.

- Jeff

[Paul F]

You might like this,

http://www.thomasjhillboatdesigns.co...ong_point.html

-Paul

BTW, I like your design.

[Wiley Baggins]

markeike,

You might want to take a look at the plans from FOA. A link to the *.pdf document is below. Hopefully this will provide a boat to build or further inspiration.

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/007/y5649e/y5649e01.pdf

Paul F, thanks for that link to Thomas J. Hill's site. It's been a while since I looked at his work.

[markeike]

Thanks for the input. The Long Point Skiff is a little small for my needs but very nice lines. I have seen the FOA plans and I considered going that way except I couldn't find any build diaries out there so I was a little worried about the complexity and the ability to get help if I ran into trouble.

This week, I finally ordered a set of plans for the 18' Simmons Sea Skiff from the Cape Fear Museum along with the Simmons video that they sell. I just kept coming back to that boat and it's wonderful looks and logic of construction. I hope to get started on her this spring.

Thanks for all the helpful responses! Between family and work, there never seems to be the time I need to get anything done so it'll probably take a long time but I plan on posting info about my progress as I go.

[Wiley Baggins]

...This week, I finally ordered a set of plans for the 18' Simmons Sea Skiff from the Cape Fear Museum along with the Simmons video that they sell. I just kept coming back to that boat and it's wonderful looks and logic of construction. I hope to get started on her this spring....

Well, I've heard nothing but praise for the Simmons, although I haven't heard how many folks you'll want carry at any one time. I'm sure that those who know will chime in if they haven't done so already. You've probably seen the following, but on the off chance you haven't, it has a nice blurb on the Simmons as well as one for Robert W. Stephens' skiff, which also seems eminently suitable for your goals.

http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/SkiffDesigns.pdf

Good luck in making a final choice, and don't worry about "build logs." You'll do fine.