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Thread: Cancer fighting alternatives (George Jung, please participate)

  1. #1
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    Default Cancer fighting alternatives (George Jung, please participate)

    NOT interested in the wacky ideas, so whale scrotum, tiger penis, horse urine, dryer lint and the like are out.

    I've been reading up on vitamins and other supplements and it seems like some of them could be beneficial. There's a component in green tea called epigallocatechin gallate that has been shown to bond to and attack the anti-death gene in cancer cells for instance. It appears to be getting some serious attention in pharma research labs.

    Things like flavinoids, resveratrol (red wine extract), etc. have been in the news too for one thing or another.

    Anyone have any other reliable and reputable information on such things? My chemo is working, more or less, and will do so for as long as it does. If there's anything that can make it work better and/or longer and it does not have any adverse impacts, I think it's worth trying. You know what they say: better living through chemistry!
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    David,

    I don't know about reputable double blind studies, but if I were in your circumstance I'd go on a pilgrimage. Follow your intuition. It might lead you to a healing. What have you to lose?

    My impression, just an impression, is that your illness has something strong to do with mind. Mind is doubtless not the only component, but it seems a strong one.

    I don't want to be at all confrontational, or argumentative, that's just my impression.

    I do so wish you well. It's not fun being sick. Take a flier. Get to an experimental clinic as intuition directs.

    People do get well from deadly disease.

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    Ish..please .. you are doing it again. ... Meer wants to hear from docs. on the thread. which is why I haven't posted.....Let the docs like George respond....not us.. with way out ideas....
    I know you are trying in your way to help.. but I seriously don't think ya are....

    Not that there isn't something to what you say.. although not proven.. I suspect a pilgrimage is not in the offing...

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    I asked George Jung to particpate because he is a medical professional, but I'm open to all good ideas from anyone. Not really interested in the "get in touch with your feelings," "mind over matter" kinds of ideas. I don't think my attitude about my situation is negative, although I do have a few dark moments. Natural under the circumstances.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    Uncus,

    I don't know. I just wished David well, and that he follow his intuition regarding other treatments.

    Be well, David. My prayers and thoughts are with you. Check some other things out.

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    Lots of people come to the bride's cooking school to learn macrobiotic cooking with the belief that the diet will help build the immune system to help fight cancers.
    I just asked her if there were any suggestions coming from that school that would lessen the adverse effects of chemo. Her classic answer is miso soup, sea vegetables and brown rice.

    From my perspective I see people coming here to learn to take a bit of their diagnosis and treatment into their own hands.
    We will be attending a funeral tommorow. This guy was one of the nicest people I have ever met. It says in his obit. that he took things into his own hands and sought non traditional approaches which likely extended his life.

    I can't say he lived any longer but it was certain that we both benefited a great deal from our meeting due to his condition. Lots of people did.

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    Ish.. believe me.. I'm not uspet or mad.. I was just thinking that Meer was looking for a bit more.....Hence the response.
    Meer I hope George responds..... Wish I had something worthwhile to consider...

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    David, my mom and sister went gonzo on the Chinese herb stuff on recomendation of the accupuncturist. The general idea being to make the immune system as strong as possible, leaving chemo to battle the cancer.
    Awful tasting stuff and required multiple reductions that smelled up the house. With an electric burner on simmer and next to your window it should work ok.
    The cancer did what it did but she lived a year longer than the oncologist expected.

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    ..speaking anecdotaly (which is a lot of all there is in this front) - a man with pancreatic cancer and given a month to live, lived well for another 30 years by taking the nutritional approach. We're bio-chemical beings - all the body has at its disposal is what we give it to work with. If interested I'll track down his name/web site/info.
    Last edited by Nanoose; 12-14-2006 at 11:29 PM.

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    Tomatoes are frequently recommended for prostate cancer, lycopene and all that. Oatmeal is said to help reduce cholesterol. I eat a bowl everyday and my cholesterol ratios have markedly improved. We know fiber is necessary to a balanced diet. It's hard to improve on broccoli if you want a full load of nutritional value. Tofu and miso are good, and good for you, and so it goes.

    Your diet could be better and even if it didn't cure your cancer it would improve other aspects of your life. Well worth looking into.
    And please quit smoking! I know it's far easier said than done, but man, what an improvement that will make.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 12-15-2006 at 12:19 AM.

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    Hey Meer, I was treated for prostate CA about eight years ago (radical prostatectomy). Granted this is a CA one can live with (and die of something else) but certainly medical treatment is only part of the equation. A sense of taking charge of your own healing is a very useful adjunct to chemo, etc. OK, I know you want the latest treatment breakthrough and options that Geoge Jung or other MD's might suggest but what I am suggesting could be helpful so shut the f--k up and listen. Based on my own experience I would suggest you consider the following: 1. Maintaining a reasonable and healthy ROUTINE level of activity (for example, a daily routine of exercise via yoga or chi kung for flexibility and strength, walking for cardiovascular). Yeah, I know you feel crappy at time, but do what you can. 2. Finding ways to affirm your body's ability to heal itself (in my case, through self talk, listening to Deepak Chopra CD's "The Soul of Healing Meditations," "Chakra Balancing: Body, Mind and Soul." 3. The mind-body connection is enormously important. I maintain hope (and healing), in part, through the information provided by Medical Doctors who have delved into this area (for example "Healing with the Mind's Eye") by Michael Samuels, M.D., "Extraordinary Healing," by Art Brownstein, MD, and various books by Andrew Weil and Deepak Chopra). 3. Use of vitamins and herbal supplements, if nothing else, can help to give you a sense of DOING SOMETHING to help yourself. I use a daily vitamin pill plus a little extra selenium, lycopene, and IP6 with inisotol. One can overdo the herbs and vitamins so go easy but select what you feel will work. 4. Keep the faith in your oncologist(s), as they can attack and control the CA from their end, but also realize that must use the potent healing system in your own body/mind. Select a path of self healing activity, change it as necessary, but maintain a ROUTINE. Remember, the path/routine is, in itself, the goal! You just do it. And if you currently smoke you could give yourself a goal of substituting a healthier habit.

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    Sorry I'm late to the party; 'fall band fest' last night, didn't see this until late. I'm not sure what I can add, in terms of complementary/ alternative therapies, and so the pause while I considered what to say.
    A few problems, disclaimers. I'm really reluctant to give any specific advice on an internet forum. To me, that borders on malpractice, and is certainly poor practice; so anything here is going to be generalities. Also, I'm in primary care; I don't do/don't follow oncology all that closely. You have an oncologist; I presume they come well recommended. They will probably know more about, not only the traditional treatments available to you, but also any alternative approaches (ensuring you don't do something that might actually adversely intereact with what they're doing) that show promise.
    That said, I'm unaware of any alternative therapies that have been scientifically shown to do better than the traditional medical approache. Note the disclaimer; I'm not aware; there may be something, but.....
    So what options would I recommend? You've gotten quite a few good ones here, already. Optimizing your lifestyle choices is a biggie. You Smoke? Eeek! That's a definite No! There's some incredibly nasty stuff in tobacco; it not only screws up the lungs, but causes inflammatory changes in the vasculature. There is evidence is messes with your immune system (higher rate of bladder/cervical cancer in smokers - now that's what you call taking a deep drag, eh?). Quitting is probably the biggest thing you can do to help your body fight this cancer, not to mention the stroke/heart attack/emphysema/lung cancer that's waiting around the corner.
    Diet change - while not having perhaps the same impact as the smoking cessation - would be a positive, as well. Macrobiotics? Perhaps useful; I've seen nothing (see above disclaimer) to prove it, scientifically, but it certainly would not be a negative, and in terms of other health benefits, definitely a positive.
    Exercise/Yoga etc. and peace of mind - a positive. For all of us, under any circumstance.
    One final thought. You might want to investigate experimental therapies, not to be confused with alternative therapy. These are treatment protocols that have not yet been proven in large studies; some will prove more successful than todays 'gold standard' of therapy, and will be tomorrows. I don't read that literature, so don't know what's available. Your oncologist would/should know if any exist. Otherwise, one goes to one of the medical meccas. In the midwest, that's Mayo clinic, or one of the biggies like Northwestern or U. Chicago. East coast, I think of Johns Hopkins; Ohio, Cleveland Clinic. West coast - perhaps U. Washington, or Stanford.
    If you are truly interested in this, I'd strongly suggest you discuss with your oncologist. Has something changed in your therapy? Are you not responding? Pick his brain.
    btw, a couple of websites
    www.cdc.gov and use their search engine
    www.quackwatch.com they at least discuss some of this.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    if you mix shyt and honey , you get .. shyt

    first order of business is to detoxify , what we can do today is like Ish said , clear your mind , find a quite place you like and go there ,

    start juicing green leafies and red fruits and eat fiber



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    From www.quackwatch.com:

    http://www.quackwatch.org/00AboutQua...h/altseek.html

    which addresses, specifically, alternative medicine approaches for cancer treatment. They highlight this article as a must read:

    http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...cs/cancer.html
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Re. George's second post, I suppose the rule is, don't substitute alternative procedures for standard medical treatments, as CA is not to be played with. That said, there is a lot of good outcome research involving effects of meditation, exercise, attending groups, visualization, denial, etc. used in conjunction with chemo, etc. I suggest you read at least some of the secondary info. Both quality of life and survival can be enhanced by one's own activities and belief systems.

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    Doggone it, Tristan.... what'd ya have to go and kill this thread for? grrrr....
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung
    Doggone it, Tristan.... what'd ya have to go and kill this thread for? grrrr....
    Well damn, if I'd attacked modern medicine the thread wouldn't have died, but against my better judgment I was nice and -- dammit!-- I killed the thread. Maybe I should have said that bat's wings stewed in goat's blood is the only true way to health and happiness. Good holidays to you George, from an old (73) thread killer.

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    George; I/my oncologist is at UW, one of the 10 best hospitals in the US. In fact, the whole state/county public health umbrella in Seattle is steller. "UW Physicians" staff both the county and state (UW) hospitals, as well as the Fred Hutch Cancer Center (aka Seattle Cancer Care Alliance or SCCA). SCCA is actually where I go for medical oncology. UW was where I went for radiation oncology. Harborview (aka "Harborzoo" ), the county facility (only real resort for people without health insurance, but also a regional trauma center), is where I had my thyroid surgery.

    Tristan; Physical exercise might be a good idea if I were able. As it is, I think my spine and pelvis continue to adjoin each other out of habbit. As my pelvis has collapsed, my right leg has lost a couple of inches and the clicking of my spine and sacroilliac sounds like a loose bag of bones. I'm surprised I can still walk at all and I can't walk far. Hurts constantly, or would but for meds. I have a tumor the size of my fist on my right shoulder blade.Sometimes it hurts, sometimes it doesn't, but range of motion is diminishing.

    Currently I'm wondering about cardiac insufficiency. Perhiperal edema and periodic Hemoptysis (fancy term for coughing up blood). Either it's my heart or it's a tumor yearning to be free. The way the old muscle pounds at times and the occasional hiccup do concern me as do the "sinking spells" where everything (everything!) seems to shut down for a moment and then I come back. I catch myself slumping.

    Perversly, my pariorbital tumor seems to be shrinking, although that's subjective. Feels like my left eye has receded somewhat from it's previous maximum. BTW, having laser eye surgery on the 21st to deal with retinal edema. Meds/diabetes/radiation issue.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    We can keep this thing going with no trouble at all.
    Tristan, George et al, just for the record and as David knows, I was also treated for prostate cancer (brachytherapy) and didn't mean to infer that tomatoes, broccoli, miso soup or anything else one might eat in whatever combination might act as a substitue for the best that modern medicine has to offer; far from that. David knows this, I just wanted to say it for the rest of you less I be misunderstood.
    I believe diet counts, modern medicine counts, doing the right things for yourself counts, but as David has said, he is the victim of an objectively difficult situation and some options aren't really open; especially much in the way of exersize. I'm not making excuses for him, that's a fact. I also find David's overall atitude to be generally upbeat; certainly not all of the time, but frequently so under the circumstances, and he obviously retains a good sense of humor.
    David, I still think the best thing you could do for yourself is to quit smoking, though I'm the first to admit it's a tough habit to beat. On a day to day basis, regarding my physical well being, there is nothing that has made me feel better ( from a pullmonary point of view) than not smoking cigarettes. There will probably be a part of me that misses smoking cigarettes for the rest of my life, but every morning I wake up and don't cough my brains out, I realize what a boon it has been to have given them up, and I'll say; the benefits were almost immediate in my case. There's no reason apart from a desire to be healthy to quit of course, but what are we talking about here? And what is there to lose by trying?

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    I read the quackenbush cancer article. Hard to believe what some people will put in their bodies.

    All I'm going to try is a green tea extract that has shown some results in legit labs and a mixed antioxident.

    You're right Lew; It's time to stop smoking.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    I care for you as you know, and this makes me happy to hear.

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    Best of luck with it Meer.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Well Meer, by exercise I meant ANYTHING you are capable of doing, any simple movements at all, done in a routine fashion, will be helpful. Again, there are books (ex. "The Healer Within," by Jahnke) which have such "exercises" for folks who are wheelchair bound. As Lew has suggested, a full range of treatment options is probably a whole lot better that just one. Accordingly, I think the green tea extract, combined with whatever mental therapies (meditation, visualization, etc.) you feel inclined to use, plus some simple in bed or in chair chi kung or yogic movement, plus just listening to CDs (chants, "healing" music, etc.), plus participation in a group, perhaps a cyber support group, can be very powerful healing tools. You HAVE a truly indomitable spirit. Give that spirit some help by using the above tools in a systematic, routine way. Sat nam.

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    FWIW, I agree with virtually everything said in the past few posts. If you need help quitting, there are pharmaceuticals that are helpful, including Chantix (prescription, it's a nicotine receptor agonist/blocker, supposed to have the best 'quit' rate as well as 'stay quit' rate), but it all starts with whether or not you are ready; some states have 'free' phone counseling (SD does); it helps immensely if you have decided to quit, have picked a quit date (lets you 'steel' yourself, set your mind to it), and have a plan. Too many people quit, then relapse with the next round of stress because of no plan. And I'd agree, quitting will do more for you than a lot of the other things mentioned.
    Exercise - don't know what is an option for you. My favorite for anyone even mildly challenged (ie, everyone over 40!) is an air cycle ie, airdyne or similar). It removes weight bearing from your joints; exercises upper and lower body; great cardiopulmonary. Put it in your living area so you can watch tv, listen to music, or if you're ingenious, go online to this forum; guarantee you'd enjoy your 20 minutes (yeah, right) of WBF time while peddling your way to health.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    My cent and a half.......
    I had polio as a lil critter....but managed to get into military service...I was always tail end charlie on the marching cross country business but what the heck.....
    After the leg injuries, and now the spine....I don't walk very far and it is quite painful at all times, and I found peddling the bicycle that goes no where really didn't do too much for me.....and lifting arms etc with little or no weight didn't seem to help......
    HOWEVER........If you can get into a pool, at least up to your neck without drowning.....practice a few slow tae Kwon Do or karate moves in the water....the water helps support your body and also provides resistance against the muscles to help firm them up. I normally would do stairs about twice a day and then be tired....
    Now, I do stairs in the morning, take dawg for a walk, rest an hour or so, half hour in the water......and I repeat this two or three times a day.......two years ago they had me fitted for a wheel chair, and after the heart attack no more stairs.....start off really slow...it will be uncomfortable at first, but keep at it. I have one kidney....and it was down to 15% or so and they were also fitting me for a dialysis machine.......my kidney function is over 30% last count....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
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    I love the eliptical machine at my gym. I listen to my Ipod and when I'm all up to speed and chuffing away, I feel fabulous. Not suggesting this to you Meer, just keeping up the roll. We have the great good fortune ( )of having a pool in the backyard so in the summer I do laps in the morning.
    One positive thing (and people told me this might be the case, including my urologist) about prostate cancer was that it changed my life in regard to the way I approach my physical (and to some extent) mental well being. I work out much harder and with good regularity, and I eat with much more consideration and care. I feel like I have overcome something and I don't care what kind of cancer (serious or less so) you're diagnosed with; it gets your attention.
    Sure, things have changed, some things I cared a great deal about are gone forever. But I'm here and in most ways healthier than I was when I was walking around ticking like a time bomb. Getting old is about losing things. And gaining perspective.

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    Not cancer but, When I was 25 (a longg time ago) I had back surgery.Lumbar Fusion,Doc said at the time it would keep me on my feet another 5 years and after that it would be a wheel chair for me. Well considering I just hit 55 in OCT and am still on my feet , more or less,I think sometimes the Docs are a bit off.ALL due respect to George of course.Keep plugging Meer.

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    Quitting smoking ++.

    You could look at some of the work done on CRON (Calory Restricted Optimum Nutrition) diet. Not with the view of living to be 140, or on the least number of calories, but for increasing the good nutrition in what you eat. Roy Walford's Beyond the 120-Year Diet is a good starting point, explaining the good and bad of a huge number of ingredients and supplements. (I think those on CR in an attempt to reach 140 are a bit crazy, but some of their work on nutrition appears to be valuable.)

    Pool exercise would be good. You might be able to find a local Tai Chi Chuan group, or a Tai Chi Chih group (very simple version of Tai Chi Chuan.)

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    Not talking around you David. Substitute "you" for "him" as appropriate.

    My guess is Tai Chi is out for him in his current state, but could be a possibility if David quit smoking and was able to regain even some semblance of normal pullmonary function and a bit more use of his legs.
    I'd think David could lift small weights, say between 3-12 pounds per arm to start, in his chair or do some upper body work even while sitting, somewhat as Tristan suggested. If he would agree to doing that (he's very stubborn) it would make sense to get him some small weights to begin that way to get him moving again. Swimming would be great therapy; I'm not sure exactly what facilities with access for him are available, but it would be worth looking into.
    The main thing that seems to be a common thread here is that David needs to take some action to effect his own cure; diet, quit smoking, start to think about getting some movement going even though it is painful to walk. Without dong more than wishing to be well, it's very hard to make progress, both mental and physical. There's no question that David is in a deteriorated physical state, but he still has some mobility and his mind is completely crisp. It's important to grasp what is and isn't possible, but it's equally important for David to exceed his own expectations.
    David; get your ass in gear! Quit the ciggies and start moving even as it hurts. Recall that exersize "hurts" everyone; it's how you know you're doing something. They don't call it a "playout".The more you move, the better for you and the more your muscles can support your frame.

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    Boy, ya gotta really love someone to give 'em hell like that, Lew.....
    Congrats, Meer. A lot of us don't have that going in our favor. BTW, he's entirely correct. And it all starts with taking that first step... or that first crawl, since you have to crawl before ya walk, walk before ya run... well, you get the picture, don't ya? Unfortunately, we're just the cheering section. The rest falls on you!

    I think sometimes the Docs are a bit off

    I agree, Geeman. Oftentimes it's a bit of a guess, sort of an 'actuarial table' of most likely scenarios. Ultimately, we're each a study of one; we decide what we're going to do, or not. Daunting and liberating at the same time, eh? Empowerment.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    that is really interesting, Norman; any theories advanced as to what in tobacco/why this effect? It seems to me that would open up a new area of research, with very promising results! (However, I'd hope they could purify/isolate that one plus substances, yes?)
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    and btw..... I realize quitting for Meer may be extremely difficult at this time. It has to be an individuals' choice; just realize there is help if ya decide, but also, it's perhaps one of the most difficult things you'll ever choose to do.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    "Quitting smoking is the easiest thing to do in the world. I've done it thousands of times."
    Mark Twain

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    Some people have had success with this form of treatment, the man is a long-term survivor himself. I make no personal reccommendation though
    http://www.gawler.org/html/s02_artic..._id=63&dsb=201

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    I'd say it was an example of an unfree market, but it's true that no one seems very interested in doing altruistic research these days -- even the government is primarily doing "focused research", that is, development.

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