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Thread: Chine runners...what to expect.

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Chine runners...what to expect.

    I have been contemplating the use of chine runners on my next project. I would like to build a 12-14ft sail/row camp cruiser, stitch-and-glue.

    In the interest of shallow draft, beaching ability, and the improved interior space due to the lack of a daggerboard/centerboard trunk, I looked into keels. Then I stumbled upon chine runners:

    http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...2&postcount=16

    http://physics.bgsu.edu/~layden/FunS...nnerGlueUp.jpg

    Matt Layden seems to have used them extensively in many of his "micro cruisers". He has used them successfully in several races and voyages around Florida and the east coast.

    Has anyone else employed this design? How does the windward performance compare to a more conventional design (dagger/centerboard or keels)? Keep in mind that I am not looking to set speed or performance records. I am only looking to maximize my interior space and keep a shallow draft. I should also admit that I am attracted to the "less popular" way of doing things for some reason .

    Jef

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    Default You might ask Matt

    You could ask for opinions at the Yahoo microcruising group, or ask at the watertribe site. Matt might respond to questions there.

    Dan

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    Default

    Can't imagine that they'd be very effective. They seem to be a shallower form of bilge keels, and those aren't known for their sailing ability even though they are much larger than chine runners.

    It all depends on your tolerance for "less effective" being linked to "less popular". Leeboards are much more effective and proven over time, yet take up no interior space.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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    Thanks for the input guys. I'll look into those other sites. And leeboards are at the top of my list unless someone can convince me otherwise. Regards,

    Jef

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    Default

    Jacques Mertens has designed plenty of row/sailers and all the simplest designs have a daggerboard. The daggerboard trunks are usually built into a seat assembly so they don't take up excessive room. The only downside is you have to put something over the slot to keep your bum dry when rowing.
    Here's a sample of a recent design.
    http://www.boatplans-online.com/prod....php?prod=OT16

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    Default

    Well, he may be planning on having removable thwarts and sleeping on the floorboards, so either a dagger or centerboard case would be in the way.

    Personally I've always loved covered centerboard cases -- MUCH less fiddling around, you can sail right up on the beach, no leaking or splashing, etc.

    Leeboards leave the center open, but should be raised and lowered depending on the tack, and can snag sheets and lines unless built carefully. Also be sure to beef up the top strake and gunwale -- the last time I was out in a boat retrofitted with leeboards (below) on a very windy day we cracked the mounting block and nearly lost the board...

    ...of course we were towing my boat back after I broke mast #2, so I'm not complaining, mind you.

    Last edited by Thorne; 11-21-2006 at 10:30 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default

    That's exactly it. Sleeping on the floorboards would be uncomfortable with a daggerboard or centerboard case. Leeboards still seem like the most logical solution, but I would like to fully examine other options. Chine runners, bilge keels, possibly an off-center dagger/centerboard (I guess it wouldn't be a "center" board then!)...these are still on the list, but the leeboard option seems to have the least compromise.

    jef

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Not intending to bump this thread, but I just came across it, and FWIW the Bolger Windsprint has an off-center "plug-in" daggerboard that is only minimally invasive into the interiors of the boat.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    A couple of years ago I read a report on a talk Matt Layden gave on chime runners, I believe it was at one of the Sail Oklahoma events. I would be worth digging it up.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    I think the basic needs is a deep belly where the runners are immersed, and a bigger than usual rudder. I believe Matts own experience came up with a formula that worked......at least to his satifaction. Many small boats do not have the displacement required to get the chine runner immersed enough to be efficient.
    I shifted the Leeboard on my Michalak boat into an "off-centre" daggerboard, purely cos i dont like the looks, not been an issue and the bench can still be slept on with the board down, or removed.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Bolger Gypsy.
    Dagger board shifted off center, frame moved forward to mast partner.
    Lots more room and seems to perform same on either tack.
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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    The vids I've seen promoting chine runners show a lot more leeway than I'd tolerate.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    I was going to suggest an off-centre, centreboard. I personally have pondered what a small runner of wood sticking out from the sides of a chine (parallel to the surface of the water) would do for a Bolger style box boat. I know with my GP they talk about her Chine digging in and her running off "on rails" and it got me thinking if you could keep the water from slipping under the boat, it might offer some lateral resistance when heeled

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    I spent a lot of time looking and thinking about about chine runners and Matt's designs. I think they work just fine if the boat is properly designed.... First you have to understand that Matt intendeds the whole hull to be a 'lifting surface'. also the rudder on Matts boats are large and performs significant part of the lateral plane...note the sail plan is well aft. The hull as a lifting body must be relatively narrow, which his designs are.....
    I suggest you either build the Paradox ( plans easily available) or contact Matt regarding your ideas. As far as I know he does not sell either the plans orthe idea, but he will talk to reasonable queries.....good luck...

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by jefleppard View Post
    That's exactly it. Sleeping on the floorboards would be uncomfortable with a daggerboard or centerboard case. Leeboards still seem like the most logical solution, but I would like to fully examine other options. Chine runners, bilge keels, possibly an off-center dagger/centerboard (I guess it wouldn't be a "center" board then!)...these are still on the list, but the leeboard option seems to have the least compromise.

    jef
    I've been using "offcenterboards" in my designs for some time now, SCAMP being one of the better known designs which feature this. There are some things to watch out for in design terms, the waterflow in the area of the 'board should be similar on each tack, and it pays to make the 'board somewhat larger than would be the case with a centerboard.
    I did that on SCAMP to allow a space wide enough to lie down in, right down the middle of the boat on a raised floor which doubles as a footwell.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Cummings View Post
    A couple of years ago I read a report on a talk Matt Layden gave on chime runners, I believe it was at one of the Sail Oklahoma events. I would be worth digging it up.

    Jim
    I was there at that one, had a short talk to Matt, would love to meet up with him without 100 odd people around all wanting to talk to either or both of us. Good guy, has some interesting ideas.
    In fact, Grahame Byrnes, Jim Michalac, Matt Leyden and I were looking for a chance to spend some time swapping ideas but it didnt happen.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    In fact, Grahame Byrnes, Jim Michalac, Matt Leyden and I were looking for a chance to spend some time swapping ideas but it didnt happen.

    John Welsford
    Not that i have ever used it, but is that not a perfect reason to use the technology of something like a skype conference call ? It would be an interesting collaboration, given a set of design parameters to deal with.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    I have been sailing my paradox over a pretty big chunk of the west coast of oz in a good range of conditions. The paradox goes to windward very nicely in smooth water, but does a less impressive job in rough conditions. At about 20knots wind she is reduced to around 50% sail area and no longer makes effective windward progress. I think the main issue is lack of leading edge on her lug sail, although the waves tend to knock her about too, so windward progress is not helped. On the other hand, in extreme conditions surfing downwind she never feels in any danger of broaching. There are no underwater projections for her to trip over except for the big rudder which is right aft helping her to hold her course. My boat has repeatedly reached 8 knots and sustained that until the wave passes... pretty fast for a slightly less than 14' boat. The paradox is certainly not optimised for windward performance, but she does well enough that she's carried me about a thousand miles of coastline to windward, often for many days at a time.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I was there at that one, had a short talk to Matt, would love to meet up with him without 100 odd people around all wanting to talk to either or both of us. Good guy, has some interesting ideas.
    In fact, Grahame Byrnes, Jim Michalac, Matt Leyden and I were looking for a chance to spend some time swapping ideas but it didnt happen.

    John Welsford
    Yeah. I want the boat you guys design.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Not that i have ever used it, but is that not a perfect reason to use the technology of something like a skype conference call ? It would be an interesting collaboration, given a set of design parameters to deal with.
    SKYPE would work for sure, but I'm not sure what that would achieve, given that within our areas of experience we're all three of us capable of producing a boat to suit a given brief. I was thinking of a quiet hour over a coffee ( tea for me please) to swap ideas and methodology, horror stories about clients and the occasional victory.
    I've collaborated on big design projects with others on occasions, and its never really easy, there is so much negotiation that it really slows the progress.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    One year when Graham and I took Southern Skimmer to Cedar Key for the annual messabout, we had an eclectic bunch to confab with. Meade and Jan Gougeon, Matt Leydon as well as Sven Yrvind. Great time although I can't remember a single outstanding thing that was discussed. While I was never a fan of chine runners as a foil for resisting leeway, it was surprising to watch Paradox tacking upwind toward me in really thin water at Chokokloskee, in the Everglades Challenge. It pointed better than expected and tacked easily without stalling. The fact that Matt is able to get surprising performance and cruising from some unlikely boats (the 8' Sand Flea, for instance) probably had a lot to do with it. For the simplest boat and rig for sailing fun, Paradox and its sisters are hard to beat.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    I was going to suggest an off-centre, centreboard. I personally have pondered what a small runner of wood sticking out from the sides of a chine (parallel to the surface of the water) would do for a Bolger style box boat. I know with my GP they talk about her Chine digging in and her running off "on rails" and it got me thinking if you could keep the water from slipping under the boat, it might offer some lateral resistance when heeled
    I had some thoughts, but after looking up Paradox, your idea has been tried, it works and I don't have anything to add. The following links are for those of us not already familiar with Paradox.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    One year when Graham and I took Southern Skimmer to Cedar Key for the annual messabout, we had an eclectic bunch to confab with. Meade and Jan Gougeon, Matt Leydon as well as Sven Yrvind. Great time although I can't remember a single outstanding thing that was discussed. While I was never a fan of chine runners as a foil for resisting leeway, it was surprising to watch Paradox tacking upwind toward me in really thin water at Chokokloskee, in the Everglades Challenge. It pointed better than expected and tacked easily without stalling. The fact that Matt is able to get surprising performance and cruising from some unlikely boats (the 8' Sand Flea, for instance) probably had a lot to do with it. For the simplest boat and rig for sailing fun, Paradox and its sisters are hard to beat.
    Tom, this link about horizontal runners refers to you: http://www.piano-tuning.co.uk/microc...unner-concept/
    Some of Jim Michalak's thoughts: http://www.jimsboats.com/1nov14.htm#Chine%20Runners
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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Dave,

    The statement that Matt is soft spoken and not interested in self promotion is certainly correct but I think he does not give his knowledge enough credit. I think Matt is technically very competent. He as sailed to the Bahamas and back with this rig if my memory still works. I think his easily worked lug rig also makes Paradox work well enough to get the boat and pilot through some adverse conditions, if not very fast. It does not appear easy to get into trouble with this boat and rig.

    Most of my small boat sailing has been done in hard chine boats and sailing along on the chine happens quite a bit in the very shallow water behind the Core Sound Banks. Carolina Sharpies and Sprits'ls have slab sides and flat rockered bottoms. I and many others have sailed along cutting a crease with the hard chine in the soft bottom a few inches below the surface. Make no mistake, its not either fast or efficient but you can usually get there.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Didn't the paradox have some unusual optional board and rudder positions? I seem to recall one that had a very small retractable board all the way up in the bow?

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Didn't the paradox have some unusual optional board and rudder positions? I seem to recall one that had a very small retractable board all the way up in the bow?
    I don't think that was the Paradox... but some of Matts paradox-like designs have made it as far as an initial sketch (titled 'ultimate cruiser') and at least one of those has the forward board you describe. Interesting idea though it begins to lose one of the advantages of chine runners in their extreme simplicity with no moving parts.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Before he designed and built 'Paradox', Matt built 'Little Cruiser'. Little Cruiser is owned by Dave and Mindy Buldoc, who have made a number of cruises to the Bahamas. Little Cruiser, a little larger than Paradox, has a small center-board forward and a large rudder aft, and a junk rig. The story is that Matt did not feel there was any clear advantage with that configuration and returned with Paradox to using the chine runners which he had tried on earlier boats.
    There are a bunch of videos on YouTube of the Paradox 'Scout' by Sean Mulligan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkaW-fu022w
    Post 18 by 'small boats rock' describes a problem which to some extent is common to most cruising boats.....diminishing driving force because of reefing, when you actually need more driving force to keep moving in a larger sea. Most boats trying to work to windward in a large sea will have to bear off to 60 or more degrees to have enough speed to get over the sea.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    I don't think that was the Paradox... but some of Matts paradox-like designs have made it as far as an initial sketch (titled 'ultimate cruiser') and at least one of those has the forward board you describe. Interesting idea though it begins to lose one of the advantages of chine runners in their extreme simplicity with no moving parts.
    You are right, I went searching. It is Bolger's "Dovekie"

    dovkie.gif

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    I hear conflicting reports about chine runners -- some claims of unusual performance and some claims that they are not much worthwhile. The type of hull they go on is probably important, as someone above mentioned. For example, people say that the Duck Punts "do well" (never any real data, though, as from a GPS track with true wind direction!) to windward without boards because their heeled skinny hulls bite well enough. Then water depth -- is there a hydrodynamic effect that hulls get in skinny water that they do not get in deeper water, which affects leeway? Then, I have been told that boats like Hobie catamarans (no boards) go windward because their rudders are highly loaded (swept back rig too?) -- though a hull's speed would effect leeway resistance too, wouldn't it, as any leeway-device you have gets more highly loaded.

    A final factor is the human one. Matt Layden's Watertribe nickname is "Wizard" and that was given for a reason. The guy has extensive on-water experience in tiny boats. In one Everglades Challenge his time-to-finish was extraordinary for the short boat he was in (I believe it may have been his 9-foot Elusion with chine runners, but it may have been another boat). He admitted to some luck (maybe, but he is very humble) but also said something about playing the tides and currents well. If the rest of us do not have such wizardry, expect less from chine runners, perhaps, and put great though into the loaded rudder if windward work is critical?

    Another final factor -- WHY can you not have both chine runners and a leeboard or (in this case) off-center daggerboard/centerboard? Can a person design for universal shallow/deep windward work? -- WT

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    SKYPE would work for sure, but I'm not sure what that would achieve, given that within our areas of experience we're all three of us capable of producing a boat to suit a given brief. I was thinking of a quiet hour over a coffee ( tea for me please) to swap ideas and methodology, horror stories about clients and the occasional victory.
    I've collaborated on big design projects with others on occasions, and its never really easy, there is so much negotiation that it really slows the progress.

    John Welsford
    Still think that would be an interesting exercise. You could do a joint design and name it the Platypus.

    (Just kidding)

    It's very difficult to do collaborative design work at a very high level as the amount of give-and-take required is pretty big and folks really need to let pre-conceptions drop.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    I hear conflicting reports about chine runners -- some claims of unusual performance and some claims that they are not much worthwhile. The type of hull they go on is probably important, as someone above mentioned. For example, people say that the Duck Punts "do well" (never any real data, though, as from a GPS track with true wind direction!) to windward without boards because their heeled skinny hulls bite well enough. Then water depth -- is there a hydrodynamic effect that hulls get in skinny water that they do not get in deeper water, which affects leeway? Then, I have been told that boats like Hobie catamarans (no boards) go windward because their rudders are highly loaded (swept back rig too?) -- though a hull's speed would effect leeway resistance too, wouldn't it, as any leeway-device you have gets more highly loaded.

    A final factor is the human one. Matt Layden's Watertribe nickname is "Wizard" and that was given for a reason. The guy has extensive on-water experience in tiny boats. In one Everglades Challenge his time-to-finish was extraordinary for the short boat he was in (I believe it may have been his 9-foot Elusion with chine runners, but it may have been another boat). He admitted to some luck (maybe, but he is very humble) but also said something about playing the tides and currents well. If the rest of us do not have such wizardry, expect less from chine runners, perhaps, and put great though into the loaded rudder if windward work is critical?

    Another final factor -- WHY can you not have both chine runners and a leeboard or (in this case) off-center daggerboard/centerboard? Can a person design for universal shallow/deep windward work? -- WT
    Good points, and I too was wondering whether the water depth accentuated the effect of chine runners.

    Your reference to Hobies got me thinking. The main problem with shallow draft hulls as leeway reducers must be the induced drag of the low-aspect foil that a hull presents. Induced drag drops by the square as hull speed increases, rather than increasing with speed as one of your sentences may perhaps imply if I'm getting it right.

    The Hobie 16 gets along pretty well with low aspect "foils" partly because they load up the rudders as you note but also because it's intrinsically quite quick even when compared to contemporary similar cats - it's actually almost 17ft long and has a very big rig - it's about the same size as the 20ft Tornado's rig was. That power probably allows it to benefit a lot from the squared reduction in induced drag created by the extra speed.

    A small mini cruiser will however suffer (rather than gain) from a squared increase in drag, and as you imply the loss would be disproportionately greater if the sailor was less skilled and the boat therefore moving slower still.

    Theoretically, having chine runners and a board should be problematic because a low aspect foil like chine runners should work best at a different angle of attack to a high aspect foil like a centreboard. In reality, as some racing windsurfers and Hobies demonstrate, there doesn't seem to be a noticeable issue.

    It would be interesting to see some more short course racing among the mini cruisers, to isolate the boat's performance from the factors you mention. I see there's some of it in San Francisco.
    Last edited by Chris249; 01-23-2018 at 06:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn Schick View Post
    Would a removable centerboard trunk be possible? Maybe a trunk you could slide in and bolt in place, then drop the centerboard in, then when you beach, remove the centerboard and then the trunk? A plug in the shape of the centerboard slot could be made to plug it up when it's beached in shallow water, to keep water from coming in through the slot. I think it would reduce the strength of the centerboard, and it might be a bit leak prone, but some extra reinforcement and a rubber seal might solve those.
    --- That's a lot of trouble to give yourself a little extra room in the cockpit. If you want a tough center/dagger-board case, you sort of want it to be permanent (sure, you can engineer anything, with dedication). But you can certainly use a plug in the case. If adaptability and shallow water sailing is so critical, then you might well -- with more simplicity -- simply carry a low-aspect-ratio, shallow-water board, which might be a leeboard (doubling as a thwart for the efficiency-conscious?) for long-term shallow-water beating. Leeboards do not need too much engineering, and the engineering needed is mostly on the outside of the hull, leaving the interior clear.

    Another idea, more complex but not horribly so: double daggar boards, fore and aft (there is precedent), leaving cockpit mostly clear. With two boards, each one might be a bit shorter than a single board, and when you raise them in shallow water, there is less of them sticking up in the air to interfere with boom or lines. For fun you could also plug in to the two cases a long, low-aspect "keel" (must be done on shore) for a little bit of grab in long term shallow water sailing. Want a deeper water day? Leave that plug-in keel on the trailer and go back to the two boards. (Question, since I thought of this on my own, that means that at least a hundred other people did before me -- does anybody know if such a thing has been tried?). -- Wade

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    Default Re: Chine runners...what to expect.

    You want a CB that is not in the way in the cabin??use a leeboard or two. You might consider off center boards or dagger boards against the inside of the topside......

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