epoxy brand preferences

[Wilson Fitt]

This has been thrashed out a dozen times, so my apologies to those that are thoroughly bored by the issue. I couldn't get the search function to do anything more than spin its cyber wheels.

I'm about to start on an new project: a 26' strip built and sheathed power boat designed by Michael Mason along traditional Nova Scotia Cape Islander lines. This is intended to be a commercial venture (note that I did not say profitable commercial venture) so out of respect to the no-self-promotion rule I will go no further.

However, I'm interested in opinions about and actual experience with the various brands of epoxy that are on the market in terms of ease of use, results in the face of a less-than-ideal application environment, quality of technical support, variety and appropriateness of fillers and additives, apparent toxicity and so forth.

Thanks.

[kc8pql]

I used about 75 gal. of System Three building my boat. It satisfied all of your requierments quite well. With that said, I think the best epoxy tends to be the one someone's used the most. They all seem to get good results.

[RodB]

I've used about 25 gallons of System III, with all three hardeners...and have had nary a problem. I have used it in 98+ degree temps to down in the 40's and am totally satisfied. System III meets your criteria. It does blush with the temp dropping overnight. I have mostly avoided this by starting any glassing job early in the day so that I get all necessary coats down within a few hours.

RB

[ 06-13-2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[Bill Bliss]

While I am not a brand loyalist as as rule, I have to admit that Gougeon Bros West System gave me nothing but perfect results every time. I never had any noticable amine blush (they do not claim there is none, though) and always had good complete cures. Can't complain -- don't know why I would switch, although I am sure there are a other good brands out there.

My only complaint is that they do not make it practical to mix very small quantities (less than a tablespoon) which are occasionally necessary for touch-up work. I hate wasting it, but I hate even more using consumer-grade products from Home Depot (they are without a doubt inferior, based on my experience). There are some manufacturers which market little containers with calibrated pumps for dispensing small amounts of precisely mixed resin & hardener.

Gougeon Bros has copious technical material available as well.

[Wayne Jeffers]

You'll probably find someone here to vouch for each of the different brands of marine epoxy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I've had good luck with MAS epoxy. It's a little on the thin side, so it wets out 'glass easier than some others. Simple 2:1 mix. With the slow hardener it is non-blushing.

Remember to post photos!

Wayne

[Don Kurylko]

I’ve used Epoxy products from Industrial Formulators of Canada for over 20 years and recommend them highly. This is a family run business and has been in existence since the 1960’s. Kind of the “Kirby Paint” of Epoxies, if you catch my drift.

They formulate Epoxies for a wide range of applications used in the construction, automotive, aircraft, electronics and marine industries. I have found them to be reliable, friendly, knowledgeable, and always helpful to the small boat builder. Prices are competitive and they are also distributors of System 3 Epoxies.

Check out their website. They have free literature and an extensive catalogue that you can download in PDF format. <http://www.indform.com/>

[Don Kurylko]

Oops! Forgot the address. http://www.indform.com/

[chill]

I have been very happy with Progressive Epoxy Polymers .Good products and good prices.
http://www.epoxyproducts.com

I also have used MAS which is very good.

[Ian McColgin]

I believe that all the larger propriatary brands formulated for marine use, especially if they have a choise of hardeners, are equally good for bonding. If you're an epoxy engineer you can do subtly better but were you an epoxy engineer, you'd not be asking here.

The biggest difference is using one product consistently. Mixing and applying are the heart of success, and they are much facilitated by product familiarity.

That said, I use WEST exclusivly for bonding as it was available in the 70's when I started, is readily available now, and I'm quite uesed to it.

I use Smith's CPES for sealing. Here I think there is a clear superiority of one brand over any would-be like products.

I've used a sort of industrial working stiff's sealer called Gluv-it for sealing difficult joints on old boats, heavey hull sealing and even setting glass. The stuff is a bit more flexable than any other epoxy I know and has great coverage. Unlike CPES, a penetrating sealer, Gluv-it sits on the surface. It has the body to fill strange joints, making it just the thing to fix a persistantly leaky covering board seam or coachroof after you've done what you could with reefing and caulking.

G'luck

[trev]

I'm building a fleet of sailing cats for charter work in South Lorea
at this point all my material is west system
I haven't found any thing more reliable so far here
stick with a good proven brand or material
good luck

[Jim Mathieson]

We like Progressive Epoxy Polymers as well.Especially their Premium blend ,which we are quite used to.no blush,average pot life ,and most important to me low exotherm reaction .I tested it against MAS slow to see which way I'd go and I chose to stay with P. E. P.....Good friendly service helps alot.
I also like their LTC 38 cold cure epoxy.It's great!

[Billy Bones]

I can rave about West System (Gougeon) Customer service which is just plain outstanding. The ONLY problem I've ever had with West Sys in 15 odd years (very odd, come to think of it) is with the pumps which really do need to be calibrated with the little graduated thingumy that they come with.

That said, for just plain low tech cloth setting/sheathing it is a waste of money when cheaper, more resilient formulae exist. My current project will be west bonded and raka sheathed.

Good luck.

[Rarus]

MAS for me. I saw a display at a store selling West, MAS, and another brand (Raka?). It was a real simple display - a folded bit of fibreglass dipped into a pre-mixed cup of each epoxy. Only MAS had thoroughly wetted out the cloth; I forget brand three's appearance, but West had bubbles throughout the cup and cloth that never left. MAS has a much lower viscosity apparently. The ability to reapply without sanding - I think a wipedown is required with water - is nice.

I posted a long time ago about why "WEST" is so prominent, and as Ian said - they were around a long time ago, and it's what most folks know. In that post, I listed all the available numerical values for West and MAS, and MAS was better in nearly if not all categories. Look under posts by Matt J or Emerson, number 626 (I'm at home sick today). I think it was reasonably thorough and based solely on the mfr's claimed test values.

-matt

[Dave Fleming]

I second Dan K's recommendation for Cold Cure aka Indust. Formulators products.

Have a Teak knee laminated up in the 1970's been exposed to wind, rain, heat,freezing temps, you name it constantly and, it is just as tight as when I made it.

NO, I din't dunk it in water for 2 weeks!

Only beef is the odor of the mix before kicking off. Reminds me of Lysol.

[wyndham]

Dave, my knee is surgical stainless steel and teflon. They told me teak would take too long to heal.
I have always used West because it was easy to buy. Every yard within reasonable distance arrieds it and the local hardare store started to carry it a few years ago.
I called around a few years ago to find MAS because so many people on the forum were recomending it. The closest dealer was forty minutes away and he was not particularly helpful when I called him to get directions.
My guess is West is so popular because they ahve saturated the market and have a huge share.
A few years ago someone on the forum did a side by side comparison and MAS seemed like the way to go.

[Bob Smalser]

Originally posted by Bill Bliss:

My only complaint is that they do not make it practical to mix very small quantities (less than a tablespoon) which are occasionally necessary for touch-up work. I hate wasting it, but I hate even more using consumer-grade products from Home Depot (they are without a doubt inferior, based on my experience). There are some manufacturers which market little containers with calibrated pumps for dispensing small amounts of precisely mixed resin & hardener.

.

Put one of those small fridge's in your shop and pop the excess from the 1-pump bowls in the freezer.

Lasts up to 3 days.

I've been using epoxy for over 30 years....mostly as a gunsmith.

I use Marine Tex, Brownell's Acraglass and West. Mostly because I am thoroughly familiar with them, they have a track record of perfect results for me and I only use a gallon or so a year.

[BillyBudd]

I used West for a canoe a few years back and was quite pleased. When it came time to build a larger boat, though, the cost of West threatened the project's tight budget. I bought a test kit from Raka Epoxy, liked it and have used it to my full satisfaction. I've used their low, fast, and cold weather hardeners. The difference between Raka and West, other than cost, might be viscosity but I cannot recall now. Raka has a website, www.raka.com comes to mind, and the owner, Larry, is always available by phone or on the internet with helpful advice.

[reddog]

Wilson;
I'll throw in a vote for Industrial Formulators Cold Cure.I have also had good luck with System Three.I believe Covey Island was using East System last time I checked.
I was speaking with Trond the other day and your boat venture sounds interesting.It will be good to see the shop back in use.Wish you luck with this venture.I'm sure Michael has an able and pleasing design.

Earl

[ 06-14-2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: reddog ]

[High C]

Raka. I can't imagine how anything else could be easier or better. And it's cheaper than the big brands. Raka.com

[imported_GregW]

I'll have to give my vote to Industrial Formulators.
Good range of products. Cold Cure as the name sugguest will cure in pretty cold temperates. Their G2 epoxy is very useful, you can vary the resin/harder ratio from 2:1 to 1:1 depending on the amount of flex one requires. 2:1 no flex, 1:1 if you're laminating wood for a bow ( as in “bow and arrow”).

[plyboat]

I saw your post on the Woodenboat forum. I have used WEST, System Three, and now I use MAS. They all work fine but I do like the low viscosity resin and the slow no-blush hardener. Jamestown's 6 gal kit works out to about $68.50 per gallon (there is actually 5.3 gallon in a 6 gallon kit). Mas epoxy works out to $67 a gallon for a 6 gallon kit. You can get MAS for $56.50 a gallon (6 gallon kit) at http://www.boatbuilder.org/epoxy.htm about 20% less than at Jamestown. You can also contact me at the number below eves and weekends if you run into trouble or need some help.
---Joel---

[Wayne Jeffers]

For good but inexpensive epoxy, I can recommend the 1:1 Laminating Epoxy from Fiberglass Coatings, Inc. www.fgci.com It costs less than $36 per gallon in the 2-gallon kit.

I got a little amine blush on the later coats, but otherwise it worked flawlessly.

They advertise in WB magazine.

Wayne

[BrianY]

This question gets asked a lot (I've asked it myself) and the answers are always pretty much the same - everyone has a favorite among the ususal five or six suspects (West, System Three, MAS, Raka, Industrial Formulators, East), but everyone also says that all of them work fine. One could reasonbly conclude that all of the major name brands work well and it really comes down to price and personal preference as to which is the "best". Given this, perhaps a more useful way of approaching the issue is to ask if there is any brand of epoxy that folks have tried and will never use again? In other words, what's the WORST brand of epoxy for boatbuilding?

[High C]

Originally posted by BrianY:
...what's the WORST brand of epoxy for boatbuilding?

Right here, takes forever to squeeze the stuff out of all those little tubes.

[Wilson Fitt]

Thanks very much for the usual good advice.

[Don S]

Saw this thread, and thought I would revive it with the question: where in Halifax area can/should get epoxy products, and does anyone carry the marinepoxy line, or something comparable, especially 2:1 mixing ratio. I'm getting ready to build a small boat and need to get supplies. Plywood is tough; maybe Eastcoast Specialty for Okoume PW, but not much else. Silicon bronze fasteners; guy at Home Hardware suggested Transworld in Dartmouth, but I haven't checked yet.

[Tom Painter]

I've used Marinepoxy on just one boat but about 20 guitars and found it to be totally satisfactory in every way for general wood bonding...I think I prefer it over West 105/205&6 and I've used LOTS(drums!) of West.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/supplies...poxy/index.htm

Unless you need an epoxy resin system with post-cure properties.....why spend more?....we're just stickin' wood together, not building a carbon fiber shuttle!

[MiddleAgesMan]

You'll probably find someone here to vouch for each of the different brands of marine epoxy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I've had good luck with MAS epoxy. It's a little on the thin side, so it wets out 'glass easier than some others. Simple 2:1 mix. With the slow hardener it is non-blushing.

Remember to post photos!

Wayne

I built my Simmons with MAS and finished my Goat Island Skiff with it as well. According to the labels and literature the slow and medium hardeners are both non-blushing. Since I last used it I've seen they've added a fast hardener that is also non-blushing.

I used both slow and medium and never had any blush so I tend to believe their new fast hardener will live up to their claims. If you think blushing isn't a real big deal then try to build something where you're constantly dealing with it, or, ignore the blush and watch as your subsequent coats delaminate.

MAS offers a thin resin (for 'glassing) as well as a thicker one (for joining and laminating wood in layers). Your dealer may not carry both but it is available. Again, I used both and liked them all the way.

[Mad Scientist]

Saw this thread, and thought I would revive it with the question: where in Halifax area can/should get epoxy products, and does anyone carry the marinepoxy line, or something comparable, especially 2:1 mixing ratio. I'm getting ready to build a small boat and need to get supplies. Plywood is tough; maybe Eastcoast Specialty for Okoume PW, but not much else. Silicon bronze fasteners; guy at Home Hardware suggested Transworld in Dartmouth, but I haven't checked yet.

Here's a link to Spartan Marine's catalogue download: http://spartanmarine.ca/Spartan_Web_optimized.pdf
WEST System, East System, System Three, plus just about anything else you could want. No SiBr screws or marine plywood, though.
This is the company formerly known as IMP Marine, not the Maine marine hardware manufacturer.

Binnacle Boating Supplies carries WEST, Cold Cure and Interlux Epiglass brands.

East Coast Specialty used to carry Okoume and Meranti marine plywoods, from Joubert, and I hope they still do!

Tom

[Don S]

Tom, thanks for the leads. I think things are beginning to come together . . . We hope. We're out on the Eastern Shore, and there are not a lot of suppliers around. Or anywhere else it seems, at least for specialty items.

Binnacle looks like a fun place to visit if one is out in that area. Assuming they have a for real bricks and mortar place.

Cheers.
Don

[SeaB]

Try Stright-MacKay, 209 Terra Cotta Dr., New Glasgow (902) 928-1900 for some of the best prices and service. The outside of the building says Waypoint. Get their catalog. Best wishes

[Don S]

SeaB, thanks very much. I am getting several referrals for sourcing epoxy, so I'm not feeling nearly so desperate. A ride up to New Glasgow might be nice.

[Mad Scientist]

Don,

Binnacle does have a bricks-and-mortar location, on Purcell's Cove Road. Small building, really stuffed full of merchandise.

SeaB,

Thanks for pointing out Stright-MacKay. Great variety of items, including Silicon Bronze screws.

Tom

[chuckt]

I'll ditto the progressive epoxy. Works great and is much less expensive than West. However, I keep a gallon of West on hand with the mini-pumps for small jobs. I will also agree that West technical help is great.

[chill]

I used progressive epoxy and also us composites.

[Don S]

I would probably use progressive epoxy if I could get it; I'm currently in Nova Scotia, and Progressive does not ship to Canada. I may be able to get MAS (I like the 2:1 ration), but the options here are limited. I was in a marine store the other day in Halifax. The clerk said they used to carry MAS, based on it "environment friendly" claim, but he said the shelf life was not so good. He said they only carry West system now, and he diminished any issues with amine blush.

Personally I need to resolve this for myself and, not inconsequentially, get ahold of some marine plywood (also not growing on trees around here ), and get on with my building. My shop is so small I can't set up the pieces for the strongback, until I get PW scarfed and cut out. The lams are cut and ready to glue up. You get the picture. Oh yeah, screws too (stainless or sil bronze?)

[mcdenny]

+1 for Raka. 127 resin / 350 non-blush hardener. 60 to 80 degrees F. West has far and away best tech support and works a little better for wetting out Fiberglasss cloth. Much more expensive than Raka.

[pcford]

this thread is so old that Dave Fleming is one of the recent posters. rip.