A stupid newby material question

[WadeH]

I am having an extreme problem finding any local suppliers of marine grade plywood in Okoume or Meranti. Marine grade Fir is available but I do not like the looks of Fir. So for my stupid question is why do you have to use Marine Grade if the boat is completely covered with epoxy? I do not want to build a peice of junk and I want it to last. But I am having a hard time convincing myself to spend more in freight than the plywood costs. Am I overlooking something with the marine grade plywood. I was told that the 2 main reasons for using it is that there are no voids in the plys and that the glue is waterproof. I have even read that all the plys are supposed to be the same thickness, other that these are there any other reasons. If the plywood is completely covered with epoxy how would the water ever get to the plys to cause problems. I have to be overlooking something but I can not figure out what. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Jay Greer]

If you are buying US made fir plywood you will find that it is measured in English increments. Okoume and Meranti are most often supplied in metric thicknesses. Of the three, Meranti will have more inner layers than fir or Okoume which makes it a bit stronger and also a bit heavier than fir plywood of the same approx. thickness since it contains more glue. In the past, I have built several boats of fir plywood, one was a 50' Rudy Choy catamaran and had no problems with strength. Okoume and Meranti are reported to have better inner plys than that of fir. I have not used either, prefering to work now with real tree wood.
JG

[reeljob]

Not sure where you'd be getting it shipped from, but I ordered about 20 sheets from Boulter in MD- I'm in SW VA, the shipping was really not bad at all. Surprisingly quick, too. If you look at a sheet of AC exterior stuff you can get at Lowes and compare it to a nice sheet of BS1088, it is a world of difference. I'd look into those shipping costs more, it shouldn;t cost more than one sheet.

[Clinton B Chase]

Water can get through epoxy due to dings, gouges, and other kinds of minor damage...problem is the water cannot get out and that is worst. I don't recommend you encapsulate the boat in epoxy if you are using plywood...rather get good marine grade plywood...okoume, meranti, sapele and seal/paint it well and take good care of it. I will seal the plywood planks in epoxy if the system I chose calls for it...like System 3...they have you seal w/ epoxy prior...but I'd be sure to keep the paint on it so water won't get through. John Brooks, a boatbuilder in Brooklin (www.brooksboats.com), also advises against doing an all out encapsulation in epoxy, unless it is a cold molded boat.

Cheers,
Clint

[willmarsh3]

From Georgia - you might want to drive up to Hardwood Center in Scottsboro, AL - last time I went there they had some marine grade plywood. They also have the mahogany and teak and ash you'll likely want down the road. Also I've ordered from Harbor in Sudlerville, MD and from Houston, TX with good results.
I've used both fir and ocoume plywood. Fir will be a continual checking problem as a finished surface unless you at least coat it with fiberglass. Ocoume is nice stuff and is fine with a coat of epoxy followed by finish of your choice. The layers of the ocoume are all the same thickness.
BTW which boat are you building? Do you have pictures?

[WadeH]

I am starting small. I plan on building a pyrogue first. About 16' with a 36" beam. Should be big enough for 2 of us to fish in a small lake. Thought it would be best to build something easy first. Atleast everyone has told me they were easy to build. I think would like to build the Cosine Wherry next or something like that. I have done lots of woodwork in the past but have never tackled anything with epoxy before. Just want to get something under my belt so to speak.

Willmarsh you mentioned you bought some plywood from Harbor. Someone told me that you could order plywood from a place called harborsales.net is this the same Harbor you are talking about?

[Bruce Hooke]

There are a few good reasons to go with marine grade plywood:

1. One problem with interior voids, which are common with other types of plywood, is that moisture can condense in these areas, even if the plywood is sealed in epoxy (take a pocket of air and cool it down and it can hold less moisture so you get condensation). Marine grade plywood should not have voids in the inner plys. Another problem with voids is that they can cause the plywood to not bend in a fair curve, which is a problem if you are building a boat. Yet another problem I've seen with voids in thin plywood is that even with some epoxy and paint on the plywood you can still have problems with water leaking right through the plywood. Using glass cloth on at least the outside would probably eliminate this problem, but that means more weight, time and money spent applying the cloth.

2. The inner plys of marine grade plywood are usually of the same wood as the outer plys, which is not true of some other types of plywood. This is especially a concern if you are choosing a plywood based on the rot resistance of the wood and the inner plys turn out to be something that is not rot resistant.

3. Overall, the quality of hardwood marine grade plywood is simply higher, which makes it easier to work with. This is most a factor when you are building something like a glued lapstrake boat where you have to do a lot of cutting and shaping of the plywood. It is less of a factor with skiffs and similar boats where you basically just cut out big sections of plywood and fit them in place.

4. Note that I have not said anything about waterproof glue. Almost all plywood is made with waterproof glue these days.

5. Some furniture grade hardwood plywood, which might look tempting, is made with very thin outer veneers. This is both not so good from a strength perspective and risky if you want to use a bright finish because it is so easy to sand through this outer veneer.

In a way what it comes down to is this. Because of the problems with voids there are good reasons to go with marine grade plywood, but that could simply mean fir marine plywood. One big downside of fir is that it will check if it is not covered with fiberglass cloth. Epoxy alone won't do it. That said, plenty of good boats have been built with fir marine plywood and checking is not the end of the world, or even the end of a boat. However, if you are building something where you have to make a lot of small pieces out of plywood, bevel the edges on many of those pieces, and so on, the money spent on hardwood marine plywood will pay back in the long run in much lower aggrevation levels.

Regarding Clinton B. Chase's comment, let's just say that there is lots of controversy on this issue and plenty of good boatbuilders on both sides of this argument. Plenty of good, long-lived boats have been built of epoxy coated plywood. On the other hand, especially if you use hardwood marine plywood there are some good arguments for skipping the epoxy coating.

[pipefitter]

Plywood is made up of layers of wood with glue in between the layers. Encapsulating is the wrong word when coating with epoxy but would be more true to say "priming" with epoxy.It helps to homogenize the surface and will make your painted surface more predictable.You don't have to do this but it is not much different than what is seperating the layers of wood anyway.It's basically just another glue line. Paint will lift from regular primer as the primer will oxydize and shrink at different rates than the topcoat. Paint will last quite a bit longer over epoxy than it will on regular primer. Primers applied to sufficient thicknesses to act as a surfacer will shrink for many months after it is applied. Yes,regular paint and primers work but if you look at a partially epoxied boat such as in tape seamed construction,the paint will be alot better off on the epoxied areas than the others surrounding it that don't have epoxy. If the boat is stored on a trailer or dry stored,the water intrusion under the epoxy is really not a concern.If you use a good marine bs1088 plywood,it is worth priming with epoxy if you want the paint to last longer.

[RodB]

Check with World Panel in Miami... I got 30 sheets of Okoume from them for $75 shipping to Dallas about 4 years ago. I'm sure shipping is more now but they were very competitive in pricing on the Okoume ply. Just let them know you are getting a bid from more than one dealer and that they were recommended as being very competitive in pricing.

I don't know where these guys get the idea you should not encapsulate ply boats. Come on tell this newbie how it really is..., epoxy boat building is here and ain't going anywere. Look at all the stitch and glue boats that are glassed and encapuslated in epoxy. Well built ply boats that are encapsulated with epoxy will be around way longer than us...its certainly the best way to build in a hot humid enviornment...if you want it to last...that is if you require ply in your design. Even strip/cold molded are sheathed and encapsulated.



RB

[Bruce Hooke]

I see people talking about getting 20 and 30 sheets of plywood. What you may not realize is that for someone who needs 2 or 3 sheets of plywood the shipping is likely to be not so much less than what you paid for 20 or 30 sheets. I suspect this is the problem Wade is running into...

[Pericles]

Here in the UK we have to build in BS1088 to ensure the RCD classification and insurance cover (Lloyds Approved). The work involved in building a boat and the epoxy/glass costs will not change whether Fir or Meranti ply is used, but the boat will not be worth nearly as much if built with inferior ply. Sam Devlin builds with BS1088.

If selling on at some future time is a consideration, you need the receipts to prove the boat is of merchantable quality. See here. http://www.marineply.com/welcome1.htm

Specification of BS1088
British Standard BS1088:1966 is currently under review and may ultimately be replaced by a "guarantee" policy. However as a manufacturing standard it will continue to be used for the foreseeable future.
The standard applies to plywood made from untreated tropical hardwood veneers having a suitable level of resistance to fungal attack, with a bond of WBP glue quality between the plies.
Bonding
Phenolic formaldehyde WBP to BS EN 314-2 class 3.Stag marine plywood can be obtained Lloyds Type Approved to British Standard BS6566 part 8 (now withdrawn and superceded by BS EN 315)
Species
Faces and cores are produced from Okoume/Gaboon (Aucoume klaineana), which is classed as non-durable.
Veneers may be rotary or sliced cut. The method of cutting is at the option of the manufacturer unless otherwise specified.
Face veneers shall present a solid surface, free from open defects. They shall be free from knots, other than pin knots, of which there shall be no more than 6 in any area 30 cm square, and not more than an average of 2 per 30 cm square.
Veneers showing compression failure shall be excluded. Occasional discoloration is permissible.
Tolerances
Thickness tolerance - 4mm +.02/-0.6, 6mm +.04/-0.65, 9mm +.06/-0.75, 12mm +.09/-0.82
15mm +.1/-0.9, 18mm +.12/-0.98, 25mm +1.8/-1.16.
Multiply Construction applies to boards thicker than 4.8mm - each face veneer shall be a minimum of 1.3mm and not thicker than 3.8mm with a core not exceeding 4.8mm.
Quality
Boards will be sanded on both sides evenly, face veneer thickness shall not be less than 1/8" of the total thickness of veneers. Moisture content at the time of leaving the factory shall be between 6 and 14%.
Conclusion
Stag marine products meet the highest specifications available, the above details are only a precise of the rigourous applied to meet BS1088 and subsequent BS EN standards.

It is a requirement of the British standards authority that standards be reviewed and updated on a regular basis for appropriateness in the current marketplace (B/541 Technical Committee). Changes in production and suitability in the standards criteria are typical areas for consideration.

However the responsibility for this review is in the hands of the Timber industry who have had little encouragement from the Marine Trade as to the benefits of the reviewing this 1966 standard.

Does the Marine Trade still require high quality plywood which has third party criteria and standards procedures for production?

Will the Marine Industry contribute towards the costs of a review to procedures?

Would Lloyds issue Type Approval to plywood produced to another standard of lesser integrity?

What are the options?

In Holland producers have opted for a "guaranteed" plywood for marine or construction use. This can give a 10 - 20 year guarantee which is insured and will have an additional cost (20%+) depending on the lengh of guarantee required.

This guarantees, in effect, against delamination and replacement but not consequential loss (this would cost considerably more If available).

It would indicate that the product is "guaranteeable" suggesting a well produced plywood but would not indicate its production criteria or comparability with other "guaranteed" panals.

This could lead to a wide range of plywood products being offered, from many countries with a multitude of different production methods with no standard for reference.

The "guarantees" could be placed with a host of Insurance companies without any real assurance of how that guarantee will perform in the event of a claim.

You pay your money, you take your choice. It is now the time for the marine industry voice to be heard.

Do you want BS 1088 or will you accept "guaranteed" marine grade plywood?

Please email your comments to the editor@marineply.com.

Editors comment -
The Marine Industry needs the assurance that plywood produced for boatbuilding is of the highest standard to meet the exacting requirements of this speciality market.

Whether "guaranteed" plywood will replace the accepted integrity that BS1088 offered is questionable and should be debated by the industry and its representative trade associations.

If it is decided that BS1088 should not be reviewed and updated then the marine trade will need to work closely with its suppliers to establish a new criteria for boatbuilding plywood without the discipline of a British Standard.
Overwhelming support for the British Standard to be retained - What Now !


Pericles

[Bruce Hooke]

Just use A/C exterior plywood.. Since Marine and Exterior Plywood use the same glue... Just watch for voids in laminations....

And how exactly do you watch for voids in the middle of a large sheet, and what do you do when you find them...

[Bruce Hooke]

Here in the UK we have to build in BS1088 to ensure the RCD classification and insurance cover (Lloyds Approved). The work involved in building a boat and the epoxy/glass costs will not change whether Fir or Meranti ply is used, but the boat will not be worth nearly as much if built with inferior ply. Sam Devlin builds with BS1088.

It is worth remembering that Wade is talking about building a 16' x 36" pirogue, so at least over here things like classification and insurance are unlikely to come into play, and resale value on a home built boat built by someone without a lot of boatbuilding experience is not likely to amount to that much anyway...

[mcdenny]

I'll offer the heretical view- Sounds like you are thinking of this as a 'practice' boat to learn about boat building and have something to paddle around a bit. If you just wanted an inexpensive 16 x 3 boat that will last a long time you would buy a plastic mass market canoe and save yourself 100-200 hours work.

You can no doubt get clear pine and 1/4" luan floor underlayment from your local lumber yard. (I personally would stay away from the big box stores for wood) I'd use that with two layers for the bottom. Tape the seams then fiberglass the outside with 6 oz cloth/epoxy. Paint the inside with epoxy then paint the whole boat 2-3 coats good enamel (epoxy can't stand sunlight).

If you find you like boatbuilding you will soon move on to a fancier design and will probably want to use 'marine' quality wood. If you don't you will still have a decent little boat that will last a long time hanging from the rafters in your garage.

[WadeH]

It is worth remembering that Wade is talking about building a 16' x 36" pirogue, so at least over here things like classification and insurance are unlikely to come into play, and resale value on a home built boat built by someone without a lot of boatbuilding experience is not likely to amount to that much anyway...

So true, so true. But maybe if I become famous it might be worth something. They all could look at it and say boy you can really tell how stupid he was back then. Thanks guys for all the help.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Here's an outfit in Vero Beach FL that sells plans and materials on-line.
http://plywood.e-boat.net/index.php

They also have builders forums to aid customers who get in over their heads.
Here's a couple of their designs I cut my teeth on.

http://209.190.4.227/gallery/index.php?cat=10905

[Bob Smalser]

I am starting small. I plan on building a pyrogue first. About 16' with a 36" beam.

In a radius of a day's drive from your home, there is excellent cedar, cypress, sassafras, yellow pine, walnut and hundreds of small sawmill operations selling cheap.

Why use plywood at all?

[willmarsh3]

Willmarsh you mentioned you bought some plywood from Harbor. Someone told me that you could order plywood from a place called harborsales.net is this the same Harbor you are talking about?

Yep. That is indeed http://www.harborsales.net. I hadn't been there in a while. They have quite a few new products.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

"Why use plywood at all?"

There are reasons for everything. In this case,he's building a paddleboat and he doesn't want to have a heart attack when he's paddling or portaging.
The name of the game is "you carry it and it carries you".

http://209.190.4.227/gallery/display...bum=333&pos=10
If the pirogue in the picture was made from dimensional lumber it would weigh 75 lb. instead of 45. And, I wouldn't be able to get it on/off my roof rack let alone carry it ¼mi. to the water.
The tree in the background is a white oak. It will be ready for the sawmill in another 100 years or so.

[Thorne]

Chuck -

He hasn't really described the planned transport system, so we don't know if he needs to cartop or portage. If those are primary requirements he may want to build an ultralight and bypass plywood also.


20 lb boat from - http://gaboats.com/boats/arrow14.html

I'm rowing a dory built of solid wood, no visits to the ER yet. I'm slower than those rowing longer boats built of lighter materials, but not much slower.

Considering the costs of good marine ply and epoxy, solid wood should be considered for all designs capable of using the material, just as marine ply should be considered when the design can use it as well as ultralight materials like Kevlar, Dacron cloth, plastic and aluminum.

[Mike Vogdes]

Jeez this place is something else... The guys looking to build a cheap ply boat and 20 posts later you not only have everything you wanted to know about plywood, we are now gonna talk him out of building a plywood boat.

[RodB]

I somewhat agree with Mcdenny above. If this is a first boat and a "practice" project ....AND....its seen as a boat whose lifespan is not all that important...then why not go cheap and just get the building experience...

On the other hand..in another somewhat related philosophical vein... personally I looked long and hard at building a first boat and did not dream up a "practice project" just to build a boat. I was determined to build something I would have use for for a long time and that was "customized" to be a really nice flyfishing boat. I ended up doing lots of homework before finally deciding on what to build and how to build it. Since my first boat was a stitch and glue project, it was easily within the abilities of an inexperienced boatbuilder (me) and the designer of my boat was available for really good support....and I was more or less walked through the project via the ability to get quality consulting help along the way.

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=51640

If there is a boat in your future that you are certain you will want to build and use...research the design and evaluate all the aspects of the building process...if you think you can do it, you can...especially with some good sources of consulting help as you go along.

I guess I just wouldn't want to build a "practice project" if the resulting boat was not going to be really useful to me in the future or would just be a throw away project....I would rather spend time, labor, and money on building a decent boat (no matter what size or type) and if the boat you build has no use to you over time, then why even bother building it...and if its worth building, then why not do it well?

RB

[Bob Smalser]

...he doesn't want to have a heart attack when he's paddling or portaging.

I spose all those pretty strip cedar kayaks are real back breakers compared to their cousins made from other materials, then.

If clear juniper can be had for $1.65/bf as stated below...

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=57897

...then juniper will work just as well as the more common (and more expensive) Western Red Cedar for lightweight, epoxy-and-fabric-sheathed strip construction. The two species are the same weight.

I'm not saying that's the way to do it for a first attempt, but it's definitely an alternative. Will one be heavier than a plywood boat? Probably...but not necessarily by very much. You could also do solid sides and a ply bottom for the advantages of both materials.

[WadeH]

To answer a couple of the questions. The reason for plywood being used is I thought it would be a little bit easier. Having never built a boat before I wanted to go the easy route to get a little bit of experence. Also I thought it would be a small enough project to give me some experence with working epoxy and fiberglass.

The place where it will be used the most is a small lake that we have and will be used for fishing and maybe a river trip or two. I wanted something that we could use and keep, not something that would be just cast aside when we were finished with it or when we finished the next one. Weight is not a major consideration here. We both have trucks and I even have an old boat trailer that someone left parked out behind the house that can be used.

Bob mentioned about finding some saw mills around and get some of the local lumber from our area which is a good idea. I do have some wood working skills but right now we lack the availablity of any good stationary tools. And again we go back to the lack of experence with boat building. Using local lumber brings up another question about drying the lumber. Would the lumber need to be dried before using?

A rowing dory or something like that will probaly be our next project after we get this one done. If we, my son-in-law and my self get this project finished then we will not get any grief about starting the second. I hope. This is something I have always been interested in but never got the chance to try. Besides I think it will help our confidence level to get a small project completed. Thanks for all the ideas and help everyone.

[WadeH]

Rod this is in no way a throw away project. It will be great to have a nice looking boat that we can put in the back of the truck and take off fishing. I thought the pirogue looked pretty good and not very many people aroung here even know what one is. I was thinking the project would give us a good looking boat and give us some experience to boot. Oh by the way that is a great looking boat you built. I visited your thread and it really looks good. Looks very professional, like you went to the store an bought it. Great job. Hopefully I will be able to build something nice like that one day also. Best of luck to you.

[Thorne]

Wade - You are dead right about the local wood needing to be cured before use, and that takes time. Bob S. can tell you much more about the process, and he also has some great web articles on wood selection, curing, use, etc.

If you know you want to build another boat later and are tempted by using solid wood (or want to avoid using all that epoxy again), you might consider picking up some wood now and letting it cure while you build your first boat out of ply.

That way you can increase your skills, tool collection, and boatbuilding knowledge while working up to your second boat...they *are* habit-forming, y'know...

;0 )

At this stage I'd probably build my first one in ply also -- unless I had had previous bad experiences with epoxy. Some people are naturally sensitive to it, others have problems as exposure increases -- you don't build up resistance to epoxy, it only gets worse over time. Nitrile gloves and good organic vapor filters in your respirator really help!

Be sure to price the epoxy as well as the marine ply for this first boat -- you may find that it costs more than a solid wood boat, which is just part of the reason for suggesting planks rather than ply.

[WadeH]

[quote=Thorne]Wade -
If you know you want to build another boat later and are tempted by using solid wood (or want to avoid using all that epoxy again), you might consider picking up some wood now and letting it cure while you build your first boat out of ply.

That is a very good idea. I will start checking with a few of the local sawmills. There is one right down the road from where I live. But I think all they do is pine. Even though I have a bunch of yellow long leaf pines planted I am not a big fan of them. But maybe he will know of a few others who might me cutting cypress. Now that would make a pretty boat. Thanks for the idea.

[Thorne]

Ask Bob and some others here before you buy any wood -- depending on the design you build, much of it should be specially cut to keep the grain orientation correct for planks. Then you need to stack it in a special way and let it cure for...you guessed it...an especially long time.

;0 )

There have been a number of threads on this very topic for your general part of the globe, so try the Search function here.

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulle...=cypress+plank

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulle...=cypress+plank

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulle...=cypress+plank

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulle...=cypress+plank

[Tom Robb]

I've only scanned these responses, but did anyone mention WB's Lumberyard Skiff? Not a bad skiff, decent traditional looks, real wood, that's rather less expensive than even semi-decent plywood, skills building involved, no toxic bug juice, easy to repair but not so easily damaged, and if cared for ought to last for years.
Just a thought.

[Chan]

Unless you only want the boat for a couple of years use marine ply. Cdx and cd plys from the lumber yards have gone downhill fast in the last few years. The glue is not the same in construction grade to marine grade. Mdo isn't a bad choice for a short lived hull, takes a wicked paint job.

[pipefitter]

The added cost of the good plywood can easily be justified by all the money you are gonna save being home building a boat instead of what you normally do for recreation on your time off.Not playing golf one of the days you spend building the boat will pay for it.One missed weekend hunting trip will more than pay for it and all the gas you save just staying put will pay the extra cost in no time.It's already paid for itself and you don't know it yet.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

MDO doesn't come in ¼" which is 100% of what a pirogue is made of.

[RodB]

Wade,

A Pirogue would be a fine choice and by nature of the design...its simple and would be great with flat ply panels. I think there are other similar craft that could be considered. You really should look at the following:

http://www.arrowheadboats.com/

See "Laker" and "Lutra Flyfisher". The plans for the Lutra Flyfisher are about $100 and the DVD that comes with each design is very easy to follow for a building process. David Nichols walks you through the entire process.... with his glued ply lapstrake designs... and you can get lots of good basic info on using epoxy either here or in one of the several good epoxy manuals available like System III's or the Gougeon Brothers Book on Boatbuilding. Also see:

http://www.arrowheadboats.com/dvd/

The weight of the finished Lutra Flyfisher is about 60 lbs I think. He also has a larger design and great instructions on building them. That Lutra Flyfisher is a great design and has great aesthetics with that type of construction...and the way its presented in the DVD, anyone could follow the instructions. I think the Lutra Laker is the largest craft he has plans for and its a sweet boat.

http://www.arrowheadboats.com/news/

http://www.arrowheadboats.com/articles/lutra_wings/iii/

You should look at the entire website from arrowheadboats...

It sounds like you have selected a design that will be very useful to you in the future...and also a good learning process.

I did not mean to down play the value of building a smaller boat as a first project, I just wanted you to consider that larger projects that are not too complicated in building can be a "first project" too.

If you have selected a design as you describe then it will be perfect for taped seam or stitch and glue ply...and you will definitely get the idea of using epoxy and fiberglass... Don't hesitate to ask questions here as many on this forum will be glad to chime in with an opinion. ONe thing I learned during the course of my project was that that results is in the details...all the details, and when you start to follow a procedure you don't realize what little details are not included because those who wrote the basic procedure down forget that the simplest details may not be all that intuitive to the novice. I had a very good outcome by being able to contact my boats designer all through the process with questions. I would constantly analyze and record any questions in my "question book" and then call the designer now and then to get answers. I just wrote the answers below the question (which I had left some room for in my book) and I also watched the minutes on my phone bill so that I could pay him a reasonable hourly rate for his time. Having a pro's consulting help was invaluable and enabled me to go for a boat I really wanted from the start...and a boat that was really over my head at the time.

Some pix of the 2nd to largest design... the Lutra Flyfisher...

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

RB

[Pericles]

boylesboats,

If and when I find voids in BS1088 Okoume throughout, marine ply I shall take it back to the supplier for replacement. At $40 per 8 x 4 + 17.5% Value Added Tax, I demand the very best.

Mind you, they are only 4 miles away.

Pericles

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The Lutra Flyfisherman folks are a rather adventurous lot. The picture above, with the hearty souls standing shows a boat that is loaded about as deeply as you dare go. Paddling regularly with so little freeboard is not generally recomended.
Because the boat is so deep in the water, standing is a bit easier. If the flycaster was by himself I think it would be considerably trickier.
It's a pretty boat but, it needs to be a couple of feet longer to safely carry those burly young men.
And about any first time builder can get thru' a simple 3-panel S&G pirogue and be on the water in short order. Not so for a dory with glued lapstrake sides.

[raymacke]

From the majority of the post it appears Marine grade plywood is the only ply to use in a boat building project. I guess I really screwed up. My 18' skiff built from exterior plywood is now six years old with over 22,000 miles on it. And even though it is as solid and looks as good as the day it came out of the shop I now fear it will fall apart any moment because of my inferior material choice.........

Maybe I should have used Okoume or Meranti. They are both very rot resistant aren't they? I know about the moisture causing rot in plywood voids. But you know I just tore down an exterior wall that used 1/2" ply that had been there for 30 years and didn't find any rot in the voids. Odd isn't it. What you say - the wall doesn't sit on the water 24/7. Good point - but neither does MANY if not most homebuilt boats.

Come on guys, the choice of materials can directly relate to the usage expections of the boat project. Unless you have money to burn there are always intelligent choices that can be made. What do you think is the safest made car in the world. Do you drive one? Do you buy the same one for your wife and each of you kids? No, you say. You drive a Toyota. How can you do this. These are inferior to the "best". Yea, I know, the best cost a lot and you had to made a compromise. I did too. I drive a Chevy.

So let me see if I have it right - Only the best and spare no expense when building a pyrogue that will spend 98% of it life hanging in the garage but inferior is OK for you and your family while everyday undertaking the most hazardous activity most Americans will ever encounter - driving a car. Is it just me are is there something wrong with this logic?

Life is a compromise - and boat building for most is no different.

Yea, I am in one of those moods today! Had to work around the house today instead of taking the boat out.

[pipefitter]

Using better materials just adds to the overall experience of part of a reason most wood butchers want to build a boat in the first place.I don't want to feel like I do when I rough frame or sheet in my roof. The reality of it is,you are going to pay the money somewhere.Either in the initial better material or the coatings and the sandpaper to bring it to something that looks like it.I'd rather bypass as much of the sanding/fairing work as possible. Sandpaper is expensive. I wouldn't hang build center ply on the side of my house and paint it as is.Either you pay now or you pay later but you will pay. Build center ply in it's thinner dimensions is crap.It doesn't lay flat,it's hard to chalk a line or lay a straight edge on and it doesn't even lean up against a wall nicely while waiting to be used.When it's all said and done,I bet most will have realized that they could have painlessly absorbed the extra cost of the better materials initially,as a drop in the bucket of all the other $ they will end up throwing at the project to complete it.Atleast with the better materials,you have the option to bring it to whatever finish level you desire being considered either as good or better.Even the scraps left over from good materials are treasures.In my opinion,half of the experience is in getting to use the nicer materials.If not,I could cure all my wood butcher itches building tract homes.

I agree the rot issue with voids should be minimal with a dry sailed and stored boat and that we'll spend much more time repairing dings and wounds from use and that in the event of such a condition,the remedy will be much the same. I'm just tired of using the iffy home center stuff in general or even picking through it.It was so much more "fun" using the better stuff. In comparison with familiarity of normal standard materials,the bs1088 meranti ended up feeling like the bargain.

[RodB]

C Chuck, the Lutra flyfisher is designed for two people, these two guys are not small for sure, and they are pushing the weight factor. If you want to build her for one person most of the time, David recommends changing the seating setup. I specifically asked about the stability of that boat and if a bit more beam would not be better. David assured me that the LF was very stable and also shows a short video on self rescuing with it on his website. He said the stability is such that you can stand and flyfish no problem.

The larger boat he sells plans for call the "Laker" is just as easy to build and as I said, his DVD's are extremely well done and walk you through the project. That "Laker" would be well worth building and probably a lot of fun. Sure a simple Pirogue would be very "simple to build"...perhaps you would be done so quick you would not get enough boatbuilding fun... and David Nichol's glued ply lap designs are really great looking, can be built for a reasonable cost, and push the performance factor of the materials used by the nature of his designs and building methodology. OF course many other designs fall into this category.

ON building materials...I agree with Pipefitter. If you are going to build a small canoe or Pirogue that is really just a playtoy that will see little use and allows you to get some experience, then I guess the quality of the materials doesn't really matter...BUT... if you want to push the materials used to the edge of performance and longevity... along with lighter weight and construction, then better materials need to be selected.

Perhaps its an easier decision when you are building a larger boat...where you have specific needs and want the boat to last...ie., you want all your work and money to result in a good boat for the long haul. You are always thinking of how elements of the boat will fail, and how you can head off such failure with the pursuit of excellence in materials, building methodology, and engineering approach.

I'm sure both Pipefitter and I both thought long and hard about each decision in our present boats and usually decided on not necessarily the cheapest way to go that would be OK... but the best way in engineering approach, materials, and procedures...thus ending up with a boat that we know will be here a long time and have very well thought out systems...and some real value over time.

Perhaps its a personal attitude, but if I decide to put my time and efforts and money into a project, I will pretty much spend the time to research the best design as a solution to my parameters of need, and then build her to be a well found craft that will be around a long time, even after I may have lost interest and perhaps sold her (hopefully for a decent price).

Maybe the old hunting rifle analogy here might be in order. Many guys buy factory rifles and hunt their whole lives not caring if the rifle they shoot is capable of more than 4-5 inches at 100 yards...because practically speaking, that will get the job done. . . while many others go to the trouble of getting a trigger job, perhaps bedding the action...and if still not satisfied...they rebarrel the gun to achieve 1 MOA accuracy and a higher degree of confidence in the gun they hunt with. And don't forget the serious hunters spend almost as much on their scope as on their rifle. This second group do get a lot of enjoyment out of using the tuned/semi-custom rifle and the more they do to it hopefull the better "tool" it becomes...and the more they enjoy it...

YOu could say that they waste a lot of money, but for them its the only way to fly...

RB

[WadeH]

I agree that you should use good materials. I also believe you can go overboard with it also. I remember years ago when I was in contruction and this guy had us put up cherry on all his walls in his home office and then had the painters paint the walls white. I think that was a waste.

Rod I love the looks of both the flyfisher and the laker. The laker or something like it is on my list. Maybe the next one.

I think I may have found some Merranti plywood. I just have to get some time to go look at it and get. Thanks for all the help guys.

[Varna]

Your Thread has many good suggestions already, but no mention of your local lumber yard for Okueme/Meranti. This may or may not work for you- I have ordered BS1088 okueme 3 times from 2 different local lumber yards. They all buy their stocked plywood from the same large regional wholesaler-this wholesaler happens to handle 1088 Joubert so they were able to obtain this material for me and I paid no extra freight. You may be able to find a similar situation, and if you have open accounts at the yards that helps your cause. Another possibility depending where you are is to ask another boatbuilder/yard if they buy Marine Ply and if you could add on to an order-offer a handling fee upfront.
Personally I would build what you are thinking of for a first boat with the best local 1/4" A/B X ply I could find, not woory about the voids/core ply material and sheath it in 6oz glass/epoxy, give it a nice paint job and wood trim and/or accent color and go boating. Then if you enjoy the whole building thing do it again, but you may want to build lapstrake, sheathed solid wood strip, Carvel/frames, etc etc for your next project. My point being - build a simple project first and get on the water without chasing the details of voids, etc too much. If it springs a leak so what-fill it go back out on the water-after all that's the point!