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Thread: Speaking of Living Aboard...

  1. #71
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    Tad,
    No mention of multihulls? Seems to me some of the type fit the requirements quite well -- and often will keep that crew better rested than they would be in a monohull.

  2. #72
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    Once again, Tad, thanks for a great post.

    t.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  3. #73
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    I certainly have a bias here -- I'm part owner of a 37-foot cruising cat. But I went that way after looking at all of these issues -- what do you need to have, what's nice to have, and what, after all, makes your time out on the water most satisfying?
    I drool over the boat porn posted on these threads, too - as good as some mulithulls look, none has the visual attraction of the classic wood monohulls. But the liveability of the cruising cats in particular is well above what you get on the typical monohull -- I think the proof is in the huge increase in production of these cats -- more and more experienced cruisers are switching to the them, and I don't see any evidence of folks switching from sailing catamarans back to monohulls. And it's not just the deck and cabin space, it's the more comfortable motion and, on many of these boats, having a well sheltered helm station. Will today's multihulls look as good in 50 years as the classics from 50 years back look now? I sort of doubt it, but who knows.

  4. #74
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    I sure like it.

    I've just finished my 8th season on Drake, my 40 LOD/46LOA ketch. From a ketch-sailor's perspective, I offer these points...

    1) I prefer a plank bowsprit, some thing strong and wide, made of oak, that you can walk out on, with a good safe cage on it, and hang an anchor from. (Whatever I ram gets destroyed!)

    2) I like the way the deckhouse roof projects. That'll protect the sidewalls, and where they meet the deck, from rot.

    3) There isn't much separation between main and mizzen here. On Drake, there is, and thus the mizzen tends not to get back-winded close-hauled. If you could leave everything alone, but shift the mainmast a foot farther ahead (and still stay it), I think you'd be better off (Hey! I can hear Tad howling and screaming, from Toronto!) It's instructive, in ketches, close-hauled, when the wind gets up, to take a reef in the main. As it is lowered it also "moves forward". This clears the flow of air to the mizzen, which pulls harder, and the speed doesn't change. http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...ad.php?t=12485

    4) Can you sit down, outside, and steer, yet still see? If not, some raised seat/platform may be an idea. No point in having to stand to see, and sometimes you want to be outside.

    5) I'd have the main backstays rigged as independent stays, not a single stay coming down to a Y-bridle. Then I'd end each stay with a Pelican-hook as sold by Holland Marine, big solid clamps made of 1/2" steel. This means you can set a mizzen staysail, or better yet a mizzen spinaker, much easier, because the leeward stay is unhooked and got completely out of the way. This really works. There is no spinaker set that is easier, there, in the middle of the boat.

    6) If the boat goes to Mexico, you'll want the deckhouse windows to open, so that there's a breeze in the shade.

    7) Make the bobstay chain -- that way you can see what's happening to it in the way of corrosion, and it's easy to fix.

    8) Don't forget the wood stove, an efficient one, that burns hot, burns anything, and keeps its chimney small and clean. Make the chimney easily replaceable, so that you can burn the odd piece of salty wood without worrying too much. And have a flat spot on top with a fiddle rail so that you can boil a kettle or heat a saucepan.

    But I really like the boat. For my own purposes it draws a foot too much, but in the PNW, I expect it'll do wonderfully. I'll crew on it anyday, gladly.

  5. #75
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    Tad...send private message with an e-mail address...I have electronic files, but they seem too large for the Woodenboat through-put....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
    "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

  6. #76
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    Dave,
    Thanks for your pertinent and thoughtful comments, I'm with you about 100%. I do like the look of a teak grating on top of the pole sprit, but laminated planks work too.

    Dave's comments bring up some questions about the rig, and as the mast positions and rig configuration will have a major impact on those living aboard, let's look at some rig ideas.

    The first is the gaff topsail ketch as originally envisioned. The fore triangle is fairly large and split with a staysail and outer jib so we can have the housing sprit as previously discussed. The main is of moderate size (actually the smallest of those to be presented tonight) and the mizzen is small. As Dave mentions interference (downwash) from the main onto the mizzen will rob that sail of drive and render it more of a balance sail on the wind.

    Tad


  7. #77
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    Note that the CE of the above rig is about 33-34% of waterline length, which (I hope) will provide about perfect balance with just the right amount of feel in the helm. These CE's are calculated using 100% of the fore triangle loaded to 1.7, the main loaded at 1, and the mizzen loaded at .5. This reflects the effectiveness of each sail. The foresail with it's wire headstay, the main behind the mast, and the mizzen downwind of both.

    Rig two is another gaff ketch, this one sans the topsail but with the main moved forward (as suggested by Dave) the bowsprit shortened, and the mizzen increased in height. CE is in about the right spot again.


  8. #78
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    Rig three is a gaff topsail schooner.

    The mast movement is starting to cause some problems in the interior. The foremast has mover into the forward double berth, not much, but it's definitely there. And the main mast is smack in the middle of the deckhouse, this is not impossible, but it's less than ideal. The big stick ruins the engine room and will make the deckhouse tighter, you'll always be peering around the mast to talk to people or see something. Ideally the arrangement should change to match the rig if a schooner is really required.



  9. #79
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    Rig 4 is a gaff topsail cutter.

    Note all these are gaff rigs, that's because one of the primary owner requirements is that the boat be gaff rigged.

    This is a big, simple (only one mast and boom to build), and effective rig.


  10. #80
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    Rig 5 is a gaff topsail yawl.

    This about does it for the usual rig variations.

    The yawl has a bigger main than the ketches, and the small standing lug mizzen which is useful for balance and steering. The wheel moved forward slightly in this case because of the mizzen mast conflicting with the steering gear. And the main sheet would probably end up going to the aft end of the pilothouse roof, to be out of the cockpit. But then it will conflict with the dodger!


  11. #81
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    Tad, you do nice work! Lovely choices! And so quickly done! I'm envious of those who can draw. (I can play music, but I can hardly produce a straight line with a ruler!)

    Most folks would, I think, choose the Cutter, but as a Ketch man, I prefer Rig 4. There is some separation there, and I think that mainsail would make a perfect, no-chafe set with the help of a vang led to the mizzen top (to the fitting where the shrouds converge) and down. A beautiful, big, perfect wing. An airfoil you can tweak just-right.

    I can see a great downwind-rig there... wind on the quarter, jib boomed-out to windward, main all the way up and out to leeward with a preventer on it to stop a jibe, and a spinaker set from the mizzen and tacked to a deck-ring beside the fore-edge of the main skylight. Mizzen not set, and maybe she'll almost self-steer even downwind (with that lovely rise to the keel forward), or, if she's easy on the helm, mizzen up too and feeding the chute.

    I think I want one....

  12. #82
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    Oops. Typo there -- I meant Rig 2, not 4.

  13. #83
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    Default Deck Houses and other thoughts

    I’m not a fan of large deck houses for several reasons. Windage, of course. Not blocking the view forward from the cockpit. And I prefer a pure pilot house up there, not a saloon. May not provide much living space in port, but sure is nice at sea, particularly at night. This is not to say it’s the only way to go - just my way to go.

    In my experience, large windows are actually troublesome for live aboards. At anchor they’re nice, but if you are in a marina slip you’ll find that every armchair sailor who wanders by wants to peer into your boat. I tried to reasonably explain to people that they wouldn’t appreciate me sticking my nose to the windows of their houses ashore, but few got it. I wound up keeping the windows covered about 90% of the time we were in the slip.

    In response to someone on this thread bad-mouthing live aboards: I lived aboard in Southern California for five years and found the other live aboards in that marina to be mostly quiet, conservative (even rather dull) folk enjoying their retirements. The horror stories involved the weekenders who spent their Saturdays and Sundays drinking, yelling, and falling overboard.

    Bill Rothrock

  14. #84
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    600 ft in a single sail will limit the use.
    but you know that.

  15. #85
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    Those CE calculations all look too far forward to my eye

  16. #86
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    Talking

    When set before such a feast, it's difficult to choose a favorite dish.

    My first reaction is great fondness for the looks of anything with a topsail! I want a multi-mast rig, so for me the cutter is less desireable.

    The schooner is truly nifty, but wreaks such havoc with the internal arrangement... Not for me, i think. Besides, getting that main under control might be quite a task for the oft-solo sailor. Perching on the wheelbox and stretching well aft to reef the main is not my preferred task.

    The Yawl is very pretty, but I think I am tending more toward the ketch. Smaller main sail for one thing, and I am very interested in the many sail options including a mizzen staysail or spinnaker as Dave suggests.

    This leaves me looking at the two ketch options. And of the two, my preference is for the more-strings, (to my eye) drop-dead pretty topsail ketch version, "Option 1". Yes, the self-tending jib of "option 2" is easier to handle. However I am not overly troubled with tacking the jib and staysail about. And I really like the versatility of sail options I can envision with the staysail splitting the forward triangle. And of course, there's the completely subjective salty factor, which like religion and politics, aren't going to be changed with argument!

    So, there's my take on the rig options .

  17. #87
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    Barrett,

    Regarding the rig choice, Tad may be able to tell you about Earle Barlow and his ketch ALTAIR. I bet he'd have good opinions about the topsail ketch rig from his experiences sailing her around the Atlantic from the Baltic to the Caribbean.

    There's also a profile of Earle and his art in a pretty recent WB.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 12-07-2006 at 12:35 PM.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  18. #88
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    The pilothouse in the picture of Josefine in ClassicBoat led me to her website. Don't miss the movie.

    www.sailjosefine.co.uk


    Steven

  19. #89
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    Moving ahead with the 3D model, we're starting to find out more about the available space. The renderings below are the beginning, still lots of detail to be added to the exterior. Windows, ports, main guard, a boottop and some paint would also help. But the proportions seem okay.




  20. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmd
    Steve, one of the down-sides of a small-ish boat with centre cockpit is that it forces all of the sleeping spaces into the ends of the boat where the motion underway is worst. On a larger boat there is still room for pilot berths on one side or the other (or both) of the cockpit and engine compartment, but under 40 or 45 feet you be come forced into living space aft of cockpit and living space forward of cockpit, with cockpit, engine, and tankage getting the "sweet spot" in the hull. Great for the helmsman, but I'd rather be tossed a bit while awake than when trying to sleep.
    Yet, the percentage of cruising time spent underway vs. the time spent at anchor is significant to this question. For most cruisers, the travel time is not a large percentage of their lives, and so a lee cloth on the settee berth while underway works well.

    If most time will be enjoying a 'place' and some of that time will see guests joining you, the center cockpit design makes sense. It also has some advantages for passage making.

  21. #91
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    Rig 2 or 4, but I'd go with 2. It hits more of the important things and avoids some pitfalls - I like that it moves the main mast forward a tad, that it increases the size of the mizzen and increases the space between the 2. She's not a schooner, to me, and #5 creates TOO many problems (aft mast placement and the rigging etc. problems you mention). 4 is an option, but if I was single handing, the size of the main wouldn't be as nice to live with as what you'd give me in rig 2. So, when you draw one up for us, just remember we want rig 2!
    Last edited by Nanoose; 12-07-2006 at 11:23 PM.

  22. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nanoose
    I like that it moves the main mast forward a tad....
    witty
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  23. #93
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    Default Yes!

    My wife and I (+ cat: "Mizzen") lived aboard for three years, on Lake Ontario, through the winter too. Our wooden boat was 34' with a 9.5' beam; very small by today's standards. The main aspect for a couple to liveaboard, is: Do you view a small space as 'cramped' or 'cozy'? If 'cozy' is the answer then the rest is easy. One winter the ice in the marina was 36" thick. With a hard-chine hull, any movement in the ice could have caused disaster, but it didn't. The vistas were stark, serene and incredible. The neighbours were an example of what human can rise to, and life was simple, controlled and tactile. We loved it. Becoming intimate with your ship is a wonderful feeling. Nevermind what boat you have, what size, what shape.......just do it. Wake up in a different location every morning if you want. Try it! It'll give you great stories.

  24. #94
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    OK, TR...we're waiting for an update.

    Where are things at?

    You need to know this thread has done some BIG damage!!!! As former liveaboarders, you've got us dreaming again. And we know what happened the last time we did that! We sold the house, moved aboard and sailed away!!!! AAAARRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!

    So, where are we at already?

  25. #95
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    Sorry People,

    I had a delivery that was endlessly delayed by storms, then (real) work to catch up on. Barrett and I have been talking about engine choices and the model has been updated. I'll try to get something up later today.

    Tad

  26. #96
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    TR.. no problem.. As a future live aboard.. very near future.. I'm always interested what you post here.
    I'm gonna have to wing it a bit but....

  27. #97
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    If was designing a boat to live on ...

    Living area goes up as the square of the length. Headroom goes up as the length. Stores go up as the cube of the length.

    A bath large enough to feel luxurious. Everyone needs a place to go relax and perk up their spirits.

    A bed, much more than a bunk, for those who need one with a large enough skylight for each to feel the sky.

    A galley where I have enough room to cook one hot meal a day.

    Layout the furniture. Draw the boat around it.

  28. #98
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    I smell HOUSEBOAT!!
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  29. #99
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    wow...definitely in favor of rig #2.

    Help a guy propogate his daydream...how would this craft do in the Great Lakes? (Steep, choppy 6-8 foot waves)
    \"A little too tall, coulda used a few pounds...\"

  30. #100
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    On the days when you are getting wave activity from two directions at once, she should do just fine as the heel should smooth things out, but if we are talking of the days when we have three directions of waves,...no boat does well. It's like sailing into huge water-filled cones. The Great Lakes, ...Ontario in particular, can be a nightmare. Still, how often does that happen?

    Build the boat and go!


    In regard to the boat's shape, I'd keep the lines so the whole stern is in the water at rest, so when sleeping you won't get the waves slapping into the hollow at the bottom of the transom.....(referring to the 3D rendering image in this thread) This can be very loud.
    Last edited by Kitlani; 12-22-2006 at 08:04 PM.

  31. #101
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    Yes, you're right about the Great Lakes Chop. The typical mid-continent weather pattern is about a 3-day period. You get 3 days with the wind from one direction, usually NW, then a frontal passage, then 3 days SW, then it veers to NW again.

    There's nearly always a swell in Huron, or Georgian Bay, that is leftover from the previous episode. And, since these patterns are never perfect, sometimes a third as well.

    We've had some HORRIBLE days out on the open water, especially in modern sloops that are short and wide, with the boat leaping spasmodically in upredictable corkscrews. Trying to beat NW against the 7-8 footers, with the remnants of the SW swell, plus coastal interferences and reflections (hard rock shores) can be exasperating. Relief, when you abandon the open water and take refuge in some hidden harbour in the 30,000 Islands, is sweet and pure, like a retreat to the womb.

    The solution? Boat size, I think. There is no substitute for length (no dirty jokes up here please) and mass. That plus discretion in travel plans. Some days you just stay put.

  32. #102
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    I don't think this boat is intended for the Great Lakes. Beautiful BC, Alaska and such will be home, I believe.

  33. #103
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    Oops, yes, you're right -- sorry for side-tracking the thread.

    Dave

  34. #104
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    Sorry! Disagree.
    That boat is perfect for 99% of the weather on the Great Lakes.
    So is a powered dingy, a cigarette boat and an egg-beater powered bathtub. Just get out there. You'll love it.
    Just don't go out when there are 6 ft. traffic cones of water around.

    P.S.-Yes it is fine sailing on the BC coast...watch out for the logs, .........something you don't get on the Great Lakes.

  35. #105
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    There are plenty of logs and deadheads,just not as big.
    Traffic cones?I recall waves that were like tepees,on Lake Erie.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

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