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Thread: Speaking of Living Aboard...

  1. #36
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    Some things just come down to a matter of personal taste and that's all there is to it. Por ejemplo I like tall, boxy looking houses on the right hull but I absolutely detest leeboards on any hull. So it goes.

  2. #37
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    JimD.. I think so.. nothing against what has been posted.. It is just me.... We all have our differences....

  3. #38
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    We've had some interesting comments above, including some from the owner of the subject vessel. My thanks to all who contribute.

    But as the life of sketches goes, those above where short lived and are really only the beginning of a search for a particular feel. They are often referred to as cartoons and this is for a reason, no detail is well thought through, one can pick out numerous problems almost the minute they are scribbled in. But that's okay at this point as they elicit comments , usually of the, "yes...but what if" type.

    This is when the designer's job gets tough, "kill your darlings" one swipe of the electric eraser and "great" ideas are gone forever. But the designer must keep the changes (that come fast and hard) integrated with the whole. Otherwise the boat becomes a dogs breakfast, a collection of ideas that aren't related.

    Thus this morning we're back to clean sheet of paper....nice! The performance enhancements in sketch #2 were nixed by the owner in favor of something closer to the first drawing. A heavier look, simpler straight full keel, and the more traditional gaff rig. But we've incorporated the transom and the waterline is longer, which is great. I'll push for a tall Marconi mizzen (after Angleman) to lighten the rig slightly, but I'm thinking about the arrangement today.

    We've also returned to the raised mid-deck with wells forward and aft as the simplest and roomiest arrangement.

    Barrett and I had a conversation regarding the cockpit. As she will be living aboard in the PNW through some long rainy winters I am concerned about where all the wet stuff goes. My thought is to make the cockpit into a front porch with an awning over the mizzen boom. I have also incorporated a two level cockpit in this new arrangement, with a higher level outboard which will enable everyone to see over the pilothouse. And then we have a lower section about 4' by 5' inboard and forward which can have protected seats and provides space for a 5' high sliding door to the pilothouse. A sliding hatch above the door is an option.

    The pilothouse has storage to starboard immediately inside the door. There will be a row of deep drawers here for tools and parts that are always needed on deck. Forward of the storage lockers is an inside helm with swivel chair. Vision is less than perfect from here, but it's a great place to be on those cold days when you're under power. Opposite is a raised L shaped seat with folding table, the seat is 6' long so one could stretch out here for a nap.

    Forward on the port side in the pilothouse is an open rail so one can see right forward to the main bulkhead. The open overhead in the galley gives it a clearstory effect adding light and views to a usually dark area. The galley is at the bottom of the steps, with refrigeration aft under the pilothouse seats and side deck. Opposite is the head, and there is no shower stall. My feeling is that living aboard a 38' boat, the separate shower is just too expensive volume wise compared to it's use. I would much rather have a bigger pilothouse, another big locker, or another seat and bookcase in the saloon. Showers are available in most marinas where one ties in the PNW, and in most of NA. But that's just me, we'll see.

    Moving forward we have a central heater facing into the saloon with seat/berths and lockers or shelves port and starboard. Forward of this area is the sleeping cabin with room for a really large double berth and some lockers.

    The major limitation I see in this arrangement is the lack of really great hanging locker space. Where do the dinner jackets and formals hang? I really like that the head is in a corner by itself, but some will object to having it in the saloon. And the mizzen mast location is less than ideal for access to the settee in the pilothouse; maybe I'll move it back into the cockpit.

    Nudging and juggling. Tad

    The design now has a name....the Pilot Bay 38

  4. #39
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    Great changes. I'd have kept the fin keel, but it's not my dollar.

    I once drove a boat that had an inside steering position, the compass on deck was a binnacle (ie top reading) and the one inside was a bulkhead (ie front reading), it was a real case of rubbing your head and patting your stomach, I never got used to the transition.

    Of course, you may not have inside steering, just a remote on the autopilot.

    Congratulations Barrett, it was easy to see you were the client, but it's official now.

    Inside shower.

  5. #40
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    Tad...

    all I can say that's printable is WOW. Love it. Where's the "make it so" button?

    -Barrett

  6. #41
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    Well...it looks like a 40 foot version of Tana Mari with a raised house fer inside steering.....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
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  7. #42
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    Just my inconsequential opinion but could I talk anyone into three windows at least as high as they are wide instead of two windows that are wider than they are high? To my eye it would look more like a boat and less like a Buick if that's not too miserable a thing to say.

  8. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimD
    Just my inconsequential opinion but could I talk anyone into three windows at least as high as they are wide instead of two windows that are wider than they are high? To my eye it would look more like a boat and less like a Buick if that's not too miserable a thing to say.
    To each their own, Jim . I specifically wanted windows wider than they are high, heh. To use your car analogy, I prefer the "Buick" look over the "Model T" look. Windows as high or higher than they are wide draw my eye upward and make the house look taller to me. I prefer a lower "feel" to the pilot house, and like this window aspect ratio to help that feel.

  9. #44
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    Tallship Royaliste; 50' o.d., 71' o.a. no deck cabins to speak of, basically flush decked -13 hands, regular and trainee crew last summer from June to the last of August!....When you need some stories about cramped living, gimmee a holler!...Gary
    At Sea Aboard Royaliste

  10. #45
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    I would get rid of the cowl vents.....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
    "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

  11. #46
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    Points of concern;

    Aesthetics -
    Long lines are more graceful than short ones, thus the windows are longer and lower, rather than short and tall. To my eye the big double-ended cutter's pilothouse looks like a phone booth that has been parked on the aft deck. It does not appear to grow out of the deck, rather it's another addition. Visually it could be changed a great deal by changing the window shape. If the roof was given more crown, more overhang, and an eyebrow to lower the edge molding 3", it would be a different boat.

    The eyebrow molding also needs to be scaled down, molding size should be graduated as you move up from the waterline. Main guard is (visually) heaviest, next the cap rail, then the trunk edge molding, and finally the pilothouse top molding should be lightest of all. The graduations can be as little as 1/4" and still be enough to make a difference.

    Cockpit -
    The cockpit/entrance area/pilothouse are key to the workability of this arrangement. There is a great deal going on in these areas and much activity will center here. One point of clarification is that the cockpit awning will be below the mizzen boom and forward of the sheet. So that the boat can be sailed with that awning up. My previous statement that the awning could go over the mizzen boom was a reflex brought on by fisherman's mindset. Putting the mizzen mast in the pilothouse was part of the same thinking. Moving the mast aft (and outside) will free access to the inboard end of the settee but it will complicate the exterior awning.

    I had a thought about eliminating the sliding hatch, which would get rid of the constant rain in that corner of the pilothouse. But on reflection a 5' tall door doesnít really do it, so we're back to needing a hatch and wanting to extend the awning forward over it. Or perhaps building a garage for the hatch and it's own small folding dodger.

    I am also scheming ways to access the engine and engine space. Right away I see two options, one inside and one outside. One thought would be to build a small trunk cabin (seat height) right aft of the pilothouse on the port side of centerline. Then you could step in and get down alongside the engine with headroom under the pilothouse seat. There would be room for a real workshop aft.

    Another option would be to hinge up a section of the seat just inside the pilothouse door. Again, down a few steps and forward along the port side of the engine to check oil etc. Major access would be hinged panels in the pilothouse sole.

    Wet Locker -
    There is currently a locker outboard of the inside helm, this could be enlarged and accessed from the head. With a closing vent to the engine room for heat and an exhaust vent out the pilothouse top this locker could become a drying room. With a fiberglass lining and drain in the bottom it becomes a wet locker. Not ideal location wise, but not impossible.

    Shower -
    When I did not draw in a separate shower stall I did not mean the boat would have no shower. I lived for years with a circular shower curtain and fiberglass sole (with drain) in the head. A portable shower head on a hose w/squeeze valve works just fine. You do need hot and cold pressurized water, but this is (to me) one of the basics.

    There are three relatively simple and autonomous methods for heating water in quantity. First a diesel cook stove or heating stove is a popular item in the PNW. While our climate is not really cold like the Atlantic Seaboard, it is cool on the water year-round, and oil stoves are useful at least 10 months of the year. You can heat water in a small ss tank with a copper coil in the stove burner. Next option is a coil in your HW tank off the engine cooling system. And third is a separate diesel or propane fired furnace or instantaneous water heater. The last option is the most complex and expensive. They all work, some just require more forethought than others. Personally, bathing with a kettle would be too much like camping out.

    Tad

  12. #47
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    Great process and thanks for making us part of it.

    Something to think about for further down the track ( the design track I mean)is a housing bowsprit. I'm doing this myself because of the way that berthage prices/rentals are going. Its something that can only get worse and here at least, the cost difference between a 40 ft to a 46 ft berth is substantial to say the least. Even if prices currently are acceptable where the boat will be used, time marches on, things change and because people on boats are "rich" they're easy meat for local govt .
    It would mean she'd need to be a cutter head though and that may not be on the wish list?

  13. #48
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    Thumbs up Macnaughton Group

    This group is out of Eastport, ME. Tom Macnaughton and his brother Dan have some pretty good articles and knowledge on the subject. They also have a good deal of plans. This is the link to the site

    http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/catalog.htm

    FYI: Dan Macnaughton just put out the book " Encyclopedia of Yacht Designers ".
    Last edited by few3; 11-19-2006 at 10:30 PM.

  14. #49
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    Yes John, I have your bowsprit project firmly in mind. I haven't decided which exact system to use, and we haven't even decided whether the sprit will be on centerline or offset. There's a Culler cutter up here (Seattle) with a hinged sprit, it swings up vertically, which at least keeps it off the deck. I agree that a permanently set up inner forestay would be good to have with the outer being set flying as it were.

    Insurance companies rule much of life in NA, and many marinas are now allowing no overhang at all from the berth length. The little 38'6" ketch grows to 54' overall with the dinghy on davits and the bowsprit. I would set up chocks on deck forward of the PH for marina storage of the dinghy, and with the sprit housed you could squeeze into a 40' berth. Then you have to un-ship the davits and top up the mizzen boom, and don't forget the flag staff!

    Tad



  15. #50
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    Default Why It's Dangerous to Have a Sketch

    I know it doesn't pertain very much to the discussion at hand, but I couldn't help myself. Colors are just a thought, of course nothing's ever final until the paint is bought. I have a green version too, but so darn Christmas-esque with the tanbark sails, i couldn't post it , and my prior version with green hull/white sails isn't shaded as well.

    Last edited by Barrett Faneuf; 11-20-2006 at 10:35 PM.

  16. #51
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    Great thread!

  17. #52
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    Barrett,

    Nice paint scheme. The 'light above dark' on the topsides will make a slightly chunky boat look longer and lower. A wider light colored boot top would add to that effect, IMO.

    I see you've got separate seating areas for eating (the dinette in the deckhouse) and lounging around (reading, conversation, etc. in the main cabin). There are ergonomic designs that suit those two purposes well. AFAIK eating is more comfortable with seat backs that have a slightly more upright tilt and a shorter seat, while lounging around calls for a more slanted seat back with a longer seat cushion.

    Has anyone else heard this? Tad??
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  18. #53
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    Beautiful rendering Barrett, thanks, the colours really bring the boat alive.

    Dave,
    Having designed places for people to sit for 20+ years, yes, I am aware of anthropometric requirements and the existing data on the subject. The best and most current reference is The Measure of Man and Woman, Human Factors in Design, by Henry Dreyfuss Associates.

    The problem with most seating in boats is that it tries to be dual use, relaxing and upright dining, and thus is not great at either. Think about the difference between your living room couch and a standard dining chair. Something in between those two is not very good. So most settees in boats end up working reasonably well for one thing, usually the dining function. Also in many boats you want to maximize the storage under a seat, thus make it taller and wider.

    Seats trade off height and depth somewhat like stair treads. Taller chairs have a shorter seat, lower couches have a deeper seat. So the ideal dining chair might be 17-18" high and 16" deep, while a couch might only be 12" off the sole but 24" deep. Many boat seats end up at a compromise of 18" high and 18" deep (not including the back rest).

    Barrett's boat will indeed have two separate seat configurations, the pilothouse seat will be high and shallow, because this is a working area. (also a tight space) And the Saloon is more of a lounging area, though there will probably be a drop-leaf table down there as well. But one can put pillows behind you to sit up at table occasionally, then move them to stretch out. The saloon settees will also be spare berths.

    Papillon,
    While there are certainly practical differences between various windshield rake angles, in this case the styling took precedence. The raked windshield boat above also has a raked stem and overall a more modern look. Barrett was very firm that she wants a more upright style, with the vertical stem and house front, in keeping with the workboat heritage of the design.

    I'm happy with the vertical stem because a longer waterline makes the Pilot Bay a better boat. And as long as the overall styling works together, I'm happy with it. A short-ended, wide hull like this would look silly with a modern streamlined chrome and black glass house on it, thus each part must be related to the whole. The Pilot Bay is a comfortable and friendly appearing design, that welcomes one aboard, much in the style of her owner. The streamlined standoffish racy look is not Barrett's style, and boat's should fit their owner's style...or is it the other way round?

    Tad

  19. #54
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    I think the bulwarks picked out like that, makes her look too much like a Fisher 37


  20. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl
    I think the bulwarks picked out like that, makes her look too much like a Fisher 37
    Wow. Different stuff strikes folks' eyes in different ways, I suppose. For me the boats are very different, and to my eye that's all in the rake of the stem, the shape of the hull, not to mention the house being *utterly* different.

  21. #56
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    Thanks for the explanation of seating attributes, Tad. I suspected you'd know all about it. Does your experience tell you whether the seat and backs should be curved in any way for comfort in the different cases? But there's always the trade off with the desire to max out storage underneath or behind, and the spare berth function (as you also said).
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  22. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barrett Faneuf
    Wow. Different stuff strikes folks' eyes in different ways, I suppose. For me the boats are very different, and to my eye that's all in the rake of the stem, the shape of the hull, not to mention the house being *utterly* different.
    I only meant the bulwarks. The boats are otherwise completely different. I've never been a fan of the Fishers, i love your boat.

    I'm sorry I mislead you,, it was not my intention.

  23. #58
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    Beyond the various styling exercises we need to start establishing what we really have in the way of volume (internal) to work with. The first step down this road is hull lines. Preliminary lines appear below. Like any lines drawing there are endless tweaks every time I go back and look at them. In this case the hull form is about done but the keel could still use considerable development.

    This hull is somewhat similar to those of the late Lyle Hess, but it has some differences. This boat is finer at the waterline but a little wider at the sheer, fuller in the bow at the deck, and fuller down low where the volume will provide sole width and space for tankage. A Hess design of this size would probably have 6" more keel depth. The PB will be a little more tender than a Hess boat, but that will be okay as we have the lower CE with the ketch rig rather than the tall cutter.

    Some statistics on the hull, note we are short the aft foot of keel at the waterline due to the station system, so it is indicated as 1' shorter than it really is.

    Project : Pilot Bay 38
    Designer : TR

    Design length : 38.000 [ft]
    Length over all : 38.077 [ft]
    Design beam : 12.064 [ft]
    Beam over all : 13.279 [ft]
    Design draft : 5.500 [ft]
    Midship location : 19.000 [ft]
    Water density : 63.989 [lbs/ft3]

    Volume properties:
    Displaced volume : 458.80 [ft3]
    Displacement : 13.106 [tons]
    Total length of submerged body : 36.781 [ft]
    Total beam of submerged body : 11.749 [ft]
    Block coefficient : 0.1930
    Prismatic coefficient : 0.5896
    Vert. prismatic coefficient : 0.3141
    Wetted surface area : 473.13 [ft2]
    Longitudinal center of buoyancy : 17.203 [ft]
    Longitudinal center of buoyancy : -4.886 [%]
    Vertical center of buoyancy : 4.072 [ft]
    Midship properties:
    Midship section area : 21.156 [ft2]
    Midship coefficient : 0.3274
    Waterplane properties:
    Length on waterline : 36.781 [ft]
    Beam on waterline : 11.749 [ft]
    Waterplane area : 265.56 [ft2]
    Waterplane coefficient : 0.6145
    Waterplane center of floatation : 17.209 [ft]
    Entrance angle : -86.567 [degr.]
    Transverse moment of inertia : 2039.5 [ft4]
    Longitudinal moment of inertia : 16436 [ft4]
    Initial stability:
    Transverse metacentric height : 8.517 [ft]
    Longitudinal metacentric height : 39.895 [ft]
    Lateral plane:
    Lateral area : 168.62 [ft2]
    Longitudinal center of effort : 17.343 [ft]
    Vertical center of effort : 3.015 [ft]


  24. #59
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    Tad...Those figures are very close to the Hess 40 which is actually 39 feet....I used Renegade as a model when I did the 44'9" cutter Tana Mari......and sent them to Lyle for evaluation, which he was very kind enough to do...and he sent the lines for the 40, which I still have...If you would like them for comparison I can send you a copy of Lyles boat and mine...The lines drawings that is.....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
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  25. #60
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    Very nice Tad. Iím following this with great interest. A couple of questions: What design program are you using? What construction method is proposed?

  26. #61
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    Just moving this fine thread to the top, and I'm curious Tad, how you transfer the drawings to computer. Do you enter offsetts? Is there an easier way? Do you put all your designs into a computer (including small boats?) Is it worth while? I once saw a device that used RF to measure objects and enter them into a CAD program. That would be great for half hull carvings!

  27. #62
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    Sorry to go off, a couple of busy days.

    Chuck,
    Thanks for your comments and offer of lines drawings, are they in electronic format? Don't bother sending anything in the mail but the comparison of mid sections might be interesting. The information I have on the Hess 40 states LOD as 40'3", LWL 36'6", beam 13'3", draft 6'0"and displacement at 32,000. Boat still appears very fine forward to my eye.

    Don,
    Thanks for your comments. The 3D hull modeling is done in FREE!ship 2.6. I tend to use different programs and design methods depending on the requirements of a particular project, nothing suits everything. I use Rhino a great deal, sometimes for modeling the hull, usually for the deck and sometimes structural detail or parts for sheet material boats.

    In the past I've used Multisurf, Prolines, and Prosurf which are all fine but difficult to use in comparison to Rhino. FREE!ship does everything (I need) that the expensive hull fairing programs do, plus I find it a bit more versatile in that you can build a pretty crazy mesh, without worrying about rectangular nets. Thus Barrett's hull is possible, an integrated full keel being about the most complex undertaking for a computer hull fairing program. Most of these type programs force one to do the canoe hull as one surface and the keel as another, which is a pain in every way. To produce a fair hull they must be one surface or you can spend ages trying to get them to intersect. FREE!ship works.

    We have decided that the boat will be built using sheathed strip-planking over laminated (widly spaced) ring frames. Larger members will all be laminated Douglas Fir. Planking will probably be Western Red Cedar, sub-deck will be mahogany plywood, as will bulkheads.

    Stephen,
    The initial pencil sketch is freehand, but to scale, in this case 3/16" = 1'0". This is small enough to scan by my desktop printer/scanner and make a simple .jpg file. (it's a photograph of the sketch) I can then use this as a background image in FREE!ship, or Rhino, or AutoCAD. The cute thing is that a 15" sketch can be drawn over at full size, donít ask how that works, computer magic I guess.

    I can then draw vector lines over the picture of my desired sheer, stem profile, keel profile, transom, and deck plan. So the model starts very close to the sketch, but once I see it in 3D I start wiggling stuff. But really it's pretty straight ahead work.

    I should mention that I usually sketch a mid section to estimate fairbody depth.

    Thus I model the hull in the computer, by eye, but I have constant access to hydrostatic data as I adjust things. These days I try to stay away from offsets and send out full size body plan plots. It's usually pretty easy to obtain offsets from a surface, but plots of the frames make life easy for the builder.

    And no, I still do some design work outside the computer, but precious little. Not that long ago hand drawing was faster for me, but not anymore. Small boats (under 16') are lofted at the Shipyard School as that is a part of the course, boats I draw for them are done by hand. But I just recently did a 16' lapstrake boat that will be production built in Asia and that is all computer documents. It's nothing to do with size really, just the scope of the project. I have a client who will pay for beautiful hand drawings, most don't care, or think a hand drawing is somehow inferior!

    For me there is great pleasure in handling ducks and splines, but I notice now that I get irritated with small changes in a hand lines drawing that might take an hour to re-fair, and it's seconds in the puter. As I do have to make the most of my time, I pay attention to such things.

    All the best, Tad

  28. #63
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    I'm really, really enjoying this thread. The boat is looking quite splendid. Tad and I had a really good off-line email exchange prompted by this thread; gotta say, I love the generosity of this place.

    The question arising from that for me, was one Roger Long brought up some months back on another thread - discussing seaworthiness. His point was that within obvious limits, seaworthiness can mean slightly different things depending on a boat's intended use. He used pinkies and friendship sloops to illustrate - both are very seaworthy. The Friendship's transom and hard bilges will give it more power to stand up to its sail, prolly because the original users would usually sail towards harbour in a storm. The Pinky's sharp stern would be pushed around less by big seas, making it less likely to "trip" when running before a storm ... as the original Pinky users were more likely to do, considering how their boats were used.

    Both are very seaworthy - with that term defined slightly differently, reflecting different intended uses.

    This Pilot Bay 38 design seems to me to reflect more of the "stand up and sail" perspective - which matches its intended primarily coastal cruising use too. To my eye, though, that broad transom seems to give a big plane for large following seas to push around.

    Is that just my naivete speaking? The hull is essentially double ended on the waterline, and there's very little overhang extending beyond it. So would all that reserve buoyancy simply lift in big following seas, so the boat really presents no more area to be pushed around than a double-ended model? The extra interior volume and deckspace of the transom stern is a huge plus ... are there tradeoffs?

    What have people who have sailed both kinds of boat found?
    Last edited by TomF; 11-27-2006 at 10:07 AM.
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  29. #64
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    Tom, all this can be rendered useless by Tad, I'd say the boat if involved in coastwise work, would motor or motorsail to a safe haven at the onset of bad weather. I would envisage Barrett, in the wheelhouse, slightly brace wearing jeans and a turtle neck. Her foul weather gear including harness and lifey would be nearby. A nice cup of coffee in her hand.


    If the boat were on passage and it came on to blow, if the wind was favorable, she'd handle well under staysail, maybe making 4 knots on a broad reach, sailed either from inside (higher lat's) or outside (tropics). In an adverse wind blow, she'd probably carry staysail and reefed mizzen, on just a little higher than a beam reach to about 45 knots, after that I'd get the sail off her and my cup of coffee and energy bar in the wheelhouse.

    Gareth daydreaming and procrastinating in Maine.

    P.S. an aside: I was moving the Schooner Defiance, up Penobscot bay, I was on my own, there was about zero to five knots of wind from astern. It was pouring rain, the vis was about 1/4 mile and only steely determination was keeping me going. The rain was leaking into my foul weather jacket through the sleeves and pooling up at my elbows, I'd lower my forearms every now and again to drain it.

    A trawler came into view from astern and was overtaking me, as she drew alongside, the helmsman slid open the cabin door, he was standing there in jeans and T shirt. He shouted to me "What that boat needs, is windshield wipers". Well the Pilot Bay (I'll take a 56 please Tad) has windshield wipers.
    Last edited by Hwyl; 11-27-2006 at 04:20 PM.

  30. #65
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    I was wondering if Gareth would chime in with his offshore experience. IMO, the double-ended vs. transom stern debate is overblown in importance.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  31. #66
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    What I've learned from living aboard in San Diego Harbor is that you must be a drinking, doping, theiving, urine incrusted, alcoholic sociopath to live aboard. This is why I live in a nice apartmant on the beach in Mexico.

  32. #67
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    Dec 2000
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    Olympia, WA, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl
    I would envisage.<snip>... A nice cup of coffee in her hand. <snip>
    Tea, actually. Good strong melt-the-spoon tea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanbark Spanker
    What I've learned from living aboard in San Diego Harbor is that you must be a drinking, doping, theiving, urine incrusted, alcoholic sociopath to live aboard.
    Damn good thing I don't intend to live in southern California, then, isn't it?

  33. #68
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    Yes, homeless on boats, welfare on the water. When it rains, all of the filth from the city washes down into that little basin of the Laurel Street Roadsted Moorings. It may be a million dollar view but you've got the trailer-park for neighbors.

    "Pump-out station? Heck, I just throw the whole bucket over the side."
    " I wait till it gets dark, then sink the bag [of trash] ...or let it drift off."
    " With the rent [$140], I just want to live in Catalina ...for free."

    Ah, only the best of the best of the best, sir. And people wonder how a few hundred "boaters" can keep the whole of the Harbor Police busy.

  34. #69
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    Is it possible to steer this worthy thread back to its original direction?



    Thankyou Tad and Barrett for sharing this discussion with us.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  35. #70
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    Well it seems we'll take the scenic route to getting back on track today.

    I should say something about seaworthiness as it does indeed bear a great deal on the use, shape, and function of the liveaboard boat. At one end of our scale we'll have a static barge, it floats but doesnít sail worth a dam, except very slowly out of control down wind. It would be our last choice for a voyage to Patagonia.

    At the other end of our scale will be the "ultimate storm" boat. She would be slim and deep, mostly flush decked, have positive stability to about 175 degrees and a moderately tall all inboard cutter rig. Could have a fin and separate rudder, or a full keel, but a shallow forefoot so she answers the helm reliably and turns quickly. She will have a tiny cockpit with a solid shelter for the main hatch and person on watch. Would she have a modern knife-edge vertical stem and no-flair topsides forward? No, actually she would better resemble modern single-handed racers (but slimmer) with full buoyant forward sections. She would definitely have a transom, but high and not too big, to provide reserve buoyancy and horsepower when heeled and driving to windward.

    The barge would be great to live aboard, but useless to try sailing. The ultimate storm boat would be great to sail in the open ocean, but a bit grim to live on.

    Dead on the 50% mark of this seaworthiness scale will be a decent 50/50 motorsailer. Something like Sam Crocker's Amos Judd, shallow draft with a small centerboard, moderate sized rig, good beam, and a big deckhouse with lots of glass. A great boat for places like the Chesapeake Bay or Sacramento Delta.

    To my way of thinking the Pilot Bay will land about halfway between the Amos Judd and the ultimate storm boat. And I believe that's about where she'll see some use. Most of her life will be in the semi-sheltered waters of the PNW, with occasional short trips in the open North Pacific. If Barrett decides (when) to run away to New Zealand, no problem...cut her loose and go. But if a voyage to Antarctica or the North West Passage is contemplated, more thought and consideration is in order.

    Seaworthiness is a combination of many factors, moderation in all aspects of hull form, not too much beam, not too little freeboard, not to little draft. Solid construction, excellent maintenance, the best possible equipment, and a well rested and aware crew are really important. The shape of the stern above the waterline becomes a small factor in light of so many other variables. Absolutely any form, poorly handled, can get in trouble at sea.

    Tad

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