Page 1 of 5 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 151

Thread: Speaking of Living Aboard...

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default Speaking of Living Aboard...

    It seems lots of folks would entertain the concept of living aboard a wooden sailing vessel. Some actually do it; some do it part time, some stick close to home, others do it to travel the world.

    Having lived aboard various boats, (some sailing vessels and others working commercial boats, most wooden) I have some ideas about how such vessels should be shaped and arranged. Of course all this is subject to revision with more experience.

    The first rule is, as the Pardey's among others have said, is "go small, go now". What does this really mean....first the Pardey's are small people and fit nicely where really large people have a difficult time. They started out with the 24' Seraffyn, the shortest and biggest boat possible. Some find it possible to live aboard a 20’ Flicka, her designer Bruce Bingham did it for a while. But if you have a family the boat needs to get bigger. Tom Colvin’s rule was 10’ of length for each person, but I would find living with four people on a 40’ very tight.

    A major prerequisite for living aboard is interior volume, enough space to separate the various living functions, cooking, eating, sleeping, bathing, and most important, sailing! As interior space is coupled directly to beam and waterline length the ideal liveaboard has a maximum of both, within the bounds of the boat's other requirements, such as performance and styling.

    So my rule for liveaboard hull form is give her lots of beam and short ends. This also creates a hull with a large waterplane which handles the inevitable overloading (less sinkage) better than a boat with a fine waterplane. A general rule is that each person living aboard will bring between 1000 and 2000 extra pounds of stuff along.

    A big hull also allows room for tankage; fuel, water, black & gray. This tankage is necessary for autonomy, which is the reason for doing the liveaboard thing.

    I'm working on a new liveaboard and will post inspirations and sketches below.

    Tad

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Auckland ,N.Z.
    Posts
    24,982

    Default

    Looking forward to it.
    5 of us just holidaying aboard our boat for a month at a time at 41 ' x 8'6" beam x 31 ' w/l is like living in a pup tent.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    28,131

    Default

    Tad, nice of you to drop by our little forum. You realize you can't just announce sketches are to follow and then walk away like this. We want those sketches asap, please.

    Beam, gear, and stores in lieu of ballast makes sense for a livaboard but creates some seaworthiness questions as you know better than I. So when do we get to see the sketches? Huh? Huh?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    120

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John B
    Looking forward to it.
    5 of us just holidaying aboard our boat for a month at a time at 41 ' x 8'6" beam x 31 ' w/l is like living in a pup tent.
    You should see what is like on Pearl which is 28' X 7' w/ 21'lwl. Four days on her is like living in the dish cabinet.
    "Now where did I put that?"

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Chesapeake Beach, Md 20732 U.S.A.
    Posts
    26,750

    Default

    Darn Tad.....I thought 44 feetz was about right.......but I sorta think that you start with 25-30 feet and add 10 feet for each additional person....maybe I'm figgerin' with the wrong end of me pencil but it feels right....
    and your right.....about the baggage. If you start at 25 feet it's good for one person, 30 feet is sooooomuch better. It allows enough tankage for fuel and water, plus a thousand pounds of stores per person for 60 days. Today you can get by with a lttle less if you have a watermaker.....but a thousand pounds is accurate....then if you add 10 feet for each additional person, the displacement takes care of itself...
    If you have three persons on board..you will probably have an extra dink and possible a second outboard....and folding bicycle...and bedding...etc....
    Wakan Tanka Kici Un
    ..a bad day sailing is a heckuva lot better than the best day at work.....
    Fighting Illegal immigration since 1492....
    Live your life so that whenever you lose, you're ahead."
    "If you live life right, death is a joke as far as fear is concerned."

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    13,626

    Default

    Seaworthiness of such a liveaboard boat is an interesting question. There's considerable tension between a design that sails well and can take a beating in a storm, and a design that provides for maximum internal volume. Beamy is good for initial stability, but not necessarily good for the ultimate stability.

    In my mind I imagine a line, a scale, if you will, that connects the two extremes -- purebred ocean racers on on end, and floating houses on pontoons on the other end. Boats on different points on this spectrum would (and should) look much different. They will also have different abilities and make different sets of trade-offs.

    I think that a design for a liveaboard boat would be mostly driven by two choices -- what can it do and how much should it cost.

    A boat that's not supposed to poke it's nose out of ICW is different from a boat that would be expected to make coastal hops in sight of land, which is different from a boat aimed at Carribean cruising, and which is still different from a boat capable of extended passagemaking.

    So the boat you're thinking of -- how seaworthy do you want to make her and what is her price point?

    Kaa

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    7,469

    Default

    Tad,
    Tell us about HARRY,please,please,pretty please......perfect for a single person with occassional company,no?
    At the very least,show us a sketch to drive us slightly crazy........

    Peter

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,560

    Default

    Bill Rothrock wrote a book in the seventies entitled 'The Long Distance Cruiser'. I posted one of his designs here (a 51' staysail schooner) which IMO meets the criteria on TR's list. Lo and behold Mr. Rothrock saw the post and responded. It was one of the highlights of my involvement with the WBF. Unfortunately I can't find the post. I think it's been lost.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    200 Bay Street Berlin, MD. 21811
    Posts
    11,655

    Default

    keep going folks.. I reading with great, personal interest....

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default

    Lille Dansker was designed by Murray Peterson and Aage Nielsen and built in 1947 by Hodgdon Brothers in East Boothbay, Maine. She's 38'8" overall with 11'10" beam and based on a Danish revenue cutter. She has a total of 4 berths and one head and is serving as inspiration for a new build which will differ considerably in detail but not in intent.

    Curling up in a corner of the forward settee with the wood stove for company would not be a bad way to go if one had to live aboard. Note the huge engine space, no one will give up that much volume to an engine today, but the space is valuable for storage, access to systems, and tankage.

    These are from a Rudder of the late 40's.




  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,560

    Default

    Her big sister HOLGER DANSKE is for sale... in Tasmania.

    http://tinyurl.com/y2thrs
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    90,734

    Default

    Bill Rothrock wrote a book in the seventies entitled 'The Long Distance Cruiser'. I posted one of his designs here (a 51' staysail schooner) which IMO meets the criteria on TR's list. Lo and behold Mr. Rothrock saw the post and responded. It was one of the highlights of my involvement with the WBF. Unfortunately I can't find the post. I think it's been lost.
    here

    http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...88#post1434088
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default

    The next major rule for living aboard is "air, light, and a view are important". Hatches, skylights, portlights you can see out of, and best of all a deckhouse with big windows. As I live in the PNW I take a lesson from Edwin Monk Senior, big deckhouses with big windows are what's required. Of course there are concerns with seaworthiness, (giant seas breaking in windows) but this is often all out of proportion to the actual use of the boat.

    The key to long life for a wooden boat is plenty of ventilation, and the best ventilators are hatches. A hatch big enough to climb through in every compartment is required. All should have glass or Lexan in them.

    I hear constantly from folks living on traditional sailboats that they hate living in a dark hole with tiny portlights and the constant need to "groundhog" out the hatch to see what's happening.

    The Rothrock schooner is close to my personal answer to live aboard needs, but it fails (for me) in the deckhouse department. A big roomy dinette in the pilothouse and simplify the rabbit warren forward and she would be almost perfect. I want a place I can sit and eat or work or pass the time of day and watch the world go by. We'll address draft further along.

    For now here is my initial profile sketch of a Scandinavian working boat inspired live aboard. This boat will be built by a single owner/builder.

    Tad


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    28,131

    Default

    I drool over almost anything with husky looks and an airy wheelhouse. Forgive me for saying it but comparison to Paul Gartside's motor sailers seems inevitable. Very nice.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    20,375

    Default

    Hi Tad, as you (I think) know, I lived aboard the Peterson/ Neilsen schooner "Defiance" as skipper, and echo what you say about carrying the beam into the ends. I heard that Aage drew the lines for Defiance and see some similarity in Li'l Danske. Defiance was a comfy boat but it would have been interesting to see her without pilot berths.

    I just delivered a Beneteau 523, that had polycarbonate windows in the hull, I have to say; I like that idea, aesthetically it would be tough in a wooden boat, but that ball is in your court. I always feel "on display" in a deckhouse boat.

    What most boats seem to lack is a nice place to relax with a good book, we've talked on here about the chairs on Dyarchy, I like the navigation loungers on Open 60's, it would be interesting to have that kind of comfort in a traditional look, without it becoming a La Z boy.

    Random thoughts I know, thanks for letting us peek into the process.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    206

    Talking

    Say, I think i recognize that sketch, Tad!!

    *grin*

    Can't wait to see the next iteration.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    184

    Default Livin' Large

    Big boat for livin large afloat








  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    16,029

    Default

    Thanks for sharing this with us, Tad. I'll look forward to seeing the proposed deck & interior layout. Can we also be priveleged to seeing the techhie stuff such as the weight estimate and stability stuff? I suspect that besides me, at least Chad would be interested in seeing that sort of stuff.

    Will the fores'l sheet winches be located on on the corners of the pilothouse?

    I particularly like the butterfly-hatch skylight - it not only opens up and lights the main salon, but adds so much to the profile aesthetic. I like the traditional touches of the tiller box and sampson post, too.

    Again, thanks for sharing; can't wait for the next installment.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD
    Beam, gear, and stores in lieu of ballast makes sense for a livaboard but creates some seaworthiness questions as you know better than I.
    The hull volume vs ballast weight question is an endless compromise, "what's all that ballast for?", "why...that's to sink the fat hull down in the water", "What's that fat hull for?" , "oh..to float all that ballast!".

    Mostly you draw a hull the size you need, and hang as much ballast off it as you can as deep as you can get away with. But there are other answers, as illustrated by Ralph Munroe starting in about 1885. As it happens that alternative does not fit in this case.

    Tad

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default

    Please all those who have responded...don't think I'm ignoring you, I've read your questions and comments and am using that to form the next post...(at least if it's a nice question )

    I really don't want to get bogged down in technicalities this early in the process. This thread is about what makes a boat (specifically a wooden sailing vessel) livable and how does one start to deal with those issues from a design standpoint.

    Obviously handling, seaworthiness, and function under way are really important (vital!!) to the boat's role as escape machine. These issues are also tightly intertwined with livability, and we haven't even mentioned constructability, which is vital in the viability of the whole thing.



    Tad

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    7,469

    Default

    Tad,
    Absolutely drop dead gorgeous! The stuff of dreams! I cannot wait to see how this thread evolves.
    But man oh man,she is going to cost a pretty penny to do it just right.This will keep her comfortably out of reach from the great unwashed masses who must toil daily to keep food on the table and clothes on their backs and ,yes,a roof over their heads. Hence my earlier chant for HARRY...great for the reality of having to keep the home base close to work yet infused with lots of old world charm and the ability to show it off on weekend sailing sorties. I think too that HARRY would be eminently buildable and far less intimidating to boot !

    But, this is your show and I love the design you presented even though it is well out of my realm of possiblities. Like I said earlier,the stuff of dreams.

    Perhaps HARRY could be the "star" of another thread on smaller live-a-boards for bums like moi......pretty please with a big helpin' of poutine.


    Peter

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Sioux City, IA
    Posts
    1,121

    Default

    fore and aft cabins with a center cockpit!

    Steve

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Pleasant Valley NS Canada
    Posts
    16,029

    Default

    Steve, one of the down-sides of a small-ish boat with centre cockpit is that it forces all of the sleeping spaces into the ends of the boat where the motion underway is worst. On a larger boat there is still room for pilot berths on one side or the other (or both) of the cockpit and engine compartment, but under 40 or 45 feet you be come forced into living space aft of cockpit and living space forward of cockpit, with cockpit, engine, and tankage getting the "sweet spot" in the hull. Great for the helmsman, but I'd rather be tossed a bit while awake than when trying to sleep.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,560

    Default

    Tad-

    Is your design intended for a liveaboard couple?
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    35,650

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd
    ...forced into living space aft of cockpit and living space forward of cockpit, with cockpit, engine, and tankage getting the "sweet spot" in the hull. ... I'd rather be tossed a bit while awake than when trying to sleep.
    That's a good point, MMD. It's one I've thought about as I've looked at +/- 40 footers with cargo holds - like the traditional working pinkies or sloop boats.

    Colvin's got a few modern versions in the 40 foot range that include cargo holds - forumite George Ray has a pretty one. The hold takes up about the centre 6 feet of the "sweet spot," and Colvin locates the berths directly against the hold's bulkheads, presumably to give them as decent a motion as is possible. The galley - as in the original Pinkies - is stuffed up forward, just behind the peak. Not optimal for the crew, but I don't see how you could do anything else but give the dead fish the smoothest ride. And a cargo hold makes for a very interesting addition to a potential livaboard boat ...

    So what I wonder - what I'm asking - is does the additional displacement from a full hold in an already heavy displacement boat quiet that motion enough to make it relatively livable in any kind of a sea? Or were the inshore fishermen always gladder than hell to get out of the foc'sle and into a berth ashore that stayed put?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default

    Dave, the design is for a currently single owner/builder.

    The owner and I had both admired the Paul Gartside Motorsailers, designs number #108 and #129 http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail6.php#42ms129
    But of course we both saw things that needed to be changed, sail area, construction, deck layout, etc. The Gartside boats use a complex construction method of double or triple planking, also the fantail stern is complex, as is the cockpit and cabin trunk forward. All these features, while beautiful, add hundreds of construction hours. When working with owner builders I try to minimize man hours in putting together the basic vessel, thus the ship takes shape at a satisfying pace.

    Luckily the required character of this vessel suits simple shapes and a less intricate level of detail. The intricate detail can always come, it's just not required right at the start.

    Another requirement is that this boat be a true sailing vessel, this requires a larger rig and allowances for setting various light air sails. This owner likes to sail, as do I, and so she'll be a sailing vessel with a large auxiliary because of local conditions (inlets and large tides) which are often contrary to any progress. In the interests of sailing we'll look at various feathering prop systems.

    And the interest in sailing performance leads to the next sketch. The dam fool designer can never leave well enough alone, always thinking about changes to make the boat "better". Of course change anything for the "better", and you loose out somewhere else.

    The first sketch (posted above) lay on the drawing board, I looked at it, and went away, and came back and looked at it again. Then I began to think about how to improve sailing ability, and cut down on man hours, make the boat lighter and faster.

    This is what happened, actually this started as another double ender, then we started looking at dinghy davits, which look foolish on double-enders. So she acquired a transom. And a much simplified rig.

    Tad


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Flattop Islands
    Posts
    2,240

    Default

    The huge difficulty with divided small (relatively) boats is heat and ventilation. The more compartments you have the more difficult it is to heat in the winter and cool in the summer. Little cubbyholes are fine for short trips, but modern western folk are generally large beasts, and larger spaces are comfortable to live in long term. Of course the opposite is true at sea, when you want a tight spot to jam your body in.

    This is why I'm generally against the practice of placing the galley in-line in either the deckhouse or along one side of the main saloon. I want an L or a U that you can strap yourself into and work. I also want the galley sole as low in the boat as possible, and aft of midships if possible.

    Tom Colvin has my respect, he designed and built some nice boats, but he has little sympathy for the sailors that go out in them. This is from a guy who prepared meals on the floor (don't tell the crew) of the foc'sl galley aboard a Colvin pinky chasing tuna in a North Pacific hurricane.

    Tad

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    35,650

    Default

    Tad, that's a brilliant response. Thanks for giving me lots to ponder.

    t.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    20,375

    Default

    Here are some ideas I'll throw at you Tad, accept or reject as you wish.
    Bowsprit: Put some "Englishstyle" downward curve to it. It would look prettier ad make the jib a nicer shape.

    mizzen staysail: needs to be tacked further forward (I love MS's)

    I'd move the mainsheet forward a bit and consider a small dodger on the back of the pilothouse, just to give that little extra weather protection (reconsidering this as I type)

    Davits: I'd work in a mizzen crutch arrangement and tie the davits into that, it could also be used as a support for a simple bimini/awning between the back of the pilothouse and the crutch. Would also raise the davits a bit.

    Rudder, I'd cut away some the skeg and make the bottom part of the rudder semi balanced (I think Dufour used to do that). You would lose the ability to unship the rudder, but get lots more control

    Respectfully Gareth

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,560

    Default

    Your last sketch reminds me of Thomas Gillmer's 'Jenny Ives', except for the lack of a deckhouse: http://home.maine.rr.com/bmssez/06C37L.htm

    She is his "Calypso" design (reviewed in WB #32) and was used for a while at the WB School.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 11-17-2006 at 05:15 PM.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    28,131

    Default

    Well there's two totally different boats! And I can't tell you how much fun it is being an armchair critic for a professional designer. The second drawing certainly has some yachty cachet to it. And I'll take your word that she would sail better. But it lacks the strength of character of the first which buries the needle on the saltiness scale.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    206

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TR
    ... This thread is about what makes a boat (specifically a wooden sailing vessel) livable and how does one start to deal with those issues from a design standpoint.

    Obviously handling, seaworthiness, and function under way are really important (vital!!) to the boat's role as escape machine. These issues are also tightly intertwined with livability, and we haven't even mentioned constructability, which is vital in the viability of the whole thing.
    Indeed, from the general standpoint of "livability", there is a wide spectrum of goals from the owner's point of view. What do they spend their time doing when not sleeping, eating or actively moving the boat (under sail or power) from Point A to Point B? A couple interested in raising their kids or crating driftwood sculpture will have different needs from the escapist hermit who wants to hole up on a mudflat in way-north BC for a month.

    Another thought down the road is usage and maintenance. A liveaboard is still a boat, and will need its bottom paint renewed, etc etc. How will the owner/resident do this? Depending on geography and inclination, being confident in drying out on the hard by a pier (or on dry-out legs for that matter), or preferring a lift-out at the professional yard come into play. These can influence somewhat the hull form. Will the owner be at a marina most of the time? Making long passages? Drying out on mud flats? Frequent trips to warmer climes (or colder)? All different considerations which can lead to different "ideal" designs for different owners. One person's dream boat may be another's nightmare.

    Among many other random neuron firings, things I considered in a liveaboard requirements set were comfortable bookish evenings, a "craft" area (that isn't boatwork), a "tools" area, and some outside space for the nice weather that we actually get in the Pacific Northwest (shh, don't tell!). Though I would spend a good deal of time at marinas early in residence, significant time would be at anchorages, as well as poking up the BC coast and into some more remote areas, so a good level of self-sufficiency is called for, with attendant storage and tool carrying ability. One of my life plans is making long passages across oceans, so if my liveaboard is the vessel for that, she needs to be a competent sailing vessel that one can live aboard rather than a living space that happens to be afloat and movable. Thus for me, design details such as a non-footwell cockpit - similar to the Pardeys' Taleisin - and a transom design factor heavily. These give substantial storage/utility area in the stern, as well as lots of deck space for a "back porch" area.

    Into this factors my personal "tradeoff" scale. I like to sail, a lot. However I don't need to win races to enjoy myself. I am happy to give up a couple knots or some tacking speed for a fuller, huskier workboat-style hull that will hold more living space.


    Like Tad said above, light is a big consideration, this a large main cabin skylight is essential. For myself, I am a big proponent of "the saltiness quotient", so I incline more to the butterfly-style old-fashioned skylight than a more modern hatch. Actually I incline toward the more old-fashioned style in most boat things, regardlesss of when a design was drawn.

    just some thoughts

    -Barrett

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    200 Bay Street Berlin, MD. 21811
    Posts
    11,655

    Default

    I know I'm gonna be shot down because I know it makes sense.. But that cabin top makes the boat look like a box....
    I know..It is functional.. and from that perspective it makes sense. I like clean lines.. a melding of the lines into one another.. That box stands out.... It may do everything it is intended to do... but it looks as though it was taken off an egg harbor and dumped on it...
    okay shoot me...
    Everything else, I agree with....and am taking into consideration....

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    28,131

    Default

    Uncas, which drawing are you talking about?

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    200 Bay Street Berlin, MD. 21811
    Posts
    11,655

    Default

    JimD.. actually the photos...
    I'm expecting to be dumped on here.. It's okay.. I just don't like the boxyness...The cabin aft just looks so out of place....
    pss. I know its functional.. and yes, makes sense in a lot of ways.. I guess, it just doesn't hit me in the gut....as being a good looking boat.... It's just me....
    Last edited by uncas; 11-17-2006 at 07:13 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. Does anyone here actually
    By uncas in forum People & Places
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: 11-17-2006, 11:51 AM
  2. Fear of living in America?
    By Tar Devil in forum The Bilge
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09-22-2006, 10:42 AM
  3. The Butterfly Living Room Flyer
    By cs in forum The Bilge
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 06-29-2006, 02:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •