Bolger

[lagspiller]

Excuse me for swearing in church, but what is this fascination with Bolger? The designs are probably effective in that they are easier to build than most boats, and they float. Materials and methods make them cheap. I guess. But does that rate all the exposure this one designer gets on the forum?

I can see there is a place for Walmart and Five & Dime, too. But there is more to life than bugdet stores. There must be loads of other, exciting newer designers that deserve some recognition.

When boat designs are discussed here, Phil and Nat get about 80% of the billing. How about bringing some of the others out a little more often?

[garyspear]

you got something against making sailing accessable to those of more modest means? what is the point of the rant?

[lagspiller]

You got it turned around. I'm asking why there is so little of anything else.
Walmart is good - for what it is.

[John Bell]

Not all, or even most of Bolger's designs are boxes. Like the Atkins and LFH, he's written a lot about his designs and the thinking that went into them. The exposition of ideas leads to a lot of discussion, which in turn breeds even more discussion. The fact that Bolger isn't afraid to dry something different adds even more fuel to the fire. At least he isn't one of those guys who draws the same thing over and over, just different sizes.

He has quite a few boats that are simply stunning, Moccassin, for example. You should also look up the lapstrake Chebacco, Blackbird, TarTar, and Hope, just to name a few really lovely little boats from Bolger's board.

He's not God, he's simply more interesting and accessible than most designers. That's why the popularity.

Disclaimer: I've built one Bolger boat and have plans for a couple of others.

[openboater]

Form Follow's Function

what you need a boat to do is the function.

what it looks like is the form.

so you decide what a boat needs to do FIRST and THEN design one that fills that niche.

when you have 700 designs, there is a lot to talk about.

too many designers draw a pretty boat and tell the owner suck it up. their motto is 'function follows form'. lousy milage, lousy seakeeping, blah,blahblah.

[lagspiller]

Let me ask the question this way...
Will any Bolger boats still be around in 100 years?

Why don't we have the means to produce and cherish that kind of boat any longer. Why does everything have to be fast food and throw-away.

Before we all got so rich that we can't afford anything, in days of old when times were really hard, great works were created and appreciated. Today the in trend is to place utilitarianism on the alter we are told to bow before. If boats could be made of cardboard, that would be praised. Once we made cathredrals. Now we make hamburgers.

There should also be room for quality - both in workmanship and materials.

I'm happy that Instant boats and Square boats and what-ever incarnation of other throw-away exists. But I dearly wish that everything didn't have to be plywood.

Once, lest-boats (sorry, I don't know the correct term.... wooden boats made over a form) like the Knarr were the inexpensive answer to quality boats. Square Meters were designed as the keel boat for everyman. I am sure the list could be added to almost indefinately by people on this forum.

What do we have today? What will we hand down to our great grand children? Is there really nothing going on with in a normal persons grasp other than plastic and plywood???

This is not meant as a rant against Bolger - but where are the other designers? Why isn't WB forum championing THEIR cause?

[Hwyl]

Let me ask the question this way...
Will any Bolger boats still be around in 100 years?

I think this one might be, she's concrete and a movie star.

[Lewisboats]

I',m sure the designers are there...they just aren't being asked to design what you are looking to see. The materials are so rare nowadays, and so expensive, and so unlikely to be renewed that other materials are being explored...also changing the design process. If you want to see one of the classics being built today then shuffle over to a noted Architect and Plop down the 6 figures to get the ball rolling... Please post pictures... I would love to follow the progress while I build what I can afford (out of plywood). Oh...and the old classics you see still floating have probably only 20-40% of the original material still in them.

Steve

[John Bell]

lagspiller, they are not ALL boxes....


Hope


Harbinger


Moccasin


Chebacco


Schooner

[Lewisboats]

"In days of old when things were really hard..." That's when the boats that you see were built to work and earn their living and make money for their owners (barring the yachts and racers of the day). The comparison today is the super tanker and the container ship...but also the cruise ship. Today...as in yesteryear these ships have a useful life then they are expected to be scrapped, melted and made into something else. Should someone fall in love with one and endevor to rebuild/refresh/renew it at the end of it's moneymaking life then I would expect to see it viewed as classic in a hundred years or so.

Steve

[TomF]

Y'know? We have quite a Welsford following on the board too. And Iain Oughtred - both noted for the grace of their designs.

I agree there are lots more we could likely be championing. Never understood, for instance, why Tom MacNaughton's stuff - much of it designed for strip building - doesn't get much play here. Nigel Irons designs things to drool over, but we don't drool over them half enough. Ted Brewer too, though I like Irons' stuff better by a stretch.

But Bolger? Well, he's not only got a big body of work, but he's written about it. So it's not just lines and boats, but ideas about lines and boats.

t.

[lagspiller]

Not quite. (edit to add - directed at Lewisboats' thoughts on merchant boats) There were work boats and there were racing boats. Both types were built to last. There were probably also boxes with tarred ends paddled with sticks, but they were not built to last. And didn't.

While we are on the subject of economy...
Old boats like my sq.meter were specifically built as the 'aquirable racing boat' within a normal man's means. They were the inexpensive answer to the typical racing boat of similar size in their day. Light, strong and long lived.
From what I read, they are now not exactly cheap. And prices are rising.
In other words, not a bad investment at all. Quality materials and workmanship cost more than a tarred box, but it seems to have paid off in the long run.

I also know from experience that quality used fiberglass boats actually increase in value over some years - I have several friends that have bought larger, new boats with the PROFITS gained by buying, using and selling fiberglass boats at market price. My sq.meter has probably close to doubled in worth since I bought it 15 years ago. It is 81 years old.

I can also show you smaller workboats made in far simpler pines and furs that are older. And increasing in value for every passing year.

It will be interesting to see if a plywood boat can achieve the same - both in age and in increased value.
THAT is what I call economy.

(edit to add - yes, those are nice Bolger boats. But still, I wish there was more space devoted to the REST of the designers. TomF... why not start a WBF fan club for some of THOSE guys. Tell us more. I'm tired of Bolger, Bolger, Bolger.)

[Paul Pless]

It will be interesting to see if a plywood boat can achieve the same - both in age and in increased value.

Here's one that's well on her way: Her name is Stormvogel, she was built of Bruynzeel mahogany plywood for the founder and owner of Bruynzeel. You may know her better as the boat from the movie Dead Calm.

[John Bell]

But still, I wish there was more space devoted to the REST of the designers. TomF... why not start a WBF fan club for some of THOSE guys. Tell us more. I'm tired of Bolger, Bolger, Bolger.

Where are you seeing that on WBF? There are a few Bolger-centric groups around, but here isn't that place.

In addition to Tom's list, Paul Gartside gets a lot positive discussion here.

[Thorne]

Ditto, the basis of the rant passes right over my head -- these forums have probably 5x the posts on Gartside, Oughtred, Welsford, and other designers both living and dead.

Bolger gets a lot more press in the Yahoo groups and Internet, largely because of the accessibility of the designs and materials, plus the fact that he has written a lot about his designs and ideas -- "Boats with an open mind" for example.

[lagspiller]

Where?

Bolger 266
Herreshoff 392
Oughtred 248
Welsford 79
MacNaughton 19
Brewer 48
Irons 118

From a quick WBFsearch.
Bolger pops up most often in the title of a topic.
Bolger turns up most often in Designs / Plans
Herreshoff is most often mentioned in 'repairs'.
Oughtred is usually mentioned somewhere in a discussion. I was surprised at how often he is mentioned. Very positive.
And Irons is probably due to the word iron.

I don't think I am imagining things.

[Paul Pless]

lagspiller, I think your probably right, Bolger is mentioned the most on this forum, but he's also probably the designer, that's currently alive and still practicing naval architecture, with the most prolific portfolio of designs appropriate for the home builder, and he has written widely about his designs.

Also didn't he receive some of his formal and informal education from both Chappelle and LFH???

[willmarsh3]

I found Phil Bolger's book "Boats with an Open Mind" one of the most fascinating books on boat construction out there simply for the considerable breadth of designs presented. I have considered building his St. Valerie. She seems to have good room down below as well as on deck for a boat of her size.

[Russ Manheimer]

Lagspiller,

Here's my defense of Bolger:

She's a nicely executed Spartina.

Russ

Ps: Thanks ByronB for your terrific boat

[JimD]

Perhaps there has been a little spike in interest in Bolger around here lately but not that much of one. Seems to me entire years have gone by where he barely gets a mention and then its usually a rerisive comment about his box boats. Personally I like Bolger. I wish I'd been around in the very early days when he even posted to the forum. You go, Phil!

[lagspiller]

Mr.Pless, you are probably right on all counts.

I still wish there was more room for more wooden boat designers of the older design principle. The kind that says it may cost a bit more now, but in the long run...

Someone said earlier something about form and function. His point was that Bolger designs for function and form follows after. I can see that. But is that unusual??? No. Not in the least.

Older designs, tried and true concepts, have been honed over many, many years. They represent a long line of design and seamanship. They too have taken their form from function. They are NOT less functional despite being beautiful. Bolger too has made some beautiful, classic designs. So it is possible. Which only proves that the focus on cheap and dirty isn't really necessary.

Quality materials are not difficult to obtain. It does not have to involve environmentally deplorable harvest. It should not be embarassing to go for more investment in time and effort - to create something lasting and timeless.

I wish both Wooden Boat and the forum gave even more space and attention to the many designs and designers. It is limiting when any single designer gets too much attention. I am sure they exist - and I would like to read about them. I would also like to give their designs more PR - that is the only way they will be built... if we talk about them. Get excited about new wooden boats in something other than plywood.

Let's face it. Plywood is for the congregation. If real wooden designs are going to reach a greater public, they are going to have to get noticed first.

But... it is late here. You will have to carry on without me this evening - if there is anything left to be said and any dare say it.

[openboater]

Lagspiller, please don't consider square as bad. As I recall, the homely little WWII Jeep is on the list of the 10 most beautiful designs of anything, not just auto's but anything. The jeep sure could be described as square and slab sided. And the Jeep is the only model that still resembles it roots after 60 years.

As to 'plywood is for the congregation' , if memory serve me right, Frank Loyd Wright pioneered Plywood furniture. When I visited his 'falling water' house, the plywood furniture designs he created were beautiful.

[John Meachen]

I greatly enjoy reading Phil Bolger's articles and his rational explanations for the occasionally challenging appearance of the resulting boats.I would like to read more of the words of William Garden as his books on boat design have shown some less unusual boats and a gift for good writing.He also has such a wealth of experience that his opinions can be taken as gospel.I would be delighted if he could be persuaded to write a third volume of the series "yacht designs" and I would recommend the earlier books of the series to anybody with an interest in boat design.

[rbgarr]

I think plenty of designers have been mentioned and discussed here on the WBF, i.e., William Garden, Philip Rhodes, Sam Crocker, Laurent Giles, Jay Benford, Olin Stephens, Joel White, Harry Bryan and so on. Fewer people aspire (practically) to build or own boats by those designers, and not many of them have written as much about boats as Bolger, so there's less discussion of their boats in total. I don't think that mere quantity of ink equates to importance or being valued for skills and creative talent.

[Russ Manheimer]

Lagspiller,

I wish I knew of a more traditional designer still working; especially Scandinavian. Aage Nielsen, Utzon and the like are yacht designers. The boats you wish to see (and which I love), have more of a work boat heritage. Howard Chappelle did this for American boats. I'd love to find someone who has designs and construction methods similar to Sjogin.



I'm still searching for her designer. If you know of anyone, past or present that may serve, please let me know.

Good thread. One final Bolger note. In one of his early books he posited that there ought to be a tax credit for owning, and especially using a lovely boat; the rational that such a craft benefited the general local scene and that such a benefit should be recognized. Anyone remember which book? I'm still waiting for my tax credit.

Best,

Russ

[Paul Pless]

Another observation: just about every open question seeking suggestions regarding 'instant type' plyboats will have its share of postings suggesting a mor traditional approach or design, and vice versa.

[donald branscom]

Excuse me for swearing in church, but what is this fascination with Bolger? The designs are probably effective in that they are easier to build than most boats, and they float. Materials and....

It's a free country sir.

[Boatmik]

Let me ask the question this way...
Will any Bolger boats still be around in 100 years?

This is not meant as a rant against Bolger - but where are the other designers? Why isn't WB forum championing THEIR cause?

Howdy, I think your second sentence answers the first.

WB forum is not a single THING capable of making choices as to what it will champion.

It simply reflects what the individuals are interested in or like.

Lots of people like, love, hate his boats. Perhaps even more have actually built one or know someone who has.

They are always talking points - like you don't particularly like them, but here you are.

So will Bolgers be sold in 2106? Of course - they engage people's enthusiasm very effectively.

MIK

[Paul Pless]

Lagspiller, LOL!!! this thread is a pretty good nonpolitical troll.
Almost as good as the one John B did about the schooner Waione a few years back.

[Stu Fyfe]

Not sure if Redwing will be around in 100 years, but I'm sure the design will last a long time in Different Boats.

[Brian Palmer]

I built a Bolger Elegant Punt in 1976 when I was 14 and sold it a few years later. As far as I know, it is still around, 30 years later.

-- Brian

[Pierre LaRochelle]

To understand the importance of square boats is to understand the imperishable quiet at the heart of form.

Ahem! PL

[Russ Manheimer]

Pierre,

I Googled your quote and think its apt. Some of Bolger's efforts such as his Tortoise aim to get at the essence of what is needed for a boat. Functional, quirky and just useful enough to be appreciated. The designer commented something to the effect that the Tortoise was just ugly enough to avoid getting stolen. True enough on both counts.

Russ

[rbgarr]

One final Bolger note. In one of his early books he posited that there ought to be a tax credit for owning, and especially using a lovely boat; the rational that such a craft benefited the general local scene and that such a benefit should be recognized. Anyone remember which book?

IIRC, he wrote that in 'Small Boats'.

[Russ Manheimer]

Thanks Dave. That notion has always made me smile.

Russ

[Lucky Luke]

One final Bolger note. In one of his early books he posited that there ought to be a tax credit for owning, and especially using a lovely boat; the rational that such a craft benefited the general local scene and that such a benefit should be recognized.
Russ

...and, in the other hand, what about an extra tax for such beauties:

[Pierre LaRochelle]

I suppose we all know a women so lovely in her bones...but who sighs from far away?

....................oops too much Roethke to be of use..sorry!

PL

[BrianY]

One thing to consider regarding the number of Bolger references: When someone writes in to the forum and says "I'm a newbie boat builder looking to build a boat for ...." the answers almost inevitably include a reference to a Bolger boat. Why? Because he has intentionally designed many boats to be built by novice boat builders with very little woodworking skills, money and time. Most of these people are not concerned with tradition, longevity of the boat beyond a few years (10 - 20 ? ) or in creating a work of art. They want to be out on the water as quickly as possible. Now, I greatly admire Welsford and Oughtred and many other designers living today, but I don't think that they design with the same kind of builder in mind (not that their designs can't be built by first timers).

Analogy: First time car buyer with a limited buget looking for a car to get him to and from work. I don't think anyone would suggest a Mercedes or a BMW....

As for the "affordable" classics you write of - well, maybe you can afford to purchase and maintain one but there are a lot of folks that can't. Nor do they want to.

To many, boats are primarily utilitarian objects to be used for recreaction. Low maintenance, ease of construction, transport and operation take higher priority over aesthetics or ultimate longevity. Many of Bolger's boats fit these criteria very well. Again, I don't think that there are many other designers out there (Jim Michalak is one) specifically targeting this kind of market.

To put it simply, it's not that everyone is in love with Bolger's designs and they choose to ignore everyone else. It's that his designs fit the requirements of many of the people posting on this forum - and many first or second time builders all around the world. In that sense, he should be admired for fitting his intended market so perfectly.

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Absolultely!
If you enjoy floating on water, is it the vessel or the floating that matters?

PL.......a Bolgerite since 1979

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Just a late thought and response to an earlier posting on this matter.
One should be leary of going to sea on a hundred year old vessel!

PL

[Boatmik]

...and, in the other hand, what about an extra tax for such beauties:

I've taken th other one out because I didn't like it either - but the Micro is an epitome of a modest little crusing boat.

I love the way it looks and wish I had enough wisdom to design it at the time!!!

In a hundred years people will still know what a Micro is.

Michael

[lagspiller]

Leary of going to sea on a hundred year of vessel... maybe.
Leary of going to sea on a fifteen year old plywood vessel. Probably.
There will of course be exceptions to the rule - but the time scale is probably not far off standard deviation.

Actually, the discussion went rather well. , Although some took is as "Bolger-hater" trys to stir up trouble, it was never meant to be a Bolger-bash. I still think there must be other designers who deserve more attention - and that attention would ultimately result in a greater diversity of designs to choose between.

Yes, home builders and new boaters need something more attainable than "BMW & Mercedes". But the motoring world offers much more between that class and Lada (which has long been pure function before form - with the occasional exception). The biggest activity is the 'middle class' designs in cars. It would be nice to see the same diversity and activity in middle class boat design.

What was it Henry Ford said? Every color you want - as long as it is black.

[Foster Price]

Hmm - nice to bring Henry into it at this stage, because if I recall, Henrys model T is alledgedly more economical than any current American made car- and thats right at the heart of ALL Boger designs - economy, honesty of purpose and functionality (unless its one of his "failures" but he is careful to acknowlege those, much unlike auto makers !!)

Cheers - Foster

[TomF]

I'll agree with an observation made earlier - a lot of Bolger boats were designed to be simple enough for amateurs to build and not be overwhelmed. When the project also resulted in a carefully thought out, functional boat ... a convert was born.

I love traditional boats more, as you seem to Lagspiller. My night time drooling for small craft comes for Chapelle's drawings of workboats, and John Gardner's marvelous books. On a forum like this, devoted largely to folks with a hope of home building, some of the more esoteric forms or simply some of the really big boats just won't be discussed too much. I know I can't compete with Covey Island Boatworks to build Nigel Irons designs ... though I salivate at the very idea. Nor could I ever hope to afford one.

This place is largely about the art of the possible. And for many of us, what's possible is what's been designed to be possible and affordable.

[Russ Manheimer]

Luck Luke,

Probably a good idea to tax ugly boats but who gets to judge them?

Russ

[Keith Wilson]

Luke, I'm pretty sure the Long Micro in the picture is Julia May. I sailed on her on Lake Waconia years ago, on a day when it was blowing hard enough to pull out one of the chainplates on my Town Class. (If I hadn't come about in time I'd have lost the mast). Under those extremely lively conditions the Micro was very pleasant to sail: dry, comfortable, and reasonably fast, and she actually looks pretty good on the water. The other one is definitely ugly, but nothing near as bad as your average Bayliner

A couple of points about Bolger Boxes:
- Most of his designs aren't like that at all; he's quite capable of turning out a classically beautiful boat if he wants.
- Not even all his simple "instant boat" designs are boxes; look here:
http://www.instantboats.com/gypsy.htm
- Almost all of the boxes work very well indeed for their intended purpose. A few haven't: Otter II, for example. Unlike any other designer I know of. Bolger is more than willing to discuss his mistakes and the reasons for them in detail.
- They are intended as exercises in simplification and pure function, with no concessions to tradition and few to aesthetics. If you don't want that, build another boat.
- Occasionally, precisely because he's not afraid to try new ideas, he'll hit on something absolutely original. The Birdwatcher-style cabin is truly brilliant.
- I don't want to get into the old traditional vs. modern construction argument,but the contention that plywood boats only last 15 years is utter nonsense. I sailed for five years on San Francisco Bay out of Berkeley in a 35-year-old plywood boat that was as sound as the day she was built. With reasonable care she could last a century easily. Yes, there are crappy plywood boats, shoddily built out of bad materials. There are (well, mostly were) crappy traditionally-built boats as well; most of them are long gone.

Henry's model T is allegedly more economical than any current American made car . .

It's not. It gets its low fuel consumption through very low power and speed. A current Ford Focus beats it resoundingly on fuel economy, not to mention performance, handling, comfort, safety, reliability, and emissions. We've learned a few things in the last 80 years.

Now THIS is ugly:

[Sam F]

Luck Luke,

Probably a good idea to tax ugly boats but who gets to judge them?

Russ

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and I've had some pretty ugly equipment (A truck for instance) that I grew to think of a quite attractive 'cause handsome is as handsome does.

One thing that's a bit urksome - not that I've quite figured out why...
Is that if you build something with your own hands and pay taxes on every bit of material that goes into it and when you're done, you get to pay a personal property tax on it forever.

[Uncle Duke]

lagspiller - out of curiousity, what is your definition of 'plywood'? Does that include the Luders 'hot-molded' boats? The slightly more modern 'cold-molded' boats? Or only sheet plywood?

[lagspiller]

Hmmm

[TomF]

Nigel Irens ... the "Westernman" he designed for Tom Cunliffe based on pilot cutters...

And here's a shot of the "Maggie B," a "fusion schooner" he designed for the owner of Covey Island Boatworks. MMD's familiar with this boat, IIRC. Droooooool.