ID this 20' canoe stern boat?

[Thorne]

I'm risking divorce or murder from the woife, but can't resist wondering what this boat is. (drool)

Any ideas as to designer, model, or whatever? Probably ply, daughter has no idea and/or won't say what the materials are, accessories, etc.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/222430572.html

[almeyer]

Thorne,
There are a lot of folks more knowledgeable than I, but could this be it?


web site: http://www.sredmond.com/index_boat.htm

[garland reese]

Looks like a pretty darn nice job on a Redmond Elver........ Elver's were developed for strip planking (not the strip sheathed kind). Bottom is pretty much dead flat. That is a very nice example from the pictures. They aren't heavy, and they are simple.
I agree with almeyer......... Sure looks like Elver.

[Woxbox]

Gotta be ... and appears to be a very nicely executed one, too. I think it was WoodenBoat that did a write up on this design way back when. It did get some attention in the boating press when it was introduced.

[willmarsh3]

Yep, definitely an Elver. And she appears to be a nice one at that. Also I have seen this boat named "Jennie Wren" somewhere else on the web when looking for pictures of this design. But I didn't bookmark it and I am now unable to locate that website.

[Thorne]

Thanks - yes, she has to be an Elver.

Duckworks has a design for a 21' canoe yawl named Jenny Wren, but that boat has a keel and weighs over 5000 lbs. Looks similar above the waterline, though...

[willmarsh3]

Here's where I saw these pictures of "Jennie Wren" on the web:

http://www.sonic.net/~tzabaco/photo.htm

Will.

[JimD]

I got a nagging question about the Elver if I may use this thread to post it. What's the point of the flat plywood bottom on a boat like this? I mean look at the labour of love that went into building it. Somebody pulled all the stops and spared no expense. It makes about as much sense as taking a Herreshoff and cutting it off at the waterline in order to glue a sheet of plywood where the rest of the boat should go. No copping out with lame answers such as 'shoal draft' and 'ease of construction.' Build a slab sided sharpie if that's what you want.

PS - Jenny Wren is a Weston Farmer design, yes?

[Bill Childs]

Thorne,

I'm almost certain that this Elver is another boat built by north Bay Area boat builder Ed Foster. I sailed it with Ed years ago on Tomales Bay - looks real familiar and the name sounds right.

Bill

[Thorne]

I may need the name of a good divorce attourney here if all this keeps up -=- darn it! I wanted everyone to tell me the boat was junk....oh well.

After seeing Eds boats last weekend at Tomales Bay, I'm in a weakened state -- he does *lovely* work! If Jenny Wren is anything similar (and I'm sure she is), I'll have to take a look at her soon, and then good-bye $$$.

Bill - take a look at Will's link, you might even be in the photo.

;0 )

Jim - The design is early 80's, targeted for the home builder, and does allow beaching and easy launching. Its a Steve Redmond design, see Al's post above in this thread.

Will - Really like your site, looks like you are actively campainging your Elver. On the trolling motor -- do you feel you just need more batteries, a larger motor, or do you think the current setup is OK? Sounds like you may not have enough 'oomph' motor-wise from some of your handling notes.

I have a 48# Minn Kota and was wondering if that would be enough for an Elver under windy conditions...

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Love the boat hate the rig

[willmarsh3]

Will - Really like your site, looks like you are actively campainging your Elver. On the trolling motor -- do you feel you just need more batteries, a larger motor, or do you think the current setup is OK? Sounds like you may not have enough 'oomph' motor-wise from some of your handling notes.

I have a 48# Minn Kota and was wondering if that would be enough for an Elver under windy conditions...

Not really actively campaigning the design though it seems like it. I like the simplicity embodied in the design - this sounds philosophical until you own a boat and get frustrated dealing with complications.

As for the trolling motor 49# is probably not enough different from 55# to tell much difference. That will be sufficient to push the Elver through a stiff wind, say 20kts or so. I don't know how well that will work in chop though.

As for performance, I currently run the #55 lb motor with one battery. It draws about 55 amps at full power. The problems with this setup are that this motor uses speed coils and the battery can't seem to put out at the full 55 amp over its whole period of discharge to 50% so it runs slower.
To fix this I plan to upgrade to an 80# saltwater motor such as the Riptide series and add a second deep cycle battery. This motor uses pulse width modulation instead of speed coils so very little energy is wasted. Also the batteries will not have to work as hard. The 80# is for where I need a boost. Normally I would operate it at around 40# or so.
I estimate the useful range will be extended by a factor of 3 or 4 with the new setup.

Yes the sprit rig is unconventional and can take some getting used to but I like it.

[Woxbox]

Will,
I recall studying this design carefully when it was introduced. I was put off by the flat bottom too - not because of the look or idea of it, but the notion that I wouldn't expect the boat to handle higher winds very well. Doesn't it develop a huge weather helm and refuse to point in, say, 20 knots and up?
Bolger uses a similar shape in the Dovekie, but with a less extreme length to beam ratio. An owner of a Dovekie once told me that boat sails "like a slug."
What's your experience?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Hey that looks like a phenomenal boat for $4,000 I would run and get it.

[Thorne]

Joe, you are NOT helping things here!

;0 )

Hey look, I could get a canoe sloop twice as big for the same money, only sunk once - (wink wink)
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/222017080.html


Seriously, I will see what the wife says about the Elver -- she wants to limit the boats to two at at time, meaning I'd have to sell my lovely dory if I bought this one...hmmm.

[Woxbox]

Hold on --- the Elver would need a tender. You need to keep that dory for safety, right?

[Brian Palmer]

I bought a used Elver three summers ago. It was a good deal, we enjoy sailing it, and it is easy to launch, rig, and tow. It sails surpisingly well becuase it is pretty light for its size, unless you load it down with a bunch of stuff and extra wood work and hardware, plumbing, etc. I won't try to explain or defend the flat bottom, except that it provides a lot of stability without added ballast. The flaired sides provide a lot of secondary stability. It feels like a bigger boat with the wife and two kids.

As they say, it is what it is, and I'm happy with mine. If I had someplace other than large lakes to sail and a slip or mooring, I'd probably sail something else, but that isn't the case.

-- Brian

[willmarsh3]

The flat bottom gives phenomenal form stability - almost as much as a catamaran. She'll heal about 10 degrees or so and that's about it. She points well if the sails are trimmed right - but that goes for any boat. Also the flat bottom makes her really easy to trailer. Also the lack of complicated hardware and plumbing means less time and expense doing boat projects.

I'd say grab this boat. She appears to be well built. Also if this boat is built by a professional boat builder as Bill Childs says then she'd be a bargain indeed. But of course, get a survey.

[Brian Palmer]

Thorne,

My boat is about 20 years old (more or less the same as this one) and the biggest problem area I found was in the inner and outer keelson that joins the two sides of the plywood bottom. My boat was amateur built, so this one you're considering may not have the same issues.

The builder of my boat attached the mast step to the keel using steel drifts and these worked loose and allowed water to enter into the plywood and inner keel under the maststep. I had to pull out the mast step, the forward end of the inner keel, and dig out the rotten plywood. I fitted a dutchman into the plywood and replaced the forward end of the inner keel and the mast step. Used proper bronze bolts and plenty of bedding compound this time too, after sealing all mating surfaces with epoxy.

I've got the same issue in the keel/bottom joint in the cockpit that I will tackle this winter: remove the inner keel, cleanout any rotten ply, replace with a dutchman and a new inner keel with bolts to tie the outer keel, ply bottom, and inner keel together. The area around the centerboard trunk is fine (thankfully!).

If you look at this boat, get a good look underneath and be sure the outer keel is not pulling away from the ply bottom anywhere. It is a 1 x 12 and unless it was a really nice quarter-sawn piece of wood, it might be hard to keep it lying flat against the ply bottom without cupping, if the builder used only screws and glue and no bolts. Not impossible to fix if it is, but something to look for.

-- Brian

[Steve Redmond]

It's been a while since I've looked at the WB forum so forgive this late response --

Can't help answering the flat bottom comments, since the reason behind it may be of interest to design-oriented folks.

If you add rocker to an extremely light boat like Elver, or worse, rocker and round sections below the bilge, you must increase the fairbody depth to have her sit on her lines at the same displacement.

In simpler terms, everything you pull up must be compensated by another bulge that is pushed down to maintain the same volume. What this does is increase the body draft (by about double).

Then to get enough board-up lateral tracking stability beneath the body, you need to increase the depth of the skeg. You have now increased also the weight of materials used. You've also brought the bottom of the bow up so that it will likely slap at anchor.

You've also depleted the form stability, since the hull is now barrel shaped with the metacenter approaching the center of gravity. Probably you will need to reduce sail area and/or try to add enough ballast to compensate. But unfortunately ballast increases the displacement of the boat, necessitating a further change in the lines to adjust.

The new ballast unfortunately doesn't have much effect until heeled , and now makes the boat sinkable. That being a worry, you probably need to add enough ballast to make her self righting in the form of a more or less deep keel, and a self bailing cockpit. The displacement has now doubled or tripled, trailering is probably difficult with a conventional low trailer and standard automobile.

Costs, building complexity, and time to build have all now tripled. Sail area has doubled. Rigging complexity and masting requirements have increased as well.

In fact we now have a conventional small cruiser, one of thousands like her, which certainly can give pleasure, but not exactly what I had in mind. The reason I know all this is because I originally thought to design Elver round bilged, but was rapidly pushed by scribbled numbers and succesive alterations into flattening and flattening her, until it made no sense to imitate in her bottom anything other than an ironing board. That being a requirement, there was no reason to make her ugly just because the bottom was flat, so I did my best to avoid that, and stick with my original mental picture of her

Sad to say, I didn't design the flat bottom on purpose. I just couldn't escape it once the displacement was set.

Best Regards,

--Steve

[Kaa]

Watching the a mind of a designer work is always interesting. Thanks for giving us a peek.

It might be illuminating to compare Elver to a very similar boat -- Iain Oughtred's Eun Mara. Both are canoe yawls of similar size, but Eun Mara is round-bilged and ballasted.

LOA: 20' Elver, 19'9" Eun Mara. Same thing, basically.

Beam: 7'3" Elver, 6'8" Eun Mara. Elver is noticeably beamier, which it has to be because of lack of ballast.

Min.draft: 12" Elver, 18" Eun Mara. Here is where Elver's flat bottom gains 4 inches of draft. Both boats are still very-shoal-draft by contemporary measures.

Lightship weight: 900 lbs Elver, 1500 lbs Eun Mara. Here is the cruicial difference -- Eun Mara carries a lead keel insert that weights 500 lbs.

Designed displacement: 1300 lbs Elver, 2200 lbs Eun Mara (Eun Mara's number is from memory, don't have its displacement handy). And that is the other side of the trade-off -- by being heavier and deeper than Elver, Eun Mara can carry more.

Sail plan: 174 sq.f Elver in sprit main and lug mizzen, 240 sq.f. Eun Mara in gaff main and gaff mizzen. Since she's considerably heavier, Eun Mara both needs more sail, and can carry it.

There are other differences, of course (Eun Mara has twin bilge centerboards, for example), but it's interesting to take a look at two similar boats -- two shoal-draft canoe yawls of the same LOD -- and see the different trade-offs that two different designers have made.

Kaa

[JimD]

... I didn't design the flat bottom on purpose. I just couldn't escape it once the displacement was set.

Best Regards,

--Steve

Steve, thanks for dropping by the forum and for providing such a candid explanation of Elver's bottom.

[Thorne]

Thanks for the explaination, Steve.

I certainly wondered why there was no rocker on the bottom, as I'm used to dory designs with lotsa rocker...then again, you probably don't want to launch an Elver through the surf, either.

;0 )

[Brian Palmer]

Thorne,

Is it safe to say that you did not buy this boat?

Did you take a look? Any comments?

-- Brian

[Thorne]

Yes. No. Comments below:

One of the TSCA guys took a look at the same time my wife saw it. Said the deck was checking a bit, no delamination found anywhere but don't know how hard he looked.

Asked the builder who also talked to the TSCA guy, builder said that he'd used fir marine ply and so of couse it was checking on the decks because it wasn't glassed. He had glassed the top of the cabin and so it was looking just fine, no checking.

[willmarsh3]

Steve and Kaa, thanks for the fine posts. It really points out the good reasons why I built an Elver.

Will.

[Thorne]

Ed Foster (the builder and first owner) tells me the boat is occasionally appearing on the Santa Rosa CL. I think the last owner's widow is asking more for it than earlier ($6k?) but suspect she'll come down on the price.

[Jim Goodine]

I have an Elver that was built in New Jersey in 1983. I bought it in 2002 on e-Bay and it was in very rough shape. About 9 or 10 months later I had it repaired and sailing, usually on Champlain. I like the boat and it always gets compliments.
Of course it has limitations. All boats do. Since I often single-hand, dealing with the spritsail is a bit of a challenge sometimes but it can be fun tinkering with the mizzen and centerboard position to get it to self steer.
It is easily trailered and launched, and I can get into some places that other boats can't. I like it. Jim

[Thorne]

The below is the best part of this thread -- a clear and succinct explanation from the designer himself as to why the flat bottom was used in this design. Rarely gets better than this, folks!

It's been a while since I've looked at the WB forum so forgive this late response --

Can't help answering the flat bottom comments, since the reason behind it may be of interest to design-oriented folks.

If you add rocker to an extremely light boat like Elver, or worse, rocker and round sections below the bilge, you must increase the fairbody depth to have her sit on her lines at the same displacement.

In simpler terms, everything you pull up must be compensated by another bulge that is pushed down to maintain the same volume. What this does is increase the body draft (by about double).

Then to get enough board-up lateral tracking stability beneath the body, you need to increase the depth of the skeg. You have now increased also the weight of materials used. You've also brought the bottom of the bow up so that it will likely slap at anchor.

You've also depleted the form stability, since the hull is now barrel shaped with the metacenter approaching the center of gravity. Probably you will need to reduce sail area and/or try to add enough ballast to compensate. But unfortunately ballast increases the displacement of the boat, necessitating a further change in the lines to adjust.

The new ballast unfortunately doesn't have much effect until heeled , and now makes the boat sinkable. That being a worry, you probably need to add enough ballast to make her self righting in the form of a more or less deep keel, and a self bailing cockpit. The displacement has now doubled or tripled, trailering is probably difficult with a conventional low trailer and standard automobile.

Costs, building complexity, and time to build have all now tripled. Sail area has doubled. Rigging complexity and masting requirements have increased as well.

In fact we now have a conventional small cruiser, one of thousands like her, which certainly can give pleasure, but not exactly what I had in mind. The reason I know all this is because I originally thought to design Elver round bilged, but was rapidly pushed by scribbled numbers and succesive alterations into flattening and flattening her, until it made no sense to imitate in her bottom anything other than an ironing board. That being a requirement, there was no reason to make her ugly just because the bottom was flat, so I did my best to avoid that, and stick with my original mental picture of her

Sad to say, I didn't design the flat bottom on purpose. I just couldn't escape it once the displacement was set.

Best Regards,

--Steve

[Thorne]

Spotted it on CL again. Owner is still asking $6500


http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/boa/2013072854.html

[Brian Palmer]

I do not know why they are calling it "one of a kind." There are at least three of them owned by members of this forum (me, Will Marsh, and Jim Goodine), plus many others.

Hope it finds a good home.

Brian

[Thorne]

Brian - that is an improvement over the previous ad - she called it "spritz-rigged"....grin

Ed Foster is a fantastic builder, so I'll second that wish it gets a wonderful new owner.

[huisjen]

Okay, so the bottom is flat as an ironing board due to weight and simplicity considerations. I can't imagine her doing well in either S.F. Bay or Penobscot Bay chop. Trade offs...

Dan

[willmarsh3]

But few other sailboats her size can be as easily launched from a trailer at a regular boat ramp. I had wanted to build mine like "Daniel G" was constructed - without skeg and with a short rudder but the laws of physics and the designer intervened to make that not workable.

[Thorne]

Wanted to bump this thread up, as I've heard from the trustees of the last (and late) owner's estate in Santa Rosa that they want to sell the boat, no idea of price but I'll bet they'll take anything reasonable. No idea of current condition, either, but if you've been yearnin' for an Elver this might be a good move.

[James McMullen]

Post #33 still sums it up for me. This is a niche boat that doesn't fit my own particular niche. But I'm sure that it fits somebody.

[Thorne]

I'll repeat what I said in #29 about #20 -- the best part of this thread is the designer's explanation of how the boat ended up with a dead-flat bottom. Interesting!

We are getting a bit recursive here - reminds me of the old joke about telling jokes by number as everyone had heard 'em so many times there was no need to tell 'em again... ;0 )

[Brian Palmer]

We sold our Elver last summer after sailing if for about 7 seasons and bought a smaller boat (a Drascombe Dabber). I found that I did not have the time right now to do the work it needed (basically a new bottom and skeg), plus the regular maintenance.

We never took ours out on big open water and only sailed it on some moderate sized lakes.

I enjoyed sailing it and its performance was more than some people would expect from a boat with a dead flat bottom. The bottom was fairly narrow (about 5 ft) for its length (16 feet) and the angle at the chine between the bottom and sides was pretty wide open, so there was pretty good water flow arround the chine. Finally the boat was pretty light for its size (about 1200 lbs ready to sail without passengers). All these combined provided pretty good performance. We could generally keep up with cruising keel boats of about the same size, or even a little larger.

The kids miss having all the room of the larger boat, plus the cabin where they could legally take off their PFDs for a bit.

Brian

[Thorne]

The boat is for sale again, $4k on Santa Rosa Craigslist. No idea of the condition, suspect the fir marine ply deck and cabin may need a bit of work, hard to say.


http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/boa/3099002585.html

[Canoeyawl]

Here is the same boat in 1995

[David G]

Twin - you buy that one. I'll bring into play some of the dirt I have on the Dirtsailor... and blackmail him into turning over to me the one he's been hoarding... but not finishing... for the last (what is it now, Dirt... like 15 or 20 years???). Then we'll have twin boats (and will clearly have to have LVD start dressing us alike as well <G>

[Thorne]

Jake - thanks for the photo! I've seen some of them but couldn't find any local copies. Ed does great work.

Twin - thanks for nuttin', buddie. Tell you what, you pry that Elver outa Dirt's hands and we'll talk. It is sure tempting after yesterday's small-open-boat-on-the-Bay fiasco, I'll admit...

[Brian Palmer]

Someone really needs to make an offer and buy that boat.

Has it recently changed hands, or is it the same owner that was trying to sell it in 2006?

Brian

[Thorne]

As is sadly so often the case, the PO was determined to get an unreasonable price for the boat or die trying...and was successful only in doing the latter. His estate agent contacted me, as my website and posts here mentioned the boat, and I put them in contact with the builder Ed Foster. Dunno much more than that. Suchadeal!

[Canoeyawl]

There are rumors of some delamination going on at the deck.

(That sort of thing usually indicates an initial cost savings on materials... I don't know if that is the case here).