Progress in Iraq...NOT

[Norman Bernstein]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15176088/

Does anyone on the face of the earth, with any nuerons in their brain at all, still believe that we're making progress in Iraq?

If not, then where is that thing we used to call 'accountability'?

[Landrith]

I think the idea of splitting Iraq into three or more autonomous zone as Jum Baker's group now proposes will be the solution. Turkey has long opposed it but now we have the goods on Turkey's infiltration of US Gov't agencies and don't care so much what the Turks want. Meanwhile we are backing pro NATO membership for former Soviet states so Turkey doesn't have such cache as are Eastern flank anymore.

I am pretty convinced that sectarian violence was provoked clandestinely by US and British forces to somehow manage Iraq during this interim. I am sure they were smart enough to know how volitile the situation would become for our troops but desired these Iraqis to be fighting each other, not us. Sort of the military extension of Karl Rove's political thought. Seems to have worked. Otherwise Baghdad would resemble Los Angeles being occupied and controlled by one hundred Canadian soldiers. Just about any neighborhood Posse would be strong enough to hop in their cars and eject the Canadians.

On the ground in Iraq we have to hold off change until after the election, then we have a role as hostage to Iran's counterstrike since their missles can't hit the USA.

[uncas]

No, Norman, you keep reminding us.
This is just an observation...

[JimD]

I think the idea of splitting Iraq into three or more autonomous zone as Jum Baker's group now proposes will be the solution.

I would like the zone with the most oil, please.

[uncas]

I guess the only country that has been split, in part do to religion, has been Yugoslavia. I'm not sure how successful that would be if the UN and the troops left. They have been there for what 12 yrs.

And of course since the allies created Iraq after WW1, I can see the creation of three countries out of it now.

I'm sure Iran is drooling over this idea as is Syria, and Turkey...

[ljb5]

Mlke, you make a very passionate argument -- but it hasn't escaped my notice that you're defending a policy of failure.

It's true that some very smart people from both parties considered the question of what would happen in Iraq if we did nothing -- and they came to the conclusion that some action was needed.

It's a very long road from supporting some action to supporting Bush's policy.

Before the war, these smart people said, "If it needs to be done, let's do it -- but let's make sure we do it right."

Doing it right means:

• being open and honest with the U.S. about the need for the war and the justification.
• setting realistic, limited and achievable goals.
• using sufficient troops, properly equipped and sufficient resources to get the job done right.
• seeking and gaining the support of the international community in a meaningful way.
• planning for the occupation.
• having good policies like not torturing, respecting the Geneva conventions.
• doing everything right instead of doing everything wrong.

Basically, there are two problems with Bush's Iraq. The first is that (as we now know) it neved should have happened.

The second is that, even if we agreed that something needed to be done, this isn't the right thing to do.

[Landrith]

Was the Arabic portion of the Middle East connected to 9/11? Not the FBI drug smuggling airplane passenger Arabs who despite claims they were passengers still seem to be alive, I mean the WTC destroying engineers. The guys who were getting paid in tax dollars. Just like the first bombing of the WTC. Wait, the FBI paid a former Egyptian Army officer to rent the van and buy the explosives, so there Egypt is connected. But what Arabic Middle East connections to 9/11 are there except the later oil wars justified by 9/11?

[Norman Bernstein]

No, Norman, you keep reminding us.
This is just an observation...

Around 100 American men and women died in Iraq last month, Jaime, added to the 2700 already dead and tens of thousands wounded.

I don't think their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, or parents would want us to forget... do you?

[Donn]

I don't think their wives, husbands, sons, daughters, or parents would want us to forget... do you?

Do you honestly believe that your reminders are all the separates us from forgetting or remembering?

[Norman Bernstein]

Get a grip, before you require reduced Walmart generic medicines.

I hear a buzzing in my ear... is someone trying to say something?

[Norman Bernstein]

Do you honestly believe that your reminders are all the separates us from forgetting or remembering?

Maybe, maybe not. It's easy to be an idealogue when someone else is doing the fighting and dying. It's utterly impossible to know the grief of the families, though.

[Donn]

It's easy to be an idealogue ..

Who is the idealogue here?

[Norman Bernstein]

Who is the idealogue here?

The ones who think that it's no big deal to have Americans fighting and dying for the sake of trying to force feed our western concept of 'democracy and freedom' down the throats of a people who have demonstrated no interest in having it... like force-feeding a goose to make foie gras.

Those are the idealogues.... they're not hard to spot.

[Norman Bernstein]

But tell us all here, once again, as to date I have received not one reply to my inquiry in the past. Have you ever given any consideration, knowing what the world knew for over ten years, if nothing was done in that region, given all the set of circumstances after 9/11, what if we did nothing with the same set of circumstances????.

Since you demand an answer, I don't mind.

The answer is simple: I don't know.... and neither do you. Your statement makes the unspoken assumption that some catastrophic consequence would have occurred had we not invaded Iraq... and I don't believe that would have been likely, but more importantly, since no one can predict the future, nobody could contend the opposite with any certainty.

I can only look at the current circumstances, and look at the past five years, and draw a conclusion from what's preceeded this point.

Do you have any idea what the enemy in the Islamic world, would have done, after 9/11 if we were still living in denial of the evil that lurked among us while doing nothing?

Once again, I don't know, and neither do you. You're guessing. We don't need to guess, however, at how succesful we've been up to now: it's in the historical record.

No you don't, so you can not say that where we are at now was or is a mistake. All you care to do is whine and complain. Logical people have taken another approach, and you, as just one person on this forum, are unable to deal with it.

Well, if you want to define dissent as 'whining and complaining', then feel free to do so... it's nothing more than a snide disparagement of someone who doesn't agree with you.... the sort of thing you're well known for. I don't disparage you for your beliefs, by the way... I simply think you're wrong... which is hardly an affront.

[LeeG]

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...3658-1,00.html

Posted Friday, Oct. 06, 2006
Written last month, this straightforward account of life in Iraq by a Marine officer was initially sent just to a small group of family and friends. His honest but wry narration and unusually frank dissection of the mission contrasts sharply with the story presented by both sides of the Iraq war debate, the Pentagon spin masters and fierce critics. Perhaps inevitably, the "Letter from Iraq" moved quickly beyond the small group of acquantainaces and hit the inboxes of retired generals, officers in the Pentagon, and staffers on Capitol Hill. TIME's Sally B. Donnelly first received a copy three weeks ago but only this week was able to track down the author and verify the document's authenticity. The author wishes to remain anonymous but has allowed us to publish it here — with a few judicious omissions.

[Norman Bernstein]

Well how can you or anyone else consider where we are at now a failure, Norman?

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can believe where we're at to be a success.. or even progress. If we redefine the goals and criteria for success and victory, then it's possible to describe absolutely anything as a success... even abject failure. I'd be more than happy to hear a list of truly objective criteria which defines success... and see how it matches up with reality.

We just do not know. With life, we all make decisions based on knowns.

Hmmm...perhaps you're referring to Rumsfeld's 'known unknowns, and unknown unknowns'? One thing is for sure... if we obscure every discussion with opaque analogies and metaphors, we can indeed turn a sow's ear into a silk purse.

Your raging each day, along with the masses here, does what to change the climate and issues that we have little control over.

If you're offended by the opinions that I and/or others express here, you've got two choices: 1) respond with your own opinions, or 2) ignore us completely. Either one is OK with all of us.

I do not demand anything. I just wished that the forum would move past politics, and the climate that has engulfed this forum..

Many of us enjoy discussing politics... I most certainly do. If you don't, nobody is forcing you to participate.

As for the climate: as I and others have pointed out before, the climate goes down when some people make disparaging personal attacks for absolutely no other reason than they don't like the opinion expressed. When you said "Get a grip, before you require reduced Walmart generic medicines", I had said not a single thing about you, or your opinons... there was absolutly no provocation whatsoever. And you're complaining about the climate? I think you're actually complaining just about the opinions you don't agree with.

[LeeG]

Well how can you or anyone else consider where we are at now a failure, Norman? We just do not know. With life, we all make decisions based on knowns. .

Mike, you really should read about this stuff. What's unique about Rumsfeld is a style of developing policy that starts with changing "that which is not impossible" into something that is possible. In Cheneys case it's been dubbed the "1% solution". In other words if there's a 1% of something happening you act as though it's closer to 50%. In other words you change improbable to probable WITHOUT DEALING WITH FACTS OR KNOWNS.

NOT BASED ON KNOWNS but based on pure theory.

The kind of stuff where you take a someone who's had four draft deferments hand him a book and he'll think he knows enough to take folks to war.

[WX]

What I find incredulous is that there are still people who believe that Iraq had anything what so ever to do with the WTC.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

"Accountability" is what they say it is.

Moby Nick

[Norman Bernstein]

Thats right, get a grip...

erster, I'd disagree with your latest post... if I could figure out what the hell you're saying. In six paragraphs, there isn't a single comprehensible string of thought written using the English language.

You may be an accomplished boat builder; I have no idea.... however, if I can be permitted one criticism: the English language isn't your strong suit. I'd resolved not to engage with you, considering your incredible hostility to people on a personal basis, due only to their political point of view...

...however, the real reason I can't debate with you is that I can't understand much of anything you're trying to say. Illiteracy isn't much of an endorsement of the credibility of your views. Not that one has to be literate to have an opinion.... you just need ot be literate if you expect anyone to listen to you.

Well, I hope you'll agree with me that we should probably not engage in discussion... actually, it doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not, I think I will disconnect from engaging with ya. No offense intended.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Iraq is a failure. It will continue to be a failure long after anyone here is even vaguely interested in talking about it. More people will die, freedom and democracy will still be a theory, billions more will be spent.

Excuses will be made, chest puffing will continue, politicians will continue to anguish, more people will die. The United States did not learn from Viet Nam, much as many nations do not learn from any war.

The doom of defeat is made that much more poignant by the fact that it continues to repeat itself in situations like these.

[glenallen]

What I find incredulous is that there are still people who believe that Iraq had anything what so ever to do with the WTC.

Me too, WX!
And I'm tired of trying to explain it to them.
I look forward to doing my part in the next elections to jerk the controls out of their grubby little hands.
That's the American way.

[Memphis Mike]

"erster, I'd disagree with your latest post... if I could figure out what the hell you're saying. In six paragraphs, there isn't a single comprehensible string of thought written using the English language."

That's why I told him to go take an English class. Oyster, you don't even know how to punctuate a sentence.

How do you expect people to take you seriously?

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

[glenallen]

"well organized PM campaign"

Ha! Who needs to organize, Erster?
You're already organized against yourself better than we could organize against you.
This is not an "ad hominy" argument!

[JimD]

I guess the only country that has been split, in part do to religion, has been Yugoslavia. ...

Yugoslavia hasn't been split so much as undone. It was one of those artificially created nations in the first place. Splitting it up was more or less a matter of returning it to its former independent states that existed prior to its creation. (Or so I remember from Poli-Sci class in college)

[LeeG]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15177998/site/newsweek/

Oct. 16, 2006 issue - When Iraq's current government was formed last April, after four months of bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis, many voices in America and in Iraq said the next six months would be the crucial testing period. That was a fair expectation. It has now been almost six months, and what we have seen are bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis. Meanwhile, the violence has gotten worse, sectarian tensions have risen steeply and ethnic cleansing is now in full swing. There is really no functioning government south of Kurdistan, only power vacuums that have been filled by factions, militias and strongmen. It is time to call an end to the tests, the six-month trials, the waiting and watching, and to recognize that the Iraqi government has failed. It is also time to face the terrible reality that America's mission in Iraq has substantially failed.


...............

President Bush says that if America leaves Iraq now, the violence will get worse, and terrorists could take control. He's right. But that will be true whenever we leave. "Staying the course" only delays that day of reckoning. To be fair, however, Bush has now defined the only realistic goal left for America's mission in Iraq: not achieving success but limiting failure.

[glenallen]

Hey, no fair getting real here, Mr. Know!
Let's keep it cerebral and political so Erster
won't get confused about what's really going on. OK?

[glenallen]

The well oiled campaign has been here for very long time, glenellen. I addressed the doom and gloom with Norman with issues. Read the posts from Norman about anyone that disagrees with him. This is what these theads end up with, Lee and his reclaimed cut and pastes, and kevin with his rolling out the pictures. Its all a part of a well oiled machine of media propaganda.

Putting that aside for a moment, I'm curious how you can continue to defend the War in Iraq.
I respect your right to your opinions, but I can't imagine how you maintain your opinions.

Do you really believe what you say or is it just a personal battle between you and those members you mentioned?
I know Norman can be judgemental at times but he's sincere. Are you as sincere as he is, or are you merely arguing for the sake of argument?

[LeeG]

Mike, if this is propoganda what do you have to offer? It's called, the news.

The news.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5415638.stm

Republican senator that "bold decisions" will be required on Iraq if progress is not made soon has prompted talk that the White House might be forced into policy changes after the mid-term elections in November.

Among the options is one to divide Iraq up into three parts -- Shia, Sunni and Kurd. But that has some serious drawbacks.


The problem for President George W Bush was illustrated by an example only this last week.

The hope that US troops would be "stood down" as Iraqi troops "stood up" was turned upside down.

It was an Iraqi police unit in Baghdad that was stood down, because of suspicions that it was condoning militia murders.

If the US cannot rely on the Iraqis, then the policy of transferring responsibility has no prospect of success.

Insurgent defeat looks impossible

And if there is no political solution, then the violence will continue.

The president's options are limited.

There are at least four wars going on Iraq - the war by jihadists against US troops, the war by nationalists against US troops, the war by Sunni jihadists against Shias and the war by Shia militias against Sunnis.

[mdh]

What I find incredulous is how many people in this country would vote for the same candidates and policies as Osama , Saddam, Ammagonnagetajob, and Hugo Chavez would if they could.

Also, how many of them believe the WTC was the result of some government conspiracy.

Also, how many of us don't want to see the Iraqi oil fields in the hands of Iran, and thereby, China, and the lengths some will go to keep this from happening.

Also, the look on their faces, and the excuses they make, when after the election they find they are in the minority.

[Landrith]

Don't confuse the election with public sentiment. My party has got that covered.

We are in Iraq, why not be honest about are neo-colonialism. Yes we want the oil. Yes we want to dictacte the policies of Middle Eastern nations and not leave it up to their Islamic fundamentalist populsim.

The problem is even as a colonial power we suck. Oil costs too much here, we never seem to have gotten a benefit of Iraq's production. We never could control the streets of even Baghdad. Finally, the opium is grown in our occupation and is shipped here where its so cheap its a filler for Meth.

Neo con colonialsim is as screwed up as everything else they have done.

[WX]

Erster, you make about as much sense as your sig.
Q1 What do you believe was the reason for going into Iraq?
Q2 What do you believe has actually been achieved in Iraq?

[PeterSibley]

Gee WX ...we're helping them to love us 'cos we're free and they had weapons ,really bad weapons that they forgot to use in the heat of battle but hid somewhere really well.I wonder if we would have invaded if their main export had been cabbages

[WX]

I wonder if we would have invaded if their main export had been cabbages
Natural Gas?

[skuthorp]

I suspect that the Republicans particular reaction to 9/11 was to find the responsible power and then do something about it. That's how us men react. Problem was there was no responsible 'power', just a group of men with an idea and you cant fight a 'war' against an idea. Saudi money financed the op., but going to war against the Saudi's wasn't an option and Saddam's name was on the table any how and he had oil and, well, it seemed a good idea at the time.
Now they, and us too are stuck! We stuck our noses in and the only way out is to 'cut and run' to quote little johnnie (the Aus. PM). Only another admin with a different party could begin to get away with that. Can't see any resolution any time soon.
All this personal abuse is a distraction at a time when there are events in the rest of the world that require attention of men of good will, to quote an old saw. All the emotion and lives and money are essentially being poured down the drain in Iraq. If there is a solution it's not this solution. There's too much pride and ego and prefferencial deals tied up it seems for anyone who could make a differenc to begin too. We may regret what's happening now but I think that we'll look back on this as the easy part.
Can't offer a solution, but we've just made a difficult problem worse. Your kids will have to deal with it I reckon, there's a generation out there that hates the west. Even those that don't will feel justifiable resentment. Maybe if 9/11 had been treated as a problem of international law, though I can understand that US citizens would have had a hard time coping with that. But the particular reaction has been and is a disaster for Iraq, the US, moderate Islam and the world because of the distraction from other potentially bigger problems.
It may be that it will be a turning point in US power, what do you think about that?

[Paul G.]

Talk is cheap, blood is real. You can all thank sweet lady luck that it aint your kid in the pictures

[Chris Coose]

"How do you make an idiot? You take them out of real life and give them a book." Oyster

Read this carefully fellas.

[Norman Bernstein]

"How do you make an idiot? You take them out of real life and give them a book." Oyster

Read this carefully fellas.

I've read that. It's appropriate for a guy who doesn't like 'ad hominy' attacks (is that an attack using grits as a weapon?)

[uncas]

Yugoslavia hasn't been split so much as undone. It was one of those artificially created nations in the first place. JimD

Right..Do you see any similarities to Iraq? Go back in History to the end of WW1. Who determined the boundaries for Iraq? Was any considertaion taken to the ethnic groups in Iraq at that time? The answer is NO!

[LeeG]

More from the well oiled campaign to bring stories that are not in book form.

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

[Chris Coose]

Was any considertaion taken to the ethnic groups in Iraq at that time?

And this time?
Worse because they had the information prior to the occupation and institution of Jeffersonian democracy.

Worse today because the fools who ignored the obvious are determined to stay the course despite all the current evidence.

We are way out of our league.

[Norman Bernstein]

What part of Al Quada in Irag don't you understand?

The part where people claim that there was any meaningful connection between Al Quesda and Iraq, prior to launching this ridiculous war.

Osama Bin Laden hated Sadam Hussein for his secular politics... and Saddam, being the effective dictator he was, didn't provide any meaningful support for Al Queda prior to the war. His boast of offering $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers was, from all we know, mere bluffery, an attempt to curry favor with fundamentalists in other Arab countries... and there's no proof he ever paid it.

Of course, after we invaded, woefully short of the number of troops needed to actually secure the country, we created the perfect 'laboratory' for terrorism... so it's not surprising that the 'fog of war' provided cover for terrorist cells. However, it's still not clear that Al Queda is a significant presence in Iraq... the experts are saying tht Al Queda has fractionalized and can be found now as autonomous cells operating in many different Arab countries.

In short, the attack on Iraq had essentially nothing to do with Al Queda. The attack on Afghanistan certainly did, at least in the short term, and it's one of the few things that Bush did right. However, in the long term, we didn't diffuse Al Queda.. we merely cut the head of the snake off... and it's grown several news ones, since then.

[LeeG]

Erster, if Al Qaeda and the US didn't exist there would still be an insurgency and civil war if Martians came in and destroyed Iraqs military and gov't.

[Chris Coose]

The attack on Afghanistan certainly did, at least in the short term, and it's one of the few things that Bush did right.

I was reading yesterday where the top UN commander in Afganistan was figuring the mess will be back in the hands of the Talis in a year or less.

Invasion X's 2 - 2
Dubbya - 0.

Big goose egg for the dubbya.
Loser. With a large L attached to his forehead.
He couldn't make a hit if the ball was delivered on a pillow.

[uncas]

Norman
Is there anything you like about the US?
We all know what you don't like.

[Norman Bernstein]

Norman
Is there anything you like about the US?
We all know what you don't like.

Yes, Jaime... the fact that I can freely dissent.. and state my honest opinions here without fear of retribution or censorship......

..... except from those who truly hate America... you know, the ones who think dissent equals disloyalty.

[uncas]

Norman.
Well, post something that isn't voicing your dessent once in a while. It would be refreshing. At least in the ratio of 75 ( dessent ) and 25 not.
I suspect that 98% of those here agree with you on Iraq. Ya don't need to pound a dead horse. It's dead! You made your point(s). We agree for the most part. Okay, I agree anyway.

[LeeG]

Jaime, dissent is necessary. You can always do what Oyster advocates, don't read.