Hydraulic Steering Conversion?

[Elcoholic]

My 57-footer (82,000 lbs.) steers like a truck. I'd like to convert to hydraulic steering this winter but I just can't find what I need to do the job without going to the poorhouse. Ideally, I'd like to find a "dead" boat from which to remove all the goodies or find someone who has the parts just laying around. Any suggestions? Thanks.

[donald branscom]

My 57-footer (82,000 lbs.) steers like a truck. I'd like to convert to hydraulic steering this winter but I just can't find what I need to do the job without going to the poorhouse. Ideally, I'd like to find a "dead" boat from which to remove all the goodies or find someone who has the parts just laying around. Any suggestions? Thanks.

I don't think you would find those parts just laying around.
If you did find them would they need rebuilding? Probably,but
would you be able to still get those parts?
What i would do is consult EDSON company who makes all types of steering systems. They have a great catalogue that displays many types of systems.
Many bearing supply houses or places that sell hydraulic hoses and fittings could help you. First I would find out if you have the space in your boat and also the design and selection of componets.

GRAINGER supply sells many of these components and lists the specs.
Don't laugh but the folks building those low rider cars that jump up and down really know about some of the systems and may be able to help you. That is if you want to do and have some mechanical skills.

But before i did all of that I would make sure that the system you have now does not have a problem and maybe the system you have now just needs more mechanical advantage which you could get with a simpler fix. Out in the ocean SIMPLE is good. No matter where you might be. I would check to see if the rudder turns easily when not connected to anything on your next haul out. First step really.

[seo]

For eight years I owned a 63' wooden hulled passenger boat. She was built in 1933, and still had her original cable steering, with a horizontal shaft wheel with a winding drums, lots of turning blocks, and big old wooden tillers back in the steering compartment. It was simple, reliable, and it was paid for. You had to watch out when backing up, because the wheel could get away from you.

The biggest boat I've ever run with this rig was a 105' Southeast Alaska Salmon Tender. The wheel was about five feet in diameter, and you needed every bit of it in confused current conditions.

Hydro-slave in Rockland Maine makes very good power-assisted hydraulic steering. Simple to install. Only problem is that they don't work very well with multiple steering stations. For that, people use Capilano steering, which isn't nearly as strong.

My guess is that the steering you have now is based on old truck steering gear boxes, with long runs of rotating shaft for actuators. This works okay, but every forty years or so you need to do a little maintenance. If you sequentially disconnect and try each element (Wheel shaft, 90º box, shaft carrier bearings, through-bulkhead packing boxes, gear box/pitman box, drag link, rudder upper and lower bearings and stuffing boxes, you may discover that some bearing somewhere is seized up, hasn't been lubricated since 1952.

At the minimum, powered hydraulic steering for your boat is going to cost about $2,000 for the parts. Some assembly required, and it helps if you know what you're doing.

You can do a lot of maintenance on the existing system in that time, which that money.

[Elcoholic]

My system is about as simple as it can be:

Chain sprocket on the steering wheel shaft that shortens/lengthens the 3' of chain that is connected to two LONG pieces of 3/8" cable, each of which makes three 90-degree turns before they reach the rudders. There's not much mechanical advantage with this system and not much room for modification either.

I suppose I know what I need to build a system myself from eclectic components but I was hoping that you guys might generate an epiphany of sorts or at least a hot lead on a dead boat. How about a dead front-end loader? As usual, I more than likely come up with some Rube Goldberg inspired system that gets the job done.

[donald branscom]

My system is about as simple as it can be:

Chain sprocket on the steering wheel shaft that shortens/lengthens the 3' of chain that is connected to two LONG pieces of 3/8" cable, each of which makes three 90-degree turns before they reach the rudders. There's not much mechanical advantage with this system and not much room for modification either.

I suppose I know what I need to build a system myself from eclectic components but I was hoping that you guys might generate an epiphany of sorts or at least a hot lead on a dead boat. How about a dead front-end loader? As usual, I more than likely come up with some Rube Goldberg inspired system that gets the job done.

I almost forgot. National Fisherman sells a lot of steering stuff in their magazine.

[mcdenny]

If you are looking for more mechanical advantage couldn't you use a sprocket with fewer teeth? One turn of wheel would move rudders less.

How about new rudders with some balance area forward of rudder post? Professional boatbuilder just finished a three part article about rudder design telling more than you could ever want to know.

[Elcoholic]

Unfortunately, the existing sprocket is only 4" in diameter. Instaslling a smaller sprocket is not very feasible and would probably cause the wheel to have to make about 10 turns lock to lock. I'm afraid it's either hydraulics of weight training.

[pcford]

There's a kit you can get. Wheel mounts a unit and slave is on your quadrant. Not a big deal.

Frankly, I don't like hydralic steering. And you can't tell where your king spoke is.

No need to reinvent the wheel.
Try fisheriessupply.com

[Ian Marchuk]

Elco , do some digging re.the bigger articulated four wheel drive industrial loaders and big ag tractors . OLDER models had steering wheels that spun a rotary hydraulic pump that controlled hydraulic cylinders . They are entirely self contained and simple as can be , they have an excellant reliability factor and should be pretty inexpensive .
Prairie tractor dismantlers will have lots of them from older machines .Patrick AR-8 rough terrain forklifts had these systems . These were made in the PNW and made to waddle through mud and slop around PNW sawmill yards with huge loads.I cannot remember they name of the pump manufacturer , but it will come to me , and I will post.....Seems to me that this system would fit the bill handsomely....

[Elcoholic]

Thanks, Ian. I agree......that idea is what I had in mind. I just didn't know where to look.

[Gary E]

My system is about as simple as it can be:

Chain sprocket on the steering wheel shaft that shortens/lengthens the 3' of chain that is connected to two LONG pieces of 3/8" cable, each of which makes three 90-degree turns before they reach the rudders. There's not much mechanical advantage with this system and not much room for modification either.

I suppose I know what I need to build a system myself from eclectic components but I was hoping that you guys might generate an epiphany of sorts or at least a hot lead on a dead boat. How about a dead front-end loader? As usual, I more than likely come up with some Rube Goldberg inspired system that gets the job done.

After reading about your system, I think you can use standard automotive parts to install a power steering system.

Let me tell you how we did this to a 30 ft single engine boat with lower steering and a flybridge. The lower steering station was a gearbox that had it's output shaft pointed just about straight down. At the bottom of that shaft near the boats bottom was an arm that moved through about a 90 deg arc, and that arm was pushing or pulling a pipe that was connected to a like arm on the rudder shaft. The bridge wheel was connected to the lower stations gearbox so any rotation of either wheel pushed/pulled the pipe and turned the rudder.

As you said steering is a job, and since he ran offshore in the Atlantic, he was allways turning into and away from waves, so one winter we installed POWER STEERING.

A power steering box from a typical mid 60's car (we did this in 1965 or 66) was selected because it had the output arm much like the lower arm below the lower steering station and a universal joint connection was avaiable on the input side of the gearbox. This replaced the old lower arm and was mounted where the old lower arm used to be. Then the power steering pump was mounted on a fabricated bracket and was belt driven from the front of the engine (pay attn to pump/engine rotation). Connect the hoses and when the engine ran, the steering was done with one finger.

Now, as I read your setup, youi have chain and cable running back to the rudders. I think you could keep the current wheel, chain and cable but instead of the cable pulling on a arm that is connected to the rudders have the cable rotate a disc or maybe a part of a disk and have that disk turn a shaft which would be the input of a automotive power steering gearbox. The output of that gearbox is an arm that would be connected to a pipe that would be connected to the pipe that now connects the 2 rudders together. Your steering ratio would be the number of turns of the wheel to move that gearbox from one end position to the other and could be changed by changing the dia or radius of the input disk or segment.

Then you need to chose one engine to run the pump, and use high pressure hose to run the pressure to the gearbox and a low pressure hose for the return.

If you need belt and suspenders setup on the pump so that either engine would provide hydraulic pressure, mount pumps on both engines and a set of check valves in the high pressure lines and a common pump reservoir could be installed.

[seo]

The thing that keeps bothering me here is that the existing steering gear was adequate for how many years? And now it isn't? What changed? Either you've gotten weaker than previous owners of this class, or there's more resistance in the steering somewhere. Hydraulic non-powered steering will not offer you less steering effort. It's still muscular force that has to move the rudder, and a well-designed and maintained cable arrangment is as efficient as anything.
So it you want more leverage, get a bigger steering wheel (not a smaller sprocket). If you want power assist, get a hydro-slave steering gear that gets its power from a pump belted off the engine, not out of your arms.