Help me decide something.

[bamamick]

On a lighter note, and since I value your opinions, you can help me with something that I have been thinking about for a couple of weeks.

I will be fifty years old in a little less than two years. For my fiftieth birthday I have decided to give myself a present. Let's say that I have $10-15K US to spend. I am either going to buy myself a good solid, fibreglass Dragon or a new or almost new Finn. Which would you suggest?

A little pro and con now. The 'pro' for the Finn is easy. I can get a pretty much brand new Finn with rig for my budgeted price. With the Finn I only have to worry about me. I can practice when I want to. We have a local fleet of good guys to sail with. Any mid-sized car can tow a Finn anywhere. There is a healthy active fleet with nice venues to sail in. O.K., that's enough. Now the 'con'. How long will I actually sail a Finn before it's too much for me? You have to be a very active person to sail these things. Hm. Well, that's about all the con that I can think of.

Now the Dragon. Pros are tougher. It's a Dragon. What more do I have to say? With a 'glass Dragon I should be able to travel without fear of damaging the boat and depending on the boat I should be as competitive as anyone out there. Buying another boat (I would keep 'Rune' to sail at home) would mean that we would always have at least three at our club and I could loan it out for our Midwinters, hopefully to attract new Dragoners in the future. I can sail it until I am too hold to hold the helm, as long as I have a good crew. It's a Dragon. Did I say that it's a Dragon?

Cons. Well, one thing that I didn't mention with the Finn is that I can sell my old boat easily. With the Dragon I would just be adding a boat. This is getting ridiculous. Oh well. Next point. I have to have two crew, not always as easy as it sounds. And those two crew mean a great deal more expense than it would ever cost for the Finn (trips in the Dragon cost the crew very little. I pay for transportation, lodging and food. It's traditional and I think that it's fair. I can't sail without them). Sails are more expensive. I have to borrow a tow truck now when I tow the boat. Unless my dad wants to let me have his truck I am not sure what I would do to tow her. Although we are working hard on fleet building, the nearest true fleet is 1000 miles away.

You guys know my commitment to building the Dragon fleet in the US and Canada. I can get a pretty nice boat from Holland right now for maybe $15K (if they had any pity on me. The asking price is a bit higher). It would really be a shot in the arm for the class if I were to bring a boat like that one to North America and campaigned her every year up north. It would mean less racing than the Finn, less sailing than the Finn, more expense than the Finn, BUT...BUT I would just love it so much.

So, what do you think? Be honest. I can take it. Hell, with the way I have sailed this year I have nothing but humility going for me now anyway.

Thanks.

Mickey Lake

[paladin]

go for it......

[Lew Barrett]

A friend and I have been thinking "Dragon" the last couple of months; a lot of my motivation has come from these pages, but he's already a sailor. Anyway, we reckon we can keep our eyes peeled (we're thinking wood) and if something good comes along, we're there. With that in mind, how could I recommend otherwise?
If you want something practical, get a bicycle

Enjoy her Mick!

[bamamick]

in the Seattle area when you are ready. If you would like I could put out some feelers for you any time you are ready.

Another option would be to bring in a boat from Europe. The British and the Netherlands Dragon Association web pages always have some nice boats. I believe that that boat in Denmark is still for sale at around $10K. Then again there is a boat waiting for an owner in Vancouver (Yachtworld.com). There are options, and I would love to help you find a boat when you want to try it.

As far as the advice goes, I know what I want to do but sort of want to see how other people would think.

Mickey Lake

[WFK]

Well, I have to say that if I was in your shoe's I'd go for the dragon. But then, I spent the better part of 10 years sailing on one. It's a wonderful boat, but unfortunatley the Puget Sound fleet as well as the Fleet out of Vancouver seems to have dwindled away. My boss's first boat was a wood Borreson (sp?), I think #143, and after he sold that, he bought a glass one. We won a lot of PHRF races, but did horrible against other Dragons.........Great times!!

Bill

[bamamick]

I am not sure if you know but I do already own a wooden Dragon (USA 149, a 1963 Borresen). My intention is to buy a 'glass boat for the reasons mentioned, plus when I came home from Cleveland a couple of weeks ago I had a split in one of the frames that wasn't there before, plus some cosmetic damage from when the boat shifted on the trailer in transit. I worry about trailing a plank on frame boat 1000 miles one way and I do intend to travel and race all over North America.

The fleet is still in Vancouver with 7-8 boats at the RVYC. The Puget Sound bunch are trying to reorganize. I have four boats on my list of owners and I have heard of as many as ten. Vern Velez at the Center for Wooden Boats has shown an interest in Dragons and Dragon racing, and we are hoping that the fleet can get together and sail some if not this year then next.

Mickey Lake

[Figment]

Dragon. They're prettier. Better for the soul.

[WFK]

Mickey,
I've been keeping up with your Dragon stories and must say it brings back some great times aboard my boss's boats. Before I'd gone to work for him, my boss had bought the Dragon from A guy named Marty Godsill, an absolute maniac at the helm. Actually, if truth be told, Marty was a divorce lawyer and pretty much convinced him that he needed a project, and Krist, being a boat builder by trade did a beautiful job of restoring her. At the time Marty was pretty much the Dragon guy of Puget Sound and he was doing much the same as you're doing now, trying to promote Dragons and later, when he decided to move on to T-Birds, my boss bought out his entire inventory, a bunch of hardware, a couple mast as well as his glass boat "Fang". We'd go up and sail out of the Royal Van. at Jerico Beach on English Bay, Vancouver. or down on Lake Washington at Leschi. In between, we'd pretty much "mop up" in the local races
Geeze, that was fun stuff...
Good luck,
Bill

[Wild Wassa]

...

[carlg]

Go for the Dragon.

[John B]

You know its the dragon. Just accept it and plan for it .

[Chris.]

Being honest about it, I reckon that given your age (and you are younger than me) you have a better chance of competing to your satisfaction in a Dragon than a Finn.
Don't worry about having two boats - if you are successful in restarting the NA Dragon fleet you will soon find someone else to own it. Failing that, rent it for a season to someone who is interested but not sure if they want to commit.
Don't think about it, just plan for it - your 2007 season could be really good.

Chris.

[bamamick]

that will cause me all the headaches? Of course. I knew it would turn out that way, actually. In my mind I had more or less commited to getting another Dragon while I was driving back from Cleveland. It's still two years away, but if it's still for sale I even know the boat that I will buy. My plan is to see if I can keep it in Cleveland the first summer that I own her and drive up two or three times.

A new Finn would be great, but I am pretty sure that I can get a new, stiffer, wing-mast for my old Finn and do just as well as I would if I were in a new boat. It wouldn't matter if I were in a brand new Devoti with a 100 yard head start, I still wouldn't win too many Finn races. I think that the only thing holding us back in the Dragon is lack of time in the boat.

It is great to see that my sometimes laughable misadventures have brought a little interest to a class that I love so much. Bill, I suppose that you are talking about Krist Martinsen (sic?)? I know that Godsil built Dragons. There is actually one for sale in Toronto right now. Do you know if the moulds are still around? Some of our members (actually it was initiated out of Puerto Rico) approached Bill Abbott about building some hulls. From what I was told he had said that if we could get ten deposits that he could do it, but of course that was before the tragic fire. If you want to go out on a Dragon again I can help you.

Lew, just let me know if I can help. Anyone else?

Wow. I sit here thinking about the possibilities and I get lost in my own little fantasy world. I think that sailing and the sea is good for doing that. If sailing isn't an escape from everything that ties us to this modern world I am not sure that I know what is.

Thanks guys.

Mickey Lake

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

About this point in a thread it is traditional for someone to suggest something slightly different.

Halfway between the two.

[Lew Barrett]

Mickey,
I'm involved in a project for the next two months or so (with my potential partner, by the way) and when that's done we'll get back at you. This would be a long term project for us. Like we need more boats Hey....we do!

[bamamick]

that I can. 'Project' hulls are not as easy to find as you might think, but we will look. One of our fellow forum members has been looking for a 'project' hull for months, but I have a contact in your area who is gathering information and she might be able to help.

As far as this being a long-term project for you and your friend, aren't they all 'long-term projects'?

Mickey Lake

[bob goeckel]

spend 13,000 on you and buy some kid a 2,000 sailboat THAT
WILL make both of you smile.

[Don Z.]

Hey Mickey... I know where you can get an 8 for a really good price...

[Lew Barrett]

Mickey; don't mis-understand Not looking for another project boat. I would prefer to find a good 'un, and pay a fair price for it up front. Just that we have a project underway right now that's absorbing my time, energy....and $$. When that's done, then we can partake in more "distractions."

[bamamick]

You know how to strike at the heart of it, don't you? I buy Lotto tickets every week so you never know, but for me to do that it's not just a matter of buying a boat. The logistics would be a killer, considering that it would have to be kept on Lake Ontario or at the least in Massachusetts or Maine. If I do hit those six numbers though....

Lew, that makes things easier. I know of three nice boats in North America for sale right now and as I said earlier, there are nice wooden boats in western Europe that could be brought over and all well within a decent budget.

Mickey Lake

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Buy another wooden dragon Mick...

[bamamick]

take a look at these boats at www.draken.nl.

The Pedersen and Thuesen hull was almost bought last week by a guy that I correspond with in England. He decided to go for a six year old Petticrows boat that should be competitive at the highest levels, but he had fallen in love with the woodie.

The 1983 Markus Glas hull is the one that I want. One of my friends in Cleveland has an almost identical hull, and as I said in an earlier post, one of our goals is to try and keep the fleet even as far as equipment goes. That boat is outside of my price range, but they may come down, and as I say, it's still two years away anyway. She'll be long gone by then. Maybe something similiar around though.

This Cancrinus Brokerage probably has the best selection of reasonably priced Dragons that I have found. I check their site at least once a week.

Peter, unless I bought a cold-moulded hull I would be defeating the purpose of buying another boat. The reason for the 'glass boat is for the most part the traveling. I don't have a problem with the boat I have now as far as speed or rigging or anything like that. My boat competed in the World's as late as the mid-90's so she is capable. I just want a boat to take out on the road that I don't have to worry so much about. I will keep 'Rune' to have my Viking funeral in (just kidding ). Seriously though, I have several reasons for wanting to do this, none of them practical and all of them just slightly eccentric, but you only get to do this once, and I have already told my kids that there won't be much in the way of inheritence except for wood and fiberglass.

Mickey Lake

[Lew Barrett]

Yikes Mickey! Not a bad one in the lot, but I really like the Stadt

[Paul Pless]

Hey Mickey... I know where you can get an 8 for a really good price...

that's cold

Mickey, you know what though, you keep talking about downsizing that fleet of yours, if you were to actually do that and replace that schooner of yours with an 8 meter you'd at least be able to still cruise.

Also, I've been meaning to make you this offer for a while now, if you'd like, I'd be happy to help you care for that Beetle of yours. Just think, when you come up to Montgomery to visit your daughters, all you'd have to do is give me a call and I'd have her rigged and ready for you at Lake Jordan - just a few minutes from Montgomery.

[Landrith]

I of course say get the Dragon. I think you are wrong about how long you can do Dinghy sailing though. At Jacomo Yacht Club near Kansas City I was surprised to see Windmillers still competing and doing far better than me in their 70's. Nationally or at least in the Midwest Dinghy sailing seems to be a retiree thing. Boat dealers seem sell luxury crusing sailboats to young adults easier than they can sell new Vangaurds.

[capnharv]

We have a Dragon down there for another month or so, then Pip goes back in the shop (some new frames). She'll be back next spring.

Harvey

[Hwyl]

Go with the Finn (just be a contrarian)

[bamamick]

Lew, I thought that you would like those. I have a feeling that the Lallow boat would be the nicest of them all. They are well known for their beauty.

Paul, you wouldn't be doing much cruising on Mobile Bay in an 8mR. Pensacola Bay would be o.k., but I would feel as if I were treating a race horse like a plough horse if you take my meaning. No, she needs to be where she can stretch it out with her sisters, and I couldn't do that. I will stick to the Dragon. About the Beetle, if you would be interested I would be willing to make a deal. She's sitting in my garage doing nothing but holding Star sails. If you can keep her on Lake Martin then she'd probably be a great little cruiser for you. PM me if you want to talk.

Bret, I sent you an e-mail this morning. I actually have owned two Windmills, one when I was a kid and one when I had kids that I wanted to teach to race on a dinghy. I sailed Windmill Midwinters and finished 11th of 28 one year. We were 8th going into the final leg of the final race and tumped. I probably know some of those old guys, though I doubt they'd remember me. Many of our Finn sailors are in their fifties and sixties. It's not a matter of whether a person can or can't do it, it's really a matter of whether or not they want to do it. And I don't plan on selling my Finn. My latest plan is just to get a competitive mast and keep my Vanguard. Keep thinking about Dragons, Bret (sorry, couldn't resist).

Jeff, if I had my way I would be spending $70K on a racing boat, but then I would never sleep another night in my life for the feeling of guilt that I would have. I agree that I have just never seen how some people spend what they do on a hobby, but costs are relative to all of us, and you can spend what you want. Besides that I am a cheapskate. So I guess that it works out for me. As far as going 'round the world, I do my sailing on 6 mile windward/leewards. The days of me trying to sleep on a boat are over. Maybe when I was twenty, but I was offered an opportunity to do the Whitbread long ago before it became nothing but professionals and I said 'no, thank you' then. No one in their right mind would offer now.

Hwyl, what would YOU do? .

Mickey Lake

[Hwyl]

Hwyl, what would YOU do? .

I think I said in another post, I was sitting in the Newport boat show (the plastic one), a girl I raced with in Antigua asked "if you could have any boat here; which would you choose". I surprised myself by answering "The laser, and enough time and money to campaign the oldster circuit".

Then again, I'm somewhat of a prostitute and had just looked over the sistership of my next delivery, and was pondering the logistics and problems.

Can you fit the a Laser on your schooner --now there would be a nice lifestyle.

[bamamick]

Good on ya. I remember when I first was thinking of buying a Finn I asked for and was sent some information by the class. They sent me a copy of the infamous 'Solo' newsletter. In the newsletter there were pictures of Gus Miller (who I believe is in his 70's or at least his late 60's) running a Finn clinic up in Burlington (Noah's home). There were all of these less-than-svelte, grayhaired gentlemen standing around watching intently in the photographs. I took the magazine to my wife and pointed, with a tiny tear beginning to form in the corner of one eye, I pointed and said 'look honey, I have found my tribe'.

I wasn't kidding when I said that one option would have been to get a new Finn. The feeling of freedom you get with sailing a single-hander is fantastic. You leave when you want, you arrive when you want, you eat and drink when you want. Freedom. That's a great representation of what it's like sailing a one-man boat if you have been team-sailing all of your life. It's an attractive option, and like I said, I am not getting rid of my Finn. As you can tell by now (ad nauseum, probably) there is something about the Dragon that first struck me as a kid sailing Lightnings in New Orleans 30 years ago. I have never been able to get out of my system, and through many starts and stops I am close to doing something to really help this class grow a little stronger here in North America. It's not just about the sailing, it's a little more than that.

Mickey Lake

[bamamick]

It just helps to talk about it sometimes. My crew are busy with work projects right now and I have been doing nothing but Finn sailing the last few weeks, but my heart is still set on the Dragon. I guess that proves it.

For anyone interested, I wrote Mr.Cancrinus at that brokerage in Holland. He sent a boat to the States recently (I know about the boat but I am not sure the guy is going to come out and race with us). He just put the whole thing in a 40' container and will find out about the cost and let me know. He also tells me that he has more boats ready to list in an affordable price range of $11-15K US so if anyone is interested please take a look at the site I linked earlier.

Mickey Lake

[bamamick]

the shipping from Holland to New York City is approximately $2500. That is really not bad at all and less than I had been told recently.

Mickey Lake

[paladin]

Mickey...quite procrastinating....dooditt tooditt........

[Bayboat]

The dragon. As much as I hate to say it (being a dyed in the wool wooden boat nut), a 'glass boat will stand highway travel a lot better than a wooden one. And you already have a wooden one for restoring your soul after racing the other one.

[Evan Showell]

A Dragon and, ehr, something else. . . What was the question? Come on Mick. It's a Dragon -- do you even have to ask?

[bamamick]

Evan, my old friend. Good to hear from you.

It IS the Dragon, of course. I have devised another evil plan, and in this one I wind up getting a new mast for my old Finn and then 'finito', the Finn will be as she will be until I move her to someone else. I have talked to the brokerage in Holland a couple of times and when the time comes (still 1.5 years away now) I will have my birthday present put into a large metal box and shipped to New York. It will be an exciting time for me I can tell you.

In the meanwhile I have a regatta to plan down here in Mobile. And as soon as the keel is repaired on 'Rune' some practice sessions to schedule. Got to stay busy (and I also have the Finn Gulf Coast Champs to sail next weekend).

Mickey Lake

[Evan Showell]

Mick -- I do remember hearing once that a Dragon wasn't really good at fitting into a "standard shipping container" whatever that is. You might want to check dimensions and how easy it will be to fit her in a container. The remark may have applied to a Dragon on a trailer. I just don't recall. Best of luck.

[bamamick]

at all with this but I have been assured that a Dragon, rig and all, sitting on her trailer, will fit just fine in a 40' container. There may be some shoring that has to be done but I will let Mr.Cancrinus and his associates take care of that part of it when it comes time. And I will buy insurance!

Mickey Lake

[bamamick]

www.draken.nl. I believe that Mr.Cancrinus listed four new (older) Borresen hulls today, all between 9-15K euros.

If any of you decide to buy a boat I will be your new best friend . No, actually you should mention my name, as I expect to place an order with him one day and maybe I will recieve a discount?

I am in the process of ordering a new chute from Finland and I will let you know how that goes. Really good price.

Mickey Lake

[bamamick]

of a couple of his listings today and they look very nice. Follow the link at www.draken.nl to see the latest.

Mickey Lake