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Thread: 15' to 18' sailing designs

  1. #1
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    Question 15' to 18' sailing designs

    I and a Friend have the project of building a row/sail (maybe small outboard too) boat. Our woodworking experience is best described as "basic +", and I have myself buil a stitch and glue kayak.
    We are open to any building technique and our research for designs have lead us to the following :

    Footloose (Jordan wood boats)
    Green Island 15 (Headland boats)
    Goat Island skiff (Storer)
    John's sharpie (CLC)
    Stickleback dory (Oughtred)
    Skerryskif (Oughtred)
    John's Dory (Ougtred)
    And one Steve Redmond design

    We need a boat for a crew of maximum four adults and seaworthiness is an issue for us.
    I have had a nice feedback on Footloose by someone that build one and we would like to have some on the other designs (or suggestions) so we can make a final building choice. We start building next spring.
    Regards

  2. #2
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    I would eliminate John's Sharpie from the list. Whilst picking up some plywood from Chesapeake Light Craft (CLC), I was told by a CLC employee that the kit had been discontinued because they hadn't sold any and it was a difficult boat to sail in anything more than a light wind.

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    Doug Hylan Chesapeake Crab skiff
    http://www.dhylanboats.com/

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    I considered building Oughtred's Stickleback, and even bought the plans, till someone noted that the dory designs were intended primarily for rowing, and might be a little tender under sail. I ended up building a Penobscot 14 by Arch Davis, which rows and sails very well, and will also handle some fairly lumpy water (why was I foolish enough to take the boat out on a holiday weekend? - too much traffic on the water!). The P14 is a little small for 4 adults, but the P17 should be able to handle that load. It's not a quick boat to build, but the construction method, plans and instructions are beginner-friendly. Several have been built by members on the forum.
    Al
    Al

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    Default

    You may want to consider more specific requirements, which will help us help you decide. Remember that *most* rowing/pulling designs will be narrow aft, whereas sailing and outboard-capable designs have more width aft.

    How many rowers do you expect at once? Any length limitations for your shop? Will it live on a trailer, or spend many months in the water at a time? Do you want the rig to fit in the boat, or will you row with the mast up? Is sailing or rowing the primary function of the boat? Are you going for "pretty and showy wooden boat", or will it be minimalistic design and workboat finish?

    I converted a pulling boat to sail, and was amazed at how stable it is compared to my expectations -- but it is FAR less stable (and roomy) than a pure sailboat of the same length, and can't take an outboard at all.

    Many designs will meet all three requirements, but if you've got a focus on the primary means of propulsion, that may determine what type of boat you give more serious consideration to building.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Default Welsford

    John Welsford's boats have been proved very seaworthy, and his very popular Navigator almost fitting the bill, but it is a bit too short!

    The Pathfinder, an enlarged Navigator, though, should fit your skill well, methinks!

    Tord

    PS http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...nder/index.htm :

    Pathfinder
    by John Welsford
    L O A 5.25 M 17 FT 4 IN
    BEAM 1.95 M 6 FT 5 IN
    WEIGHT (dry, inc. motor) 220 KG 485 LBS
    SAIL AREA 15.1 SQM 162 SQFT

  7. #7
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    Navigator and Pathfinder are sweet designs, thats for sure!

    That brings up another one of the given requirements, "seaworthy". The term is very vague, meaning different things to different folks -- but one thing that most would agree on is that sailboats or small-outboard boats are made more seaworthy by partial decking like Navigator's.

    So if seaworthyness is a critical factor, only consider designs that either require or offer the option of small front and side decks -- plus floatation, of course.

    Last edited by Thorne; 09-06-2006 at 10:53 AM.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  8. #8
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    Default Matrix of boats

    Eric,

    A while back, I created a Word matrix comparing many 15-18 foot boats, including a number of the boats you have mentioned. Send me a private message with your email address and I'll send it to you for your review. I'm not an expert like many on this forum but I've looked at a lot of these boats and the matrix reflects my thoughts.

    In the interim, the two I'm most familiar with are Bluegill by Steve Redmond and the Green Island 15 by Headland Boats.

    I own the plans for Bluegill and plan to build her someday but have not done so yet. I think she is the most simple and easy to build 15 footer around. Redmond also wrote an article about her in WB in 1986, I think issue #78; if you search on the Woodenboat store, you can find the back issue. www.sredmond.com


    I'm building Green Island 18, the big sister to Green Island 15, but the instruction book is for the 15. The 150 page instruction book certainly has a lot more detail for step by step building than the Bluegill's plans do, but the instruction book is not a model of clarity. Also, the GI 15 is a good deal more complex than the Bluegill, with fore and aft decks, airtanks, side seats, ballast tanks and a Bermuda rig. Having said that, she'll be more capable offshore than Bluegill.

    I also have plans for Doug Hylan's crab skiff. She's a little more intimidating in that Hylan has no instructions whatsoever on how to build her. You really need to already know how to build a boat to attempt her. Hylan told me to read Reuel Parker's The Sharpie Book for some general guidance on how to put her together.

    Another boat to consider is Glen-L's 15 footer. Glen-L is a big company that has been around for a while. I suspect most of the bugs in their boats have been worked out over the years (one thing I have learned is that many designers have never actually built their boats and so have flaws or problems that never get corrected). Although the plans do not come with an instruction book, there is a step-by-step pictorial guide on their website that is applicable for most of their boats (although not specific for the 15 footer). They also sell frame kits if you really want to make it easy. Glen-L also publishes a hardcover book on boatbuilding with plywood, which I own and it is a great resource. www.glen-l.com

    Another option is B&B Boat Design's Bay River Skiff or Core Sound (each available in 15 feet or 17 feet). These are stitch and glue boats. B&B has a really good explanation of the difference between the two on their site: www.bandbyatchdesigns.com.

    Finally, Arch Davis's Penobscot 14 has been built by many people on the forum. Arch is well known for providing probably the most comprehensive instruction for beginners. In addition to an instruction book, you can buy a video, and Davis is accessible for questions as well. He also has a 17 foot version of the same basic boat. www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign

    Hope this is helpful, if not overwhelming. Happy to share my matrix with anyone who wants to see it and make comments, since this type of request seems to come up a lot.

    Chris

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    Eric:
    I have had 5 people in my Penobscot 17 during sailing and it handled very well. 4 people is even better. I spent about 9 months building the boat in my spare time, and as said by others, while not easy the project is certainly do-able by anyone with rudimentary woodworking skills. Arch is very accessible, too, as said, and he's very helpful.
    I had mine out in wind that was too much for her once, with no bad result. She is a little tender in wind, but that's easily handled by shifting people to windward. All in all, a great boat for rowing or sailing.

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    Smile Thanks for replies

    Wow, lots of stuff...
    In fact the boat my friend and I need, as we are first time builder, is ease of building with clear instructions and also as we want to use it with our families, a somewhat easy boat to handle.
    As for seaworthiness our intended use is mostly on the Saint-Lawrence river in Quebec-Canada that can change from "simple" river to big sea at its mouth.

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    I'll chip my two penny worth in: Check out Karl Stambaugh's designs at Chesapeake Marine Design (cmdboats.com) -- I think. His CatBird 16 is a simple as you can get and striking to look at. A forumite built one a couple of years back and it is a beautiful boat. Unfortunately, I forget both his name and the boat's name. A search under "Catbird 16" will likely yield positive results. Also, check out his Windward 15 and 17 as well.

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    For simple, with great plans for new builders and support, Arch Davis' PB 17 can't be beat.

    Second choice would be some of John Welsford's designs, also very good support and an active Yahoo group that he responds to daily.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

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    Welsford's designs would seem to fit the paramaters. I also am a fan of B and B yacht's cat ketch rigged Core Sound boats. They are a very fundamental build, and they are reported to be quite forgiving and pretty capable boats. They would handle a crew of adults as well.

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    Default Welsford's Rogue?

    I'm also a fan of the Welsford boats but you might want to look at something a little smaller than Pathfinder or Navigator since they'd be a bit tough to row and even tougher to mount a motor on. Instead how about Rogue?

    Rogue is narrower which means easier to row. Two rowing stations so you'd both get a workout and a transom that would take a motor without modification.

    Rogue would be a tighter fit for 4 but apart from that it looks perfect. Nice looking too.

    Walkabout is also nice...
    Last edited by 5 by 5; 09-07-2006 at 12:16 PM.

  15. #15
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    Question What do you think ?

    Nice ?

    Goat Island skiff
    Length - 15'6" (4.73m)
    Beam - 5ft (1.52m)
    Weight - 125lbs (57kg) - Gaboon (Okoume) Ply
    Sail Area - 85 sq f

    http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/GIS/GISplan.html

  16. #16
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    Goat Island Skiff: I like it. Clean lines, plumb bow, simple rig.

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    Talking Goat Island Skiff

    I had heard of the Goat Island Skiff and searched for it but could not find the designer's website. Good find.

    On a cursery look, it seems similar to the Green Island 15. I note that both designers are Australian and appear to have a thing about islands ... ;-)

    Sort of half-way between the Green Island and Bluegill. More interior stuff than Bluegill but less (and a good deal less weight) than Green Island. Curious to hear from anyone who has bought his instruction book and if it is as comprehensive as he says.

    Note that it has a balanced lug rig. That should be easier and faster to rig than Green Island, and probably more sail area than Bluegill's spritsail. Bluegill is 82 square feet but the Goat Island site says 85 at one point and then 105 in another.

    Let us know if you hear more.

    Chris

  18. #18
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    I have the Goat Island skiff plans. The instruction book is, indeed, very comprehensive. The different numbers for sail area are for different rigs -- as an alternative to the lug rig, one could use a second-hand laser rig.

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    Default GIS plans

    Steve,
    How come you got interested in building Goat Island skiff ?
    Do you feel the boat is easy to build and the plans detailed enough for a beginner in boat building ?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Locke
    Curious to hear from anyone who has bought his instruction book and if it is as comprehensive as he says.

    Note that it has a balanced lug rig. That should be easier and faster to rig than Green Island, and probably more sail area than Bluegill's spritsail. Bluegill is 82 square feet but the Goat Island site says 85 at one point and then 105 in another.

    Let us know if you hear more.

    Chris
    Howdy,

    The lug rig is 105.

    Designer's biased :-) comments follow:

    Plan detail leaves just about everyone but Oughtred for dead. Oughtred's level of detail was my aim, and I haven't quite got there yet. I'd like to add some photos of procedure to the plan and haven't got enough photos. However the coming ten days I'll be teaching at the Duck Flat Spring School where there will be one built - I'll be chasing it with my digital camera and updating the plan.

    The previous update was to offer a revised hollow mast to save some timber cost and weight.

    Nontheless every step is documented and illustrations are provided where necessary. Plans are 9 drawing sheets plus 80 pages of text and diagrams.

    Bulk does not necessarily mean quality - but I have done my best to make sure it does in this case.

    You can see two builder's sites at
    http://homepage.mac.com/peterhyndman/GISintro.htm
    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/...sisu/index.htm

    I can put you in personal contact with one and possibly both of these gentlemen and maybe the remarkable Leigh Hemmings who is currently using his GIS as a gravel barge between the island he lives on and the rest of Australia (it's not far) - he is promising to turn it back into the light sailing boat it was up until a few months ago.

    Michael Storer
    Last edited by Boatmik; 10-01-2006 at 09:43 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default Goat Island Skiff

    Eric, I'm one of the proud owners of the GIS, "Sisu", that Michael linked to. I sent him a letter with a detailed breakdown of our design criteria, and how I thought Sisu fulfilled them. Perhaps he'll post it here. In brief, here it is.

    WE WANTED: a boat that would safely carry the largest number of boys & gear and would still be light enough to cartop. WE GOT: darned near that. A bigger boat, for its 16' length, than we expected. A very stable boat. A boat that "can" be cartopped... but it's not a long-term solution. We've been doing so for 1.5 years, but it's a chore - especially at the end of a long weekend of boating, beer, swimming, etc. We are currently rigging a trailer for her.

    WE WANTED: a boat that'd be a balance between sailing, rowing & motoring - weighted slightly toward sailing. WE GOT: a hullform that's primarily a sailing boat. We haven't sailed it yet, though the sailing rig is almost complete, and we're looking forward to it. Reports are that she sails "like a witch". Rowing, I really enjoy. As designed, she doesn't really track that straight - better for a slalom course than for a straight shot across the lake. I think I'll be adding a small skeg (or two) to help in that respect. Motoring is quite nice also. We put a Nissan 4stroke 5hp on her. That's probably more than she needs, but seems to work fine and offers some reserve. My only (minor) complaint is that she squats under power with only myself in her. That's the compromise of using a sailboat hull, with its rocker aft, as a motorboat. With more bodies, we can shift weight forward, and she trims well.

    WE WANTED: a boat that'd be dead simple for my 12 & 17year old boys to build (along with a bit of help from Jerry my publisher/accountant friend, definitely not a woodworker - and myself, a professional woodworker). WE GOT: just that. Very simple build. My three compatriots did the bulk of the work, and it turned out quite well. I tarted it up a bit with a canarywood transom cap, ipe gunwales, and mahogany knees and breasthook (thereby adding to the "too heavy to cartop" problem).

    WE WANTED: a boat that, despite all the other requirements, wouldn't be just an "ugly box". Of course, beauty is in the eye, etc.... and it's a range, not either/or. We knew it would be expecting a lot to have all of the above... and have it sexy too. We were expecting less than gorgeous and prepared to accept Far Less. What we didn't want was a scow. What we didn't want was a square box, like the Puddle Duck Racer I'm currently building for the youngest son (hey, he picked it, not me), or some of Bolger's odder efforts. We wanted something that looked like a boat. WE GOT: far more than we had any right to expect. Simply stated - I was very pleasantly surprised at the final outcome. Pete Culler said, "Straight is the line of beauty, curved is the line of beauty". I have to agree, and that's what we got - a curvaceous cutey. The fotos Michael posted don't really do her justice, but check them out for yourself.

    Whew... did I say brief? Once I get started, it's hard to stop. The brief version is, We Love This Boat!

    Hope that's helpful. Of the other boats, I would also recommend one of the Welsford designs. Some of the others I am just not very familiar with. Some of them are gonna be too small and/or narrow for your stated purposes. Good Luck.

  22. #22
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    Default Wow !

    Thanks David. Your reply gives me more then I expected. It is that first hand feedback I needed to be able to choose the right design and GIS is on top of the list as I share the same requirements you mentionned about her building.
    Hope that GIS be more popular design for this forum's readers

  23. #23
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    As things might change the permanent URL for the GIS is
    http://www.storerboatplans.com/GIS/GISplan.html

    There are links there to pages by the owners mentioned there as well.

    MIK
    Last edited by Boatmik; 10-02-2006 at 06:50 PM.

  24. #24
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    Default

    GIS


  25. #25
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    Default

    The pic is of Peter Hyndman on launching day.

    The only prob with the pic is that the sail has not been hoisted high enough. It was the maiden sail after all.

    Also the designer (me) had put a wrong instruction in the plan about how far up the boom needed to be - I gave the measurement from the "deck" rather than the sheerline. So the sail should almost be 8" further up. (the plan has been corrected of course!)

    MIK

    Later addition: I have put up some pages on setting up lug and sprit rigs for good performance here:
    http://www.storerboatplans.com/Faq/t...rformance.html
    Last edited by Boatmik; 08-06-2007 at 04:38 AM.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    Look at the right side of this page for some galleries of Goat Island Skiff pictures. They are of Peter Hyndman's "Gruff".
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik

    The pictures show a 13 year old boat that has never been repainted or revarnished. It shows that the whole epoxy method works and works well if done conscientiously. There are no fastenings in this boat - correction - there are 6 screws to lock the tops of the side stiffeners to the gunwale/inwale structure but not one anywhere else.

    It also shows a capsize where the designer was trying to show off to some girls (I'm old enough to know better) and the following recovery.

    It has been sailed and sailed. To be fair there are a couple of places where the covers have rubbed in the wind, about a foot long on each gunwale, when the boat was stored outside for a couple of seasons and the varnish on the cockpit floor has gone foggy because water has gone through the varnish to be stopped by the epoxy - the boat collected water when stored outside under covers.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Goat Island Skiff

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Locke View Post
    I had heard of the Goat Island Skiff and searched for it but could not find the designer's website. Good find.

    On a cursery look, it seems similar to the Green Island 15. I note that both designers are Australian and appear to have a thing about islands ... ;-)

    Sort of half-way between the Green Island and Bluegill. More interior stuff than Bluegill but less (and a good deal less weight) than Green Island. Curious to hear from anyone who has bought his instruction book and if it is as comprehensive as he says.

    Note that it has a balanced lug rig. That should be easier and faster to rig than Green Island, and probably more sail area than Bluegill's spritsail. Bluegill is 82 square feet but the Goat Island site says 85 at one point and then 105 in another.

    Let us know if you hear more.

    Chris
    I have the instructions and the plans, and they seem pretty complete to me but my only comparison is HH Paysons instant boat building with Dynamite P. I was looking at the car topper but it looked like more work and too small a craft for my needs. However, I have only started layout on the GIS and have yet to fit anything as my wood delivery has been delayed. If you can work with a chiltons manual then this isn't much different.

    If you go with an oz boat you will need to order a metric tape, which is easy enough.
    Last edited by switters; 11-01-2007 at 07:30 PM. Reason: more thoughts to add
    Disbelief in magic can force a poor soul into believing in government and business.
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  28. #28
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    All due deference to the fine GIS, and its designer, but to my way of thinking I'd like something rounder for the St Lawrence, which looks as if it can get pretty lumpy. My vote is cast for Francois Vivier's Le Seil:

    http://vivierboats.com/Img/seil_en.pdf


    That is an really intruiging looking vessel with a track record in major Scandanavian Raids. Granted, one has to like a pram shape.

    I can envision a nice trip up the Saugenay with whales popping up around the boat and being safely ensconced iin the capacious boom tent for the night.
    DG
    Live and let live

  29. #29
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    And I'll put in a plug for Vivier's Yuokou Lili, also of Raid success. I built one slowly but without trouble, having only put together a nutshell pram before. See some pics at http://www.francois.vivier.info/albu.../index_fr.html
    A good rowing boat too!
    Patrick

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Thanks for replies

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik le Rouge View Post
    Wow, lots of stuff...
    In fact the boat my friend and I need, as we are first time builder, is ease of building with clear instructions and also as we want to use it with our families, a somewhat easy boat to handle.
    As for seaworthiness our intended use is mostly on the Saint-Lawrence river in Quebec-Canada that can change from "simple" river to big sea at its mouth.
    Storer's Goat Island Skiff fits the "simple and easy" requirement very well. Fewer parts, fewer joints, light weight materials and a dead simple (read, inexpensive) rig.

    I'm finishing the interior of mine at the moment. I don't think you will find a simpler design in the size range you propose.

    Storer (Boatmik on here) has been very helpful and responsive whenever I've had questions.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    I have put a building sequence with notes for the (Goat Island Skiff) GIS up on Flickr for those who are interested.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik...7602972202430/



    Actually it is all the pictures from the Duck Flat Spring School and I have separated out the GIS ones so you can follow the narrative.



    I have also gone through and written comments about each of the major steps.

    So most of the hull construction is covered as is some of the hollow box section mast. There is a round solid one for those who like a dose of tradition!



    Michael

  32. #32
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    VERY nice set of photos on Flickr, Michael! Certainly makes the GIS build and design a lot more understandable, a lot less scary...

    ;0 )
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    And you won't even have the designer on hand to make fundamental mistakes in the build!

    As he did with one of the construction bits (the building thread on flickr explains where!

    Best wishes.
    Michael

    Last edited by Boatmik; 11-15-2007 at 02:59 AM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    building a Reuel Parker crabbing skiff - http://mackhorton.com/Sharpie%20web/BB1.htm

  35. #35
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    Default Re: 15' to 18' sailing designs

    Hey Lea!
    Had a look at your pic's a few months ago - even bookmarked them! But I've only just noticed what a nice looking timber the transom is made from: What is it? Has it held up since you've launched?

    PS: Michael, the GIS is a very nice little ship. Seen your write ups in Australian Ameteur Boatbuilder. Makes me pround of our lil' Island!

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