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Thread: California Assembly approves universal, single-payer health care system

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    Default California Assembly approves universal, single-payer health care system

    This is, of course, how the US is going to get to a health system that works: state-by-state, until the Feds will be forced to act and standardize the system.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p....5Ms0&refer=us

    California Assembly Approves State-Run Universal Health Care
    By Michael B. Marois

    Aug. 28 (Bloomberg) -- The California Assembly passed a bill that could create a state-run agency to provide health insurance to all residents.

    The bill, approved in a 43-to-30 vote, would create a single-payer health-care system operated by a new state agency that would cover all Californians. The measure still must be approved by the Senate and Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    Schwarzenegger, who's seeking re-election in November, has said in the past the he doesn't support a single-payer system. The bill is opposed by business groups that back his campaign.

    Under the new plan, doctors and hospitals would be paid from the state system rather than private insurers. Individual premiums would be based on income, while businesses would be charged premiums based on their payroll.

    The measure follows a landmark Massachusetts law approved in April requiring all state residents to have health coverage.

    U.S. states are seeking ways to provide health care for the uninsured and to reduce state medical costs for the poor at a time when some 16 percent of Americans are currently without coverage.

    "California's health care system is the very definition of a system in crisis -- costs are high and options are low,'' Democratic Assemblyman Lloyd Levine, one of the authors of the bill, said in a statement. "California spends more than $180 billion a year on health care, and a single-payer system would lower overall spending while covering everyone.''

    Schwarzenegger press secretary Margita Thompson said his office would not comment on whether he intends to sign the bill.
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    Crypto-communism.


    ... but a fascinating development. Which folks will the Governor choose to offend? His political supporters, or the folks who elected the legislature?
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    Crypto communism? It's legal under the Constitution! What could be more of a "general welfare" than universal health coverage?
    Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; (emph. added)
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    And in today's Wall Street Journal there was an article saying how much more efficient insurance companies were. So efficient that Medicare payments were being processed cheaper by insurance companies.

    I guess Norman can read the article and explain the details.

    ---

    Provide for the general welfare might mean setting requirements for insurers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Roberts
    Provide for the general welfare might mean setting requirements for insurers.
    It might mean anything Congress wants it to - just ask them!
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    And in today's Wall Street Journal there was an article saying how much more efficient insurance companies were. So efficient that Medicare payments were being processed cheaper by insurance companies.
    George, too true. It'll be interesting to see how a state that has to ration electricity to its citizens decides how to ration health care.
    I never learned from a man who agreed with me.

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    Well, as a Californian, I'm concerned. Not that making health care available to everyone isn't a good thing, but I've seen the movie before, under the guise of any number of plans, such as worker's compensation insurance, for instance.

    I look for the following to occur:

    1. A mass exodous of doctors moving to other states where they can make a living.

    2. A huge increase in income taxes, in order to subsidize care for those millions in the state who have "opted out" of the system and work "under the table."

    3. A general decrease in economic health, as companies move elsewhere to avoid taxes and expenses associated with the socialized medicine plan.

    4. A general decrease in the quality of healthcare as funding is gradually cut to the "lowest common denominator."

    5. The creation of a huge, and expensive, adjudicative system to determine eligibility for one or another medical procedure. "Experimental" (i.e. cutting edge) procedures will not be approved, so progress in the field will slow.

    6. Tremendous ethical issues raised by whether the system will cover abortion and euthanasia, application of "extreme lifesaving measures" will be in question as well.

    7. An increase in illegal aliens and also an influx of folks from all over the rest of the country with preexisting health problems who are in need of care they otherwise cannot afford...

    Need I go on? There is always a contradiction between entreprenuerial capitalism and socialism. I feel another bit of motivation to do more and realize the gains slipping away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek
    Well, as a Californian, I'm concerned. Not that making health care available to everyone isn't a good thing, but I've seen the movie before, under the guise of any number of plans, such as worker's compensation insurance, for instance.

    I look for the following to occur:

    1. A mass exodous of doctors moving to other states where they can make a living.
    Unlikely. Single-payer is not the same as state-run.
    2. A huge increase in income taxes, in order to subsidize care for those millions in the state who have "opted out" of the system and work "under the table."
    They are already there and consuming health care that you (we) pay for. They just do it via the most expensive means possible: by deferring care until it cannot be avoided, then going to the emergency room or trauma center to consume the most expensive health care resources available. Further, many doctors spend more than 20% of their working time dealing with the myriad insurance companies and claim forms necessary -- single-payer eliminates a huge amount of bureaucratic overhead from the health care system (ask any office admin at a doctor's office, dentist's office or hospital).
    3. A general decrease in economic health, as companies move elsewhere to avoid taxes and expenses associated with the socialized medicine plan.
    I look to see businesses coming to California to lower their costs (see GM and Ford's experience in Canada. Much lower costs due to the distribution of health care across the entire population)
    4. A general decrease in the quality of healthcare as funding is gradually cut to the "lowest common denominator."
    You can always buy additional insurance or pay out-of-pocket for noncovered expenses.
    5. The creation of a huge, and expensive, adjudicative system to determine eligibility for one or another medical procedure. "Experimental" (i.e. cutting edge) procedures will not be approved, so progress in the field will slow.
    Already got that...in spades. Every insurance provider already comes equipped with that hug, expensive adjudication system.
    7. An increase in illegal aliens and also an influx of folks from all over the rest of the country with preexisting health problems who are in need of care they otherwise cannot afford...
    Exactly why it needs to be a nation-wide deal: the risk pool needs to be all-inclusive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless
    It'll be interesting to see how a state that has to ration electricity to its citizens decides how to ration health care.
    Hasn't it been demonstrated that the major reason for the electricity rationing in 2000 was manipulation of supplies by unscrupulous traders? IIRC, people went to jail and companies were fined. This, of course, was after California foolishly implemented an electricity deregulation plan.

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    Hasn't it been demonstrated that the major reason for the electricity rationing in 2000 was manipulation of supplies by unscrupulous traders?
    Yes. OTOH, California deregulated in a spectacularly stupid way, leaving the state vulnerable to the sort of manipulation of the system quickly discovered by the folks at Enron and elsewhere

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Roberts
    And in today's Wall Street Journal there was an article saying how much more efficient insurance companies were. So efficient that Medicare payments were being processed cheaper by insurance companies.

    I guess Norman can read the article and explain the details.
    Unfortunately, I can't read it, since I'm not a subscriber.

    Of course, it might be useful to first define 'efficiency'.... if defined as the percentage of dollars into the system that end up getting spent on health care, rather than administrative costs or profit, then it's no contest, Medicare beats insurance companies, hands down. If efficiency is defined as how little the system spends on health care, then insurance companies win. However, I'd be interested to see the WSJ take on this... if you can C&P it.

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    Does anyone know what chances this bill has in the State Senate?

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    It will likely pass the State Senate, but The Governator will veto it. Some say this is an election year ploy by the democrats to force him to do something stupid at election time.
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    If you want to see an operational system, warts and all ,that is as basic to Australia as the postal system .....just visit .It works and we are very happy with it thank you.

    As a lecturer recently pointed out on the radio..one of the basic differences between Australians and Yanks is that we do not have a basic anomosity towards Government .
    Perfect is the enemy of good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley
    As a lecturer recently pointed out on the radio..one of the basic differences between Australians and Yanks is that we do not have a basic anomosity towards Government .
    You mean you where just having us on wiht all that bitching about your PM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkat
    You mean you where just having us on wiht all that bitching about your PM?
    I think that's animosity towards the current gumm't...not gumm't in general
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    Question I wonder

    How SWIMPAL and me, who are covered under her retirement plan with Kaiser Permanente, the HMO, will we be affected?

    We now have to pay about $80.00 each for Medicare "B" or if we don't Kaiser Perm will drop us like a hot potato.
    Even though SWIMPAL has over 28 commulative years working for them.

    What about Dental, Eyecare including glasses??????

    We can take care of the Dental and the Eyecare business out of our retirement plans but, there are so many retirees that don't have that option.
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    Don't panic yet, Dave! It's not law yet and doubtless many things would have to be worked out should it become so. I don't think KP will let you down!
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

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    I feel sorry for the Canadians. As things stand, they come south when they need good medical care. What will they do when we go socialist, too?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox
    I feel sorry for the Canadians. As things stand, they come south when they need good medical care. What will they do when we go socialist, too?
    Care to substantiate this claim? AFAIK, it's just rich Canadians who don't want to wait for their place in line who come down...

    It's truely amazing how people in countries with socialized medicine have higher life expectancies, lower infant mortality and a generally higher standard of living in spite of their supposedly poor medical services. Ever wonder who benefits from spreading this kind of rumor and do you really thing they're doing it for some altruistic, patriotic reason?

    I'll tell you something else: I'd MUCH, MUCH, MUCH, rather be living with high taxes and good medical services that caught my cancer before it got too big than be costing the taxpayers $40-60,000/year to prolong my life a few years and have a reduced quality of life while I'm dying.

    THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR GOOD HEALTH!

    A single payer system may not be the answer, but withholding universal healthcare is inhumane and unworthy of a civilized society!!!
    Last edited by Meerkat; 08-29-2006 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meerkat
    You mean you where just having us on wiht all that bitching about your PM?
    There is a difference between my feelings for the current PM and the functions of Government in general .In the US there seems to be general feeling of distrust,verging on antagonism (admittedly not from everyone) towards government and the works thereof .
    Perfect is the enemy of good.

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    The Republican party likes to encourage/play on distrust of government and especially that there is too much of it.

    I wonder, aside from the recent TSA bloat, how much the size of the US government has changed per capita over the years. IIRC, there is/was approximately 3 million government employees (I don't recall if that includes all levels of government or just federal), including military, or approximately 1 for every 100 citizens based on a 300 million population. Such a ratio does not seem excessive to me.

    However, please let us not digress from the healthcare issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox
    I feel sorry for the Canadians. As things stand, they come south when they need good medical care. What will they do when we go socialist, too?
    I always wonder where people get this notion that the Canadian system is socialized medicine. It's not. Doctors, hospitals and other caregivers are not, generally speaking, government employees: they are free to charge whatever they will (I'm sure somebody from Canada will correct me if I'm wrong).

    It's a single-payer insurance system: there is one group plan and everybody is covered.

    As far as Canadian coming south for medical care, that's typically elective care that is either not covered at all, or is highly rationed (e.g., a boob job). Unless my Canadian relatives have been lying to me all these years, any essential medical procedure is both covered and done. Obviously, for something that's not life-threatening, one might have to wait a bit.

    Here's the facts: virtually every industrialized (aka 1st world country) has some form of universal health care: albeit socialized medicine, a single-payer insurance system, or something similar. Most of those nations spend significantly less than does the USofA, both on a per-capita basis and as a percentage of GDP, while providing better health care based on almost any metric you choose to apply: infant mortality, life expectancy, etc.

    Canada spends less than USD $2200 per capita on health care (9.5% of GDP), whilst the US spends just under USD $4900 per capita (13.9% of GDP). Canada's health metrics are as good or better than those of the US...at less than half the cost.

    Canada spends 16.2% of its government revenues on health care; the US spends 17.6%.

    To make it worse, the US government covers 44% of all health care costs. The Canadian government covers 70.8%.

    France, Germany, Australia, Japan, etc., ... everybody else is pretty similar.

    Let's see: lower costs, better results, higher efficiencies. Business is more competitive globally due to the lower costs. What's not to like about this scheme?

    Let's see: better results, less cost, higher efficiencies. Business is
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    Bob Cleek? I'll only address one point of your worries above, for lack of time. I wouldn't be worried about an exodus of doctors from California so that they could move to places where they'd "make a living."

    I'm rather intimately aware of the average billings by physicians in my province. They are far, FAR from destitute. But yes, some physicians will leave for, if not greener pastures, then pastures paved with greenbacks.

    Even factoring in office costs, a newly scrubbed MD fresh out of his/her residency earns more money than the Deputy Minister of Health - the person responsible for operating the whole system. This before they've accumulated ANY years of experience in their practice. If such a person leaves because they feel they're "worth" more yet then I'm happy to let them go, and hire a physician more concerned with patient care than greed.

    Those who stay will still earn a far higher income than most citizens (and most professionals with an equal or greater education/experience level), and those who leave will likely not be the ones you'd really want in a patient-centred system.
    Last edited by TomF; 08-30-2006 at 07:00 AM.
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    Regardless of field I have seldom read statistics that were accurate enough to base a decision on.

    Regardless of field I have never read a popular press article that was accurate enough to base a decision on.

    I don't see a shortage of health care professionals where I live. I don't see a problem with health care costs where I live. I don't see doctors or patients spending too much time in dealing with payers.

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    Perhaps you don't look very closely.
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    "Quote:Originally Posted by WoxboxI feel sorry for the Canadians. As things stand, they come south when they need good medical care. What will they do when we go socialist, too?

    I always wonder where people get this notion that the Canadian system is socialized medicine. It's not. Doctors, hospitals and other caregivers are not, generally speaking, government employees: they are free to charge whatever they will (I'm sure somebody from Canada will correct me if I'm wrong).

    It's a single-payer insurance system: there is one group plan and everybody is covered."

    A couple of things:

    - It's not a single-payer system - each province has its own system. The federal govt. has mandated minimum standards under the Canada Health Act. There's some variation in what's covered, such as optometrists are not covered in Ontario.

    - Doctors, medical clinics and hospitals are independently run. The provincial govt. pays according to a fee structure. (In fact, the govt. acts like a very HMO, using its paying power to control costs.)

    - Drugs, eyeglasses, etc. are generally not covered. The federal govt. contributes

    - Some people go to the States for elective surgery, a) because they have the money b) they don't want to wait. These are boob jobs, hip replacements, etc.

    Overall, our health care is much better according to objective criteria such as the OECD i.e. Longer lifespan, lower infant mortality rates etc. With the type of system that we have, there's a greater emphasis on prevention and public health. (ie free flu shots for EVERYONE, child immunization, etc.) On the other hand, aging rich people aren't catered to as much. Too bad for them.
    Last edited by Will Wheeler; 08-30-2006 at 12:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Wheeler
    - It's not a single-payer system - each province has its own system. The federal govt. has mandated minimum standards under the Canada Health Act. There's some variation in what's covered, such as optometrists are not covered in Ontario.
    I omitted the fact that health care is provided by provinces, not by the Canadian gov't. Didn't want to add more confusion to the mix.
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    Nick, thanks for your well-considered response to my comments. I sure hope you are right.

    The problem we are facing here at present is that doctors really cannot afford to set up a private practice anymore. Dentists aren't far behind. It is so costly to set up all the necessary equipment for an office, etc. Hospitals are not generally run by health care consortiums which, while they claim "not for profit" tax status, are actually top heavy with administrators getting paid tremendous salaries. Meanwhile, the "bean counters" are dictating the treatment that doctors are authorized to provide. Insurance companies that are supposedly insuring us essentially pay whatever they feel like paying based on their opinion of what the procedure ought to cost. Docs and patients are left to pick up the difference somehow. One Kaiser doctor told me that she is allowed only fifteen minutes per patient and she has no control over scheduling her appointments. She says that often it is impossible to obtain a sufficient history from a patient in that short a time. Of course, if you need to see a doctor, most plans require you to see one on their approved list, one who has agreed to accept their devalued payment per procedure. Good luck if you want to see a specialist of your own choosing. Forget trying to find a doctor that will accept Medicare anymore!

    Unfortunately, the reality is that the advances in technology that have made modern medicine what it is are extremely expensive. So much so that few can really afford them, or even the insurance premiums that wouldl guarantee unlimited access to them. Also, hospital management has changed dramatically. Years ago, hospitals were not "profit centers." They were run by charitable organizations, staffed by nuns or others working for peanuts. When my mom was a nurse, their instruments and stuff were all reused, autoclaved and packaged for the next patient. Now, everything is disposable. If a patient comes in with "x" diagnosis, the computer issues an "x tray" that has everything needed for the procedure. What isn't used, which can often be most, if not all of it, it tossed. When my kid was in the neonatal ICU back in '81 for observation, for no reason other than that she was a bit premature, listed on the bill to the insurance company was a very expensive "brain shunt tray." I asked the finance officer when settling up why they were charging for a "brain shunt tray" when my daughter never had a brain shunt. She said, "Oh, that is standard issue in the neonatal ICU." I said, "Well, since it wasn't used and I'm paying for it, I'd like to have it." She said, "We can't give you a brain shunt tray without a doctor's prescription." I said, "Well, where's the prescription for this one?" She just gave me a nasty look. I explained this to the insurance company, telling them they were getting scammed, but they thanked me and said they account for this in their internal review process.

    The topper of all time, though, was a client of mine that brought me a hospital bill for an overnight stay for observation after a car accident. I had to send it on to the insurance company. They charged her a total of ten bucks for a couple of Advil and a Tampax. The Tampax was a buck. The total included, of course, a five dollar "pharmacy service charge." My client noted that the next time she was in the hospital and needed a Tampax, she was going to walk down to the visitor's ladies room and buy one out of the machine on wall for a dime! Obviously, the hospitals are making money on this kind of crap and we're paying for it. Didn't used to be that way.
    Last edited by Bob Cleek; 08-30-2006 at 01:45 PM.

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    I ran across this interesting post on www.washingtonmonthly.com... somewhat on topic:


    THE BEST CARE ANYWHERE....Thanks to innovations introduced during Bill Clinton's administration, VA healthcare is now among the nation's best. It's cheaper than either private healthcare or Medicare, the quality is top notch, and it operates according to strict performance standards. Sounds like a great model, doesn't it? So how about saving the feds money by allowing vets on Medicare to switch over to the VA? Time magazine says it's no dice:
    Conservatives fear such an arrangement would be a Trojan horse, setting up an even larger national health-care program and taking more business from the private sector. Congress has no plans to enlarge the scope of veterans' health care — much less consider it a model for, say, a government-run system serving nonvets. But it's becoming more and more "ideologically inconvenient for some to have such a stellar health-delivery system being run by the government," says Margaret O'Kane, president of the National Committee for Quality Assurance, which rates health plans for businesses and individuals. If VA health care continues to be the industry leader, it may become more difficult to argue that the market can do better.
    It might indeed become difficult. But not impossible! Give 'em time and I imagine that Bush will do the same thing to the VA that he did to FEMA, another Clinton bureaucratic success story.


    It turns out that the reasons for the VA's success are pretty straightforward: there are inherent advantages to managing all of a patient's healthcare needs over a long period, something that simply doesn't happen in the pseudo-private market that most of us deal with. Phil Longman wrote about the VA miracle for the Washington Monthly last year and explained the problem with our current healthcare model this way:
    As Lawrence P. Casalino, a professor of public health at the University of Chicago, puts it, “The U.S. medical market as presently constituted simply does not provide a strong business case for quality.”

    ....Suppose a private managed-care plan follows the VHA example and invests in a computer program to identify diabetics and keep track of whether they are getting appropriate follow-up care. The costs are all upfront, but the benefits may take 20 years to materialize. And by then, unlike in the VHA system, the patient will likely have moved on to some new health-care plan. As the chief financial officer of one health plan told Casalino: “Why should I spend our money to save money for our competitors?”

    ....For health-care providers outside the VHA system, improving quality rarely makes financial sense....Investing in any technology that ultimately serves to reduce hospital admissions, like an electronic medical record system that enables more effective disease management and reduces medical errors, is likely to take money straight from the bottom line. “The business case for safety…remains inadequate…[for] the task,” concludes Robert Wachter, M.D., in a recent study for Health Affairs in which he surveyed quality control efforts across the U.S. health-care system.
    As it happens, the VA model isn't the one I'd choose if I were inventing a national healthcare system for the United States. But it would probably be one component of it. And it demonstrates pretty conclusively that even in an older, sicker population, a national healthcare system can provide low-cost, high-quality service. We could do the same for every person in the country if we only had the will.

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    I agree with the Cleekster.

    When visiting a Kaiser Perm MD you are lucky to get 15 minutes out of the person.
    Most of that time is spent watching the MD review your chart aka file.

    Believe me you better know your med.history by heart cause that MD scans those last couple of pages so quickly, they just might miss something. It has happened to me! Good thing I caught it too.

    Then a couple of quick questions then 'wham' out comes the Rx pad!

    You get a brief, very brief, explanation of the Rx, a good by and out goes the MD. Stop at the Nurses Station for your outgoing paper work then out the door.

    It ain't free either. Through SWIMPAL, we are $5.00 per visit co-pays but, she tells me there are some who pay as much as $50.00 per visit.

    Plus there is similar co-pay on EACH Rx!

    They are overloaded with Admin. types as mentioned.

    Plus the MDs are not Kaiser Perm employees as was SWIMPAL! They belong to a Medical Group that is for profit, can make nice yearly bonuses, are on a contract which can include signup/re-up bonuses too!

    Oh, when you go down stairs to the Pharmacy, it is worse than the day after Christmas at Macys Dept Store.
    Line up, present the Rx , take a number and wait.
    When your number comes up, your Rx is all packaged, if you didn't quite understand the MDs' comments on it you have to request to speak to a Pharmacist(sp), you wait in yet another line till one has time to come up and speak to you. Better have your questions ready cause they are under so much pressure to get all those Rxs made up for the rest of the folks.

    I would dearly love to be able to afford a private MD but, we can't and are lucky to have the coverage we do.
    "Lord, grant that I may always desire more than I can accomplish"
    Michelangelo

  32. #32
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    15 minute appointments happen because of economics. It's a consequence of billing on a fee-for-service basis. Same principle as paying sweatshop employees for piecework - sewing 60 pairs of jeans nets you twice as much as 30.

    The economics work this way whether it's an HMO being paid on a fee-for-service basis, or an MD in private practice. More product = more in the pay packet.

    The choices include physicians/HMOs being willing to have less income (not happening), patients paying higher fees paid for longer/more complex consultations, or patients experiencing truncated care compared to what they (and very often the physician) would prefer.

    Putting physicians on salary doesn't solve the issue unless some form of through-put standards are written into contracts - but these are generally strenuously resisted. DAMHIKT.
    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

  33. #33
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    disclaimer: I work for a large health insurance company here in the PNW who shall remain nameless. Needless to say, my views on this topic are somewhat at odds with the official line toed by my employer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek
    The problem we are facing here at present is that doctors really cannot afford to set up a private practice anymore. Dentists aren't far behind. It is so costly to set up all the necessary equipment for an office, etc. Hospitals are not generally run by health care consortiums which, while they claim "not for profit" tax status, are actually top heavy with administrators getting paid tremendous salaries.
    That's right, and that's largely a problem with health care being taken over by entities like Hospital Corporation of America (Bill Frist's family biz) that look at health care as just another way to make a buck [or lots of bucks].

    Meanwhile, the "bean counters" are dictating the treatment that doctors are authorized to provide. Insurance companies that are supposedly insuring us essentially pay whatever they feel like paying based on their opinion of what the procedure ought to cost. Docs and patients are left to pick up the difference somehow. One Kaiser doctor told me that she is allowed only fifteen minutes per patient and she has no control over scheduling her appointments. She says that often it is impossible to obtain a sufficient history from a patient in that short a time. Of course, if you need to see a doctor, most plans require you to see one on their approved list, one who has agreed to accept their devalued payment per procedure. Good luck if you want to see a specialist of your own choosing. Forget trying to find a doctor that will accept Medicare anymore!
    Agreed. That's largely has to do with what laughably passes for "managed care" (on the part of for-profit insurance companies). The bizarre thing is that "managed care" and HMOs ("Health Maintenance Organization" was the original moniker) were originally created to push preventative medicine and try and catch problems before they were big and expensive problems. That was the rationale for requiring a primary care physician: the PCP would act in much the same way as an old-fashioned GP. They would get to know you and your family and help you stay healthy and make good lifestyle choices.

    Sadly, managed care hasn't worked out the way it was intended: these days, care is managed and vetted by doctors and nurses who work for the insurance company and not by one's primary caregiver -- second-guessing the actual health care provider (who actually might know something more about the case than is in the claim).

    The heavy workload under which doctors work and the short amount of time they get with each patient is also driven by the amount of administrivia with which they must deal. My doctor tells me that she spend an entire day (20% of her workload) dealing with insurance companies. That's a lot of expensive labor that's essentially frittered away.

    When my kid was in the neonatal ICU back in '81 for observation, for no reason other than that she was a bit premature, listed on the bill to the insurance company was a very expensive "brain shunt tray." I asked the finance officer when settling up why they were charging for a "brain shunt tray" when my daughter never had a brain shunt. She said, "Oh, that is standard issue in the neonatal ICU." I said, "Well, since it wasn't used and I'm paying for it, I'd like to have it." She said, "We can't give you a brain shunt tray without a doctor's prescription." I said, "Well, where's the prescription for this one?" She just gave me a nasty look. I explained this to the insurance company, telling them they were getting scammed, but they thanked me and said they account for this in their internal review process.
    Billing for unused supplies I believe constitutes fraud.

    My employer, I know, spends a good amount of cash doing (and have actually spun off a stand-alone subsidiary who specializes in) "discovery, recovery, subrogration, prevention and provider bill auditing."

    I'm with you. The whole system is pretty broken from my way of thinking.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  34. #34
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    Meerkat ---

    The state of Oklahoma provides:

    1) free well baby clinics - never a wait.

    2) free prenatal/postnatal care - never a wait.

    3) free vaccinations - only a wait for flu shots.

    4) free health insurance for those earning under $27k/yr (as I recall). Must be some details.

    5) Any public hospital will give free service to those who need it.

    People tend to not take advantage of this.

    Oklahoma is not on the forefront of providing care. I expect most people simply want others to pay their bills. And they see one payer as being one way to accomplish this.

    ---

    I am healthy as are my children and their families. What "sickly" people want is for me and my family to be in their insurance groups. (I have money, in part, because I went years without health insurance.)

    There was a young fellow on TV a few days ago. Motorcycle stunt rider. 20 surgeries in the past few years. Certainly a different risk class than my family. He would also like for me to be in his insurance group to help pay his bills.

    ----

    I am willing to join your group. I can gain a few pounds, drink regulary, smoke, be reckless. I can even drop my income down to where I pay no premium. I think I will enjoy sucking off the public t**t.

  35. #35
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    Oklahoma is one of 50 states. Everything's fine as long as yours is? If so, how about we just send Oklahomans off to the Bush League War?
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Roberts
    Meerkat ---
    I am willing to join your group. I can gain a few pounds, drink regulary, smoke, be reckless. I can even drop my income down to where I pay no premium. I think I will enjoy sucking off the public t**t.
    I don't drink nor am I particularly reckless. I also don't seem to have the blinders you have on, so would not qualify for your "group."
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  37. #37
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    It should be noted that all these "free" health services are, in fact, no more free than any other health care. We all pay for it, either via the government, via higher insurance rates, or via higher medical costs because the person who goes to the ER for medical care when they need it can't pay and the hospital winds up eating the cost of treatment.

    I believe the correct term is TAANSTAFL
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Roberts
    I am willing to join your group. I can gain a few pounds, drink regulary, smoke, be reckless. I can even drop my income down to where I pay no premium. I think I will enjoy sucking off the public t**t.
    Yup, that's it... you hit the nail right on the head, Mr. Roberts. Those poor people who develop some disease through no fault of their own are unquestionably enjoying sucking off the public tit, all right. I bet they're laughing and smiling all the way, too.

    Sheeesh.

    If you ever develop some serious illness, through no fault of your own, which might cost you more than your self-imposed limit of $5000 for treatment or care, I will feel sorry for you, and be sympathetic, as you die. It's the 'Christian' thing to do.

  39. #39
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    Dang Roberts,,,,,,your post ,, "moved" me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I vote we all " Let George do it"

  40. #40
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    I had stopped reading this thread but ...

    The Wall Street Journal has a fine article that covers a Harvard University study of medical care. Just a few details from the text (I have no idea what the graphs are trying to say):

    Lifetime medical costs for a person born in 1960: $13k (2002 dollars)

    Lifetime medical costs for a person born in 2000: $83k (Note how this number compares to the $100k lifetime medical benefit I suggested in another thread.)

    Benefit of medical care is 3.5 years longer life. (Other factors - decrease in smoking and the like - have been adjusted for.)

    ---

    A comment by an expect on health-care:

    "the data on the elderly is 'particularly worrisome.' It shows that in the last 2 decades the average costs per additional year of life 'are beyond what would be seen as acceptable using traditional standards for cost-effectiveness analysis.'"

  41. #41
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    Nicholas Carey ---

    "free" means that we are better off providing it than not providing it.

    For example:

    I call my health care insurance free. In reality I pay a couple hundred dollars per month. But at the end of the year regardless of if I have used my insurance or not, I am in a better financial position that had I not purchased health care insurance.

    The insurance is certainly free to me.

    ---

    Many employers have found that paying employees for sick days, vacation days, and to attend school reduces the cost of running their business. Those benfits are free to both the employee and employer.

    There are free lunches.

    ---

    The federal government has found that tax cuts produce increased tax revenues. Sure sound like a free lunch to both sides.

    ---

    There are lots of free lunches out there.

  42. #42
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    It occurs to me that currently we have a single payer heath program in the US. The government pays all the expenses. And there is no overhead. Unfortunately, the government pays for nothing in this program.

    It is augmented buy other federal insurance plans and private plans.

  43. #43
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    If it wasnt for the fact that my employer pays for all my insurance I wouldnt have any.I count it as income due to the fact it doesnt come out of my pocket,and my employer says I'm worth the expense,so far,,,,,

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