First Center Console, need advice on layout

[G Jacobson]

Some of you may remember my post in July when I flipped the hull ( I haven't gotten much done since then) :



Before I proceed with installing frames, deck stringers, etc... I would like to finalize my interior layout and I would appreciate some input from experienced CC owners/builders first. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get that advice out here in the Pacific NW where CC's are not particularly popular due to the cool/wet weather.

In spite of this, I feel a CC fits my fishing needs much better than a walk-thru windshield, or cuddy cabin layout. I do a lot of fly-fishing and prefer casting conventional gear to trolling or sitting on anchor soaking bait, - although I will use those methods when appropriate.

I have been told CC's "waste space" but this is from guy's who would rather be sitting down holding a beer than casting (not that that's a bad thing). So after studying numerous CC's I have pretty much settled on the following layout:



I "borrowed" a couple of ideas from Boston Whaler, specifically the double console seat with the forward/reverse convertable seat back. I also like the angled corner seats which seem to make better use of the limited space (an issue with this design due to the double outboard well.) I also wrestled with where to place the console fore/aft and finally came to the conclusion that slightly forward of center was the best compromise of balance and use of space. I wanted to put it further aft, but I need to carry up to 3 passengers with some degree of comfort.

For weather protection I figure I can do some combination of a removable bimini top with canvas/plastic covers, - and possibly a removable bow cover for ocean use.

Thanks in advance.

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[warthog5]

Those rear storage area's with the seat's on them will be a pain.

A lot of older Mako boat's have something similar. When these Mako's get modified. One of the main thing's is to cut those box's out.

You can't lean aginst them to support yourself and sitting in those seat's will get you wet.

I would have a 48qt removable ice chest [tied down] in front of the console for the 3rd person to sit on.

I guess you have the 2- 25hp motor's already?

It's a lot less complicated with one bigger single. Say 75hp to 90hp.

[G Jacobson]

"Those rear storage area's with the seat's on them will be a pain."

Warthog,

One option I am considering is not building them as box seats with dry storage, but as fold-down or removable seats that are open underneath. That doesn't solve the problem of getting wet though.

I may leave the rear seats out entirely and use the cooler/seat method either in front, or centered on the transom. The problem is I need to seat 4 including myself (2 teenagers and my wife). The kids can probably deal with sitting on a cooler but my wife has back problems and needs a comfortable seat. Often it will be just myself and/or fishing buddy so an open layout would be better in that case.

And yeah, I know a single motor is much simpler, but I really like the redundancy of twins. My preference would have been for a pair of 30's or even 40's, but finding a matched set turned out to be a major challenge and I got a great deal on the 25's. It's a fairly light boat for it's size though, and going fast isn't my concern anyway, - rough water handling is.

Thanks for the input, that's exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for.

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[George Ray]

Nice work and thoughtful design ideas

[Salted Nuts]

I agree with Warthog5 on the rear seats. I have owned centre consoles and cuddy cabin boats before and they tend to intrude on your already limited fishing space, especially with 3 people on board. They will also get very wet if it gets a bit choppy.

If you want to have a seat down aft, a padded bench seat that hinges down I have found works best as this also gives you something flat and soft to lean against when you are landing the big one, and also lets you stretch out on those days when they are not biting and you just have to enjoy the boating experience .

I have also found you need somewhere convenient but not in the way to put yours, and your friends tackle boxes/fishing rods/lunch ice boxes(I try to keep it simple, but my mates tend to bring tackle boxes that need a crane to lift aboard)

Have you considered having 2 x fuel tanks beside the engines at the back with deck fillers, saving you from climbing in the boat at the bowser. Having this as a storage area may be hard to access. Having dry storage under the console seat would be better(life vests/safety gear), but thats just my opinion, possibly have one of those flush mount tackle boxes fit into the side or back? The weight of the fuel at the back would possibly help the ride and performance if you had 3 blokes around the console area?
By having the 3rd seat/ice box in front of the console, as Warthog5 indicated, and the fold down bench at the back if necessary, this might allow you to move the console back a little. Go as wide as possible on the console and windshield as this is your only protection.
It's good to see you are planning well ahead. Centre Consoles would have to be the best for fishing, giving you full walk around on the boat. People are going to get a little wet every now and then, thats what spray jackets were designed for. As long as you the skipper is dry, who cares

[cdragon]

I have a 22' center console and weather aside-the CC is a very practical setup. Depending on how you will use the boat (long runs to where you want go in chop, puttering about the harbor etc, people involved etc) I find that hardly anyone ever sits in my boat, everyone stands around the CC will underway and hangs on-that is why the T-Top configuration (while a bit ugly) is so popular, lots of beefy stuff to hang on to, you're under the T-Top and out of the sun, windshield breaks the spray for the helmsman.
If you are going to fish-I would leave the boat as open and unencumbered as possible-ie: no seats aft which is alot of weight aft while planing for most CC boats anyway. Nice to have some sort of spray hood forward so people can hide if it is rough and you can lounge around, have a nap etc. You get wet in an open CC in chop-that's the way it is. If you don't go all the way to a T-Top (I don't have one), then make sure you have a good strong windshield and nice SS tubing all around for hanging on and let her rip. Lastly, and since you have the option now-can you build in some nice big fuel tanks? I have a 20 gallon external tank in my console and it is too small, awkward, prone to spilling when fueling etc, I wish I had a couple of 20's or more nice and low and forward in the hull-it is a pain to have to worry about fuel all the time. Good luck with your boat-she looks nice

[brad9798]

Couple of thoughts ...

A rigid soft top with zip enclosure would come in handy where you are.

Console seems a foot or so TOO forward. Would probably get better performance/ride moving it back and creating a seat in front of the console (as others have mentioned).

Move your gas tanks under your angled corner seats ... you don't want to be sitting on your gas when you're driving ... at least I don't.

The switchback seat is nice!!

I would also raise the casting deck higher ... to accomodate anchor locker and rode. Then you can add bow rail and still accomplish the safety thing for the caster!

Looks really nice.

Just my 2 cents.

Brad

[geeman]

Would it be possible to have a double seat arrangement so your wife could sit beside you while underway?Something with a back on it so she (and you) could be comfortable?I understand the back problem thing, my wife has back problems also,the more comfortable she is the better time everyone has.

[G Jacobson]

I truly appreciate the great input and kind comments. It's amazing to tap into all this experience and huge knowledge base so easily. It's also great to know that the lines I spent so much time fussing over, look good to other boat builders too.

The fold-down rear seats sound like the way to go. Unfortunately, gas tanks in the bulkheads on either side of the well aren't an option due to the cramped and angular dimensions. I may be able to squeeze in built in tackle storage, but I will probably just use them as dry storage which will allow for easier inspection and ventilation of the bulkheads.

To answer Geeman, the center seat is a double seat and will have a back support that converts from forward to rear facing.

Here's a modified layout including the following changes:

1) Fold-down rear seats.
2) Console moved back ~ 6".
3) Console widened.
4) Forward deck height/area increased.



The addition of rails is another idea I like and would fix my safety concerns about the increased forward deck height. I like the increased area that goes with the higher deck. This also makes a wider console more practical, - with the added benefits of increased storage space and better weather/spray protection. I will add a anchor/rope locker on the fore deck.

I'm working on some T-top/bimini ideas, but I don't like the look of what I have so far.

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[brad9798]

Looking good!

I know it's sometimes difficult to ask for input ... but when I do, it always helps out for the better!

Let's us know how her plans develop!

Brad

[geeman]

I didnt look closely enough at the 1st drawings or I would have noticed the wide seat.I spend a lot of time now days trying to make the boat as comfy as possible for the wife.With her med problems its a have to thing now.She has always been the type to work the boat as a partnership deal.Her having certain jobs loading or unloading etc.Now I have to take her limits into consideration,but thats fine with me.The alternative is not having her with me and thats not an option as far as I'm concerned.

[donald branscom]

[QUOTE=G Jacobson]Some of you may remember my post in July when I flipped the hull ( I haven't gotten much done since then) :



Before I proceed with installing frames, deck stringers, etc... I would like to finalize my interior layout and I would appreciate some input .....quote]

Look at fishing boats. You won't see many center cockpit boats in the ocean.You also you won't see many center cockpit sailboats either.
Dive boats have center cockpits but there is a reason for that.

[G Jacobson]

Look at fishing boats. You won't see many center cockpit boats in the ocean.You also you won't see many center cockpit sailboats either.
Dive boats have center cockpits but there is a reason for that.

True statement. Cuddy or full cabins pretty much rule the salt here in the NW, - and that would my choice if the ocean was my primary usage. I should have specified that most of my time will be freshwater fishing in the Columbia River and fly-fishing lakes. What saltwater fishing I have planned will consist mostly of crabbing and salmon fishing in coastal bays. When it comes to the ocean, I really just want the capability to fish it, and plan on picking my days carefully.

It's impossible to design a boat that does everything, but I'm hoping this one covers most of my bases (I still have the Driftboat for the whitewater stuff ). I think this boat will really shine when I can go from poking around tidewater channels to crossing the bar in the same trip if I feel like it.

[mmd]

I would suggest moving the battery aft, closer to the engines. The power draw for starting is substantial, and the shorter the primary cables the less amperage drop. Longer distances require heavier cabling, meaning greater expense. The amperage required for your console instruments is vastly smaller, so a lighter guage cable will be fine for providing power up front. There is also the weight thing - in planing boats, as a general rule, it is best to keep as much weight aft as possible. Your console is more forward than usual (not a bad thing) and the casting deck adds to the weight forward, so shifting a few heavy things (fuel, battery, icebox) aft will go a long way to making the boat perform better when underway.

[Salted Nuts]

Just wanted to throw in something else I had set up on one of my previous boats, where you have drawn 3 fold down seats aft, I had a padded top that matched the seats fitted to an esky(ice box) that fit snug between the 2 outer folding seats. I then folded down the outer seats when fishing and unclipped the padded cushion on the esky so my wife did not complain about the fishy bits getting on it Still give you a comfortable lounge across the stern if you are day tripping.

[J_Boat]

I am a rank amateur, but, having spent a lot of time in 15-25' outboard boats......

Move the console back a little to soften the ride. The further forward, the more vertical movement. The further back, the less vertical movement. The older I get, the closer to the back of the boat I like to sit. It is a comfort issue.

Also, get the battery up out of the bilge. You don't want to take on a little water and swamp your electrical system. I think putting it in the console would work fine, just make sure you put adequately large cables from there to the motor(s).

[rbgarr]

My opinion is that center consoles really come into their own on larger boats that can have a head or engine inside/underneath. Otherwise they are not the best use of the limited space in a smaller boat.

I used my open 19 footer with wife and two kids, too. We had a vee berth forward so three could sit comfortably dry up there (the aft part of the cockpit was always damp from spray underway), the console was minimal and off to the starboard side with a moveable folding padded chair for seating, although most of the time I was standing to the left of the console in the middle of the boat. I could cast and retrieve from anywhere by walking up and down the centerline without having to lookout for stepping up/down/around/ etc. My weight was also lower in the boat, and the loss of 'eye height' was not significant. The other three could sit crosslegged, sunbathe, make sandwiches, play cards, read, etc. while I did my thing. It made anchoring easier, too.

Coolers for food, fish in the stern and bags for gear, etc., to port under the sidedeck. We could load, launch, and be underway from the trailer or dry storage forklift in the amount of time it took most others to dock and start the motor. Very pleasant days out and in.

[G Jacobson]

More great advice to mull over, - thanks everybody.

Rbgarr,

You make a good argument, but I still see a CC as the best option for me. The few guys that fly-fish the salt out here in the NW, - seem to prefer CC's. One in particular, is also a guide and he swears by his 17' Montauk. I'm sure mine will ride wetter than windshield boat's or cuddy's, but I'm hopeful that it will be drier than most CC's. The hull shape is loosely based on a design my Dad came up with in the 60's that has lots of flare and is very effective at knocking spray down. Besides, I figure I will only get the wife out on the calmest, warmest days anyway .

Others,

The suggestions to move the console back even further make sense. I could do this if I eliminated the fold-down rear seats and, essentially, moved them to the front of the console. I initially disliked this layout because I thought the passengers up front would be totally exposed and get soaked, - or at least, simply blasted by the wind. This might not actually be the case though, - especially with some kind of bow-cover in place.

Getting the battery out of the bilge is also a good idea, even though I liked the low placement for a ballast effect. I was thinking I would place it in a water-tight box (in retrospect, "watertight" probably isn't realistic.) Cable distance from the motors isn't a concern since I went with manual start (less convenient but more reliable).

Again, thanks for helping me figure this out. Hopefully some of this will feedback will be useful to someone else too.

Stay tuned for more versions....

[Gary E]

The front of the control station is leaning back to far, and because it is the windshield will hit you in the face when your stand up. If you going to make the cooler removable, use a chock system to make sure it's held in place and how are you going to hold it down?

[pipefitter]

I agree about the console leaning back too far,especially if the face of it becomes a backrest for a console fore seat. I am thinking 12º with a snap on cushion that hides an access panel,allowing to get to the back of your in dash electrics from the front of the console. This allows you to service it without yoga positioning around the helm seat. 12º allows you to,by the time a cooler seat is installed in front,to have a comfortable distance and angle to the back rest cushion.

Also,typically on center console boats,the helm is mounted to port and the engine controls to starboard. Reason being is teleflex cable systems enter the outboard from the starboard side. Port mounted helm allows the horizontal exit of the steering cable from the helm to easily drop over and down to starboard with a smooth run and less cable to the starboard side of the engine/s.

As of the redundancy of twins,it is hard to synch the smaller engines and without counter rotation of the props,makes for an odd handling situation at WOT and with the outboards mounted so close together and foreward of the stern,you may experience cavitation problems or one engine overloading the other. I would opt for a good running single for all the less cables and wiring. A vhf goes a long way to adding redundancy to a well tuned single. If you are doing alot of inshore maneuvering,hassling with dual controls is a pain as well always having to look at the tachs etc. Those are for guys heading well offshore where they can set it and forget it for long periods of time. Just a thought.

[G Jacobson]

Damn, I wish I had access to this forum when I was drawing this thing up! More good points to ponder.

I may yet abandon the center console layout since there are so many apparent drawbacks to a CC on a boat this size. The suggestions to move the console aft make sense from the standpoint of balance and a softer ride but the tradeoff is losing the relatively large open space at the transom.

As for the twins, I am really stuck with them since the outboard well won't accomodate a larger single main motor AND a kicker (at least without offsetting the main somewhat). I did look into counter-rotation and found it was not available in lower HP units. The reason is I was told it isn't necessary below a certain HP range. While I knew about the issue of prop steer, I wasn't aware that syncing the motors so closely was that important. If there are significant handling issues, I will probably have to learn to deal with them. Besides, there will be some times when I actually am making relatively long runs, either on the Columbia or the ocean, - so it may be worth putting up with.

Anyway, here's yet another variation with the console moved even further aft and the lean significantly reduced to something around 12 degrees. I also moved the double fold-down seats to the front of the console and added a version with a bow-cover for better protection.

Geez, you guy's are tough .

[pipefitter]

That looks better,don't you think? As far as the dual motors,you may find it to be just fine. I just like simplicity in smaller boats and I already have enough things I have to work on which is everything. I wasn't trying to discourage,just a little consideration and speculations from a different view.You may end up showing us all a thing or 2 before it's over. Thanks for sharing the pics/drawings and letting us have a go at it.

[G Jacobson]

Yes it does look better, - thanks to your input. For some reason I just didn't think a straight vertical console looked right with this boat, but I did go too far with the lean. A little angle goes a long way sometimes. Don't hold back on the advice or concerns since I would much rather be "discouraged" reading a post, than on the water!

I doubt I will show anyone a "thing or 2" since I've been winging this project from the get-go. Just glad somebody enjoys the pics, and hopefully some of this discussion will be useful to others.

Feel free to have a go at this railing concept:

[Salted Nuts]

Hi again, if you keep the bow rail low it makes it much easier to climb over when coming to the boat ramp and beach.It's not really there to keep you in the boat, more to give you something to grab to hold the boat. If you have a look at www.fisherboats.com.au and look through their 500series boats it may give you some other ideas on cc's and layouts. These are very common boats here in Oz in the size you have. Regards, Pete

[warthog5]

most of my time will be freshwater fishing in the Columbia River and fly-fishing lakes.

Then forget the T-top. It will be in your way with fly fishing. The other thing is due to the length of this boat it will get out of proportion fast with a T-top.

T-top's usually have their leg's on the outside of the console. This start's adding up real fast with your widened console.

Suggestion is to install a small mount on the front of the windshield frame and stick a beach umbrella in it.

You will not be able to have the umbrella up when your running, but you will get some shade when your hanging out.

[warthog5]

I agree with Salted Nuts on the bow rail.

The one you have drawn really tak's away from the line's.
Lot's of folk's in my circular of people remove the bow rail's all together to give a cleaner looking boat, plus your back to the fly fishing thing again. that sucker will be in the way.

Here's a alternitive. This is on a 17 Key West that I installed the trolling motor on.

[G Jacobson]

Salted Nuts,

Thanks for the feedback on the rail. I drew that version up thinking it was to keep people in the boat. I also appreciate the link. Many of those Fisher boats are very close to what I've had in mind.

Warthog5,

I had similar thinking about the T-top getting in the way. I also thought the high rail was a bit distracting and would be a pain while fly-fishing, - but safety does come before aesthetics. Since the railing is intended to be a handhold, I may simply build a raised coaming instead.

BTW, I love the lines of that Key West!

Here's a lower profile railing:

[pipefitter]

Looking better all the time .

[RodB]

My flats boat is used exclusively for flyfishing whether in the Florida Keys or on the Texas coast but the bottom has only a six degree deadrise.

http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulleti...ght=flats+boat




I have windsurfed on the Columbia River for a couple of weeks and that water is sure choppy when the wind gets up. I wouldn't presume to know a lot about what you may want or need but be sure to have a good grab rail around your windshield (or on top of your console) if you will be in rough water. My grabrail is very convenient when things get rough...everybody hangs onto it...

Running 5-8 miles along Sugarloaf Key in south Florida, with three foot of swell...the grabrail sure is handy.

I stacked my batteries (different from the drawing) on a shelf with the crank battery [Optima] on top, and the deep cycle Trojan on the bottom... as I wanted to keep what space I had in the boat and wanted large decks for flycasting. My console allowed for both a 40 gallon tank, two batteries, and a storage compartment in the front. Just do plenty of homework in figuring out what all you will need to make your boat a functional fishing machine.

Good luck,

RB

[G Jacobson]

Rod,

Nice, - really nice flats boat! Chasing 100# Tarpon on the flats with a fly rod is something I've dreamed about for years. My wife and kids used to talk about going to Disney World. I'd say, "fine, I'll drop you guys off in Orlando, - I'm heading to the Keys!" Of course that wouldn't actually happen, but it was a good way to get the "you're about to be neutered" stare from the wife.

I do plan on adding some kind of grabrail or handholds to the console. You're right about the Columbia getting "choppy", - especially in the Gorge (where a couple of my favorite fly fishing spots are). Fortunately I don't fly fish out on the open river where the "chop" sometimes builds into swells that break over the top of barges!

Also, thanks for the console diagram. Placing the fuel tank under the front console seat might actually work for my boat.



pipefitter,

Glad you like the changes. Hopefully it still looks good in color:

[katiedobe]

Great Post! I am getting a lot of good info to use on setting up my CC boat. I am modifying the interior layout of the Quick and Easy 16 that I am building.
G.Jacobson you are right these guys are a tough crowd but they give some good info and like you said better to be disapointed on land than at sea.

I have a followup question for MMD;
Why is it better to have weight aft in a planing boat? I was planning on putting 12 gal of gas under the center console/front seat. The thinking is that 80% of the time I will be alone in the boat and I did not want the bow to be pointing skyward. I don't have a hydraulic trim adjustment on my 25hp Honda to make adjusting the bow angle easy when underway. I figured that the extra weight amidships and along the centerline will make the boat trim out better.
So should I put these two 6 gal tanks in the two back areas beside the motorwell where the drawing shows it. Wow now that I wrote that it seems like a no brainer. But my question is won't the boat "squat" in the back with all that weight?
Thanks

[reeljob]

THat's a good looking hull. Post #27 looks the best IMO. I fish in the ocean a lot off Morehead City, NC- and center console boats are excellent ocean going boats. You see just as many if not more CC's out in the ocean as enclosed boats. Take a look online at Parker and Jones Brothers- two very good boats made in NC. Look especially at the Jones Brothers Cape Fisherman. If you want to see what I mean about CC's being capable of some nasty stuff, take a look at Regulator. ALso one heck of a boat.

In my opinion having two small twins on a small boat is not the best idea. Two Merc 25 EFI's weigh 314 lbs, and one 50 EFI weighs 248 lbs. Relieability was an issue a long time ago, but with today's motors and technology it is not that much of an issue. My advice would be to go with a single- less weight, lots less hassle, maintenance is not two times as expensive,. Get SeaTow (or Boat US if you don;t have Sea Tow in your area). So far, having Sea Tow has saved us about $1000 for the around 100 membership fee. Having a boat and not having SeaTow is ridiculous. If your engine conks out, they will come for a fuel drop, try to help you get it started, if they have to, give you a tow back in. This would be much more economical than twins. As far as a single and a kicker, you are still better iff just having a single and getting the extra peace of mind that comes with SeaTow.

[pipefitter]

G.J. The boat looks even better in color. I like the idea of the fuel tank in the console.
Katiedobe,I know you are waiting on mmd's reply to the weight aft issue but I am going to comment on it anyway. Most planing hulls the fuel of any decent capacity is carried just aft of amids or right under the helm. The only advantage of weight aft is for shorter fuel lines,wiring harneses etc. But small planing boats usually need the beam of the boat to carry the weight. The motor weight is usually enough borderlining heavy aft.Some small planing boats with tiller wont even plane without a passenger up front but will just point skyward and run in circles even with moderate throttle just above idle. We used to take our 14' jon boats,lock the motor(15hp) on straight,start them,put to wide open and simultaneously run to the front of the boat and steer by leaning from side to side. When we wanted to stop,just moving aft would act as a brake as the stern dug a hole while simultaneously shutting the motor down. It depends on the boat but most designed for center consoles carry their weight roughly amid. RodB's boat is a perfect example of a standard center console layout. In my Simmons case,it was designed to carry weight forward. There is hardly any noticeable change when shifting weight from console forward while under way because there is trim built into the hull. There is a difference of 200rpms when going from the forward console seat to bow but the trim of the boat is basically unchanged.Now put both people behind the console and there is a 4-600 rpm difference but great when it gets rough.Before setting anything permanent,I left the fuel tanks and batteries moveable and tried different configurations on sea trial with porta tanks.

[G Jacobson]

katiedobe,

Glad to hear someone else is getting good info from this thread. It almost feels like "cheating" getting free access to all this experience!

reeljob,

Thanks, it took a couple of year of fussing over the hull lines before I had something that looked good AND faired in 3D. It feels GREAT to know my hard work looks good to other boat builders too.

As for the twins, I also have my reservations about them. Besides the added weight, potential handling problems, and complicated controls, - you're right that it's just a lot more expensive per horsepower. Even so, it's a different story fishing the ocean here in the NW. Ninety-five percent of the time, we have an onshore wind. Couple that with a rough coastline and significant surf, even on "good" days, - and you have a situation that makes Sea-Tow an unlikely option when losing power close to shore. I dunno, maybe you're right about the newer outboards being reliable, but having grown up with the some really old ones, - I don't trust ANY of them.

Still, I may look into Sea-Tow since I have delusions of chasing Albacore the few times a year they're no more than 10-15 miles offshore (BTW, there were 2 Dorado caught off the Oregon coast this year!).

Thanks again everyone.

[RodB]

Great looking color pic ...one of the sweetest powerboat profiles I've seen. What is the hull design? Yours?

I agree with Pipefitter... I intended to use plastic garbage cans with water in them for weight distribution tests in my boat to figure out positively how the boat would float before installing the center console... but as things turned out, I didn't have that luxury...so I consulted my hull designer, Tracy Obrien, and he suggested putting the two stacked batteries and the 40 gallon Polyethylene fuel tank right over the cg of the hull. I didn't consider the floatation pods on transom in the equation at all.

I also knew that many times two people would be standing or sitting at the helm station...so I ended up with the cg line right in the middle between of the batteries and the fuel tank. As fuel burns the boat does not change in weight distribution...so floats the same. I was trying for a hull that would more or less float level most of the time to achieve the shallowest draft at all times.

Another thing, I started out with a clean bottom hull that was very slick and did a lot of sliding when turning in initial tests. I ended up installing two 4' runners on the bottom to afford some "bite" when turning and to make for good tracking.

End result: A hull that floats level... but tends to bow up a few inches since the runners were installed. The drag of the runners is not all that noticable in speed but they do keep water from escaping from the centerline outwards towards the chine...which ends up being more drag at the stern...which causes the bow to ride up perhaps 3-6 inches higher than before the runners were installed. She can easily be induced to elevate the bow when running at planing speeds...which is fine in rougher waters... SO DON'T PUT TOO MUCH WEIGHT IN THE STERN. Once planing, my hull stays pretty much on top of the water and more or less level with a slight bow up attitude...but most of this is controlled with trim, jet pump distance from transom and location, and the plate added to the boat bottom at the transom...

You never know how a hull will run on a plane untill you try it, but I would start at a point in weight distribution where she floats more or less level at rest and at slow speeds...and I would try for an interior design that did not change weight distribution as fuel was consumed.

Good luck...

RodB

[pipefitter]

G.Jacobson,
I know you have probably said but what do you expect hull weight to be when finished? Have you started to build the console yet? Have you had any glitches in the construction process?Is it self bailing?If you have onshore winds likely,did you consider a valence across the rear of the motorwell(even if removeable) to stop a following sea from breaking within the well?

[pipefitter]

RodB. I like in the console drawing that you included "eye height" and all the relativity to the windshield,leaning post height,helm height and positioning. You wouldn't believe how many boats I work on where you can't reach the helm properly from the leaning post hunched over it leaning on one's arms looking like it would pitch one over the console if they rubbed a bar.Alot of people put 30" leaning posts in where there is a sit down console.

[G Jacobson]

Rod,

That's a great compliment, thanks! And yes, it is my design although I have to credit the inspiration to a design my Dad created in the late 60's (an awesome little skiff I might add!).

Unfortunately I can only guess where the CG is at this point, and will probably have to float the unfinished hull to pin it down (although I do have a model, - hmm). Good point about placing the fuel near the CG to avoid trim changes while underway. That pretty much seals my decision to place the console and gas tank very near the CG. Also, good info on the runners. I've already installed 4 "planing strakes" with intent to aid tracking and lowering planing speed. Didn't think about them increasing drag though.

pipefitter,

I have to claim ignorance as to the hull weight. I know that I can barely lift the stern by myself, so a very rough ballpark guess is around 400lbs in it's current condition (basically an empty shell).

I have not started any of the interior work, other than the structure around the transom and outboard well.

There have been plenty of "glitches" during construction. One of the most time consuming was finding the the bottom was hogged significantly just fore of the transom (not the stern). This took more fairing than I liked, but was finally able to correct it.

Since I don't know the resting waterline, and haven't decided on the final floor level as yet, - I don't know if it will be self-bailing at rest. At the very least it should be while on plane.

And yes, I absolutely plan on installing a removable valence across the rear of the well for that exact reason!

[pipefitter]

I think it's going to be a fine boat. The console placement and other considerations in your drawing look right in relation to the hull.

[katiedobe]

Thanks Pipefitter. What you said confirms what I was thinking. My thoughts were that the tiller boats I was driving down here always point the bow up to high, unless I put an extra gas tank up in the bow and have my wife sit up there. So I am going to continue with the idea of the gas tanks under the center console and put the battery back in a sealed compartment right in front of the motor and on the c/L of the boat.

I was also thinking that I would leave the bow compartment unsealed and see if I can achieve better trim and handling with no major loss in performance by adding ballast to the bow. The purpose of my boat will be to tour the lake, pull water doughnuts, go snorkeling on the reefs out at Mahaual, etc. So I don't need lots of compartments, the under seat ones will be just fine.

G. Jacobsen,
I love your computer graphic drawing program, what are you using?
Is your dad still around and going to get a chance to go for a ride?

Take this or leave it, especially since I know how much you invested in finding those two motors but for the environmental sake and the fact that some very savvy boat builders have given you a few good reasons maybe you should sell those two strokes and buy a nice reliable 4 stroke Honda or Yamaha? I know about the Oregon coast, I am from Portland, born and raised, and I can appreciate the concern but maybe you are putting too much concern into a non-issue. I was a daily reader of the local Oregonian since I was 10 and I cannot remember any small craft being dashed upon the coastal rocks due to engine failure. Most of the time it is a swamping due to wave action or too much weight on one side of the small craft pulling up a crab pot when a wave comes in and the people who die are the ones without a life jacket. Also how many times have you been at a fishing site (buey 10 or the mouth of the Tillamook) and not seen at least 5 other boats? You probably won't be alone if you are close to shore and in danger of foundering in case of a motor failure. Think about it, you are either going to be motoring close inshore trolling or 5 miles off shore drifting with your motor off. Very rarely will your motor just quit on you if you have gas and it is running so I don't think you will be in danger when near shore. And if you are off shore and the boat won't start just use your Radio or wave to someone to help you.

Just my two cents. Good looking boat!!

[RodB]

Personally I would opt for a quality two stroke (Yamaha or Tohatsu or the new Etec) which allows for much lighter weight and plenty of reliability and power. Four strokes need more maintenance compared to a high quality two strokes and weight too damn much.

Also, you might check with Inca molded products...they make very good polyethylene OEM fuel tanks which last forever and they make many sizes. I found the F40 tank which maximized the space in my console with up to 40 gallons.

RB

[pipefitter]

I also agree about the 2 strokes. Fuel economy and noise doesn't really start to become an issue until you start getting in large boats over 100hp. Alot of the noise issues were before the advent of underwater exhaust.Ecology,thats probably moot now with the etec engines running as quiet and low emissions. I guess if I was to do alot of idling or in the presence of many no wake zones, I might consider a 4 stroke but for now,I am still holding belief to less moving parts equals less things to go wrong.

[G Jacobson]

katiedobie,

Thanks for the comments. Also, good questions regarding weight distribution and trim. Those discussions are helping me too.

As for my "graphics" program, I'm almost ashamed to admit I did the drawings using plain old MS Paintbrush in bitmap format. One of these years I'll get out of the stone age and buy some decent software.

And yes, Dad is still around and doing pretty well for 83. He learned boat building from his Dad who imigrated from Norway around 1900. Before Grandpa came to the states he worked in Bergen as a shipwright. Now that I have the hull off the jig I'm hoping to take it up to Dad's shop where we can finish the interior. I'll have to post some pics of his boats one of these days.

Regarding the motors, it is tempting to go with a bigger single, - so much simpler, etc... The twins may indeed turn out to be a mistake but I designed the boat around the idea of twins in an outboard well. Changing it now would be going against the original design concept. Besides, I've never heard of twin outboards in a well before, and I'm very curious to see if it works.

You're right though, I can't remember hearing about a boat being "dashed on the rocks" after losing power either.

Rodb and pipefitter,

I also feel 2-strokes are better for my needs for the reasons you both mention. My motors are new (2005) 25's and weigh around 115lbs each if I remember correctly. Together they are roughly equivalent to a 50hp 4-stroke (and possibly weigh less).

Also thanks for the info on Inca molded products.

[katiedobe]

Good points about reliability, weight to hp ratio, etc. So as far as environmental issues etec means no more oily discharge? Cool.
Good to know.

[pipefitter]

I saw an etec run "indoors" and there was hardly any smell or smoke or noise. I had to ask if it was running or if the pisser was just draining from before.Sure was quiet at idle.

[RodB]

If those Etec's match up to their claims in the long run, I think they may blow out all the four strokes in the market...

RB

[katiedobe]

Wow!!! Lightweight, quiet, powerful, reliable and no more damaging to the environment than a 4 stroke!!! I am so glad. The four strokes are quiet but HEAVY and that means the back end squats more.
So is ETEC a brand or a standard imposed by the gov't?

[RodB]

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/E-Tec/...wn.Operate.htm


Excerpt from Evinrude's site....on ETEC engines...


NO SCHEDULED DEALER MAINTENANCE FOR 3 YEARS.
ZERO BREAK-IN PERIOD
NO COSTLY OIL CHANGES
USES UP TO 30-75% LESS OIL THAN COMPETITIVE TECHNOLOGIES
EASY TO OWN AND OPERATE Evinrude E-TEC outboards require no scheduled dealer maintenance - that's right, zero - for the first three years or 300 hours of normal recreational use. Not even gearcase lube. You'll never have to change the oil or the oil filter, which can cost several hundred dollars each year for other technologies.

Evinrude E-TEC uses up to 75% less than typical 2-stroke carbureted engines and up to 50% less oil than competitive direct injection engines (when run with Evinrude/Johnson XD 100T oil with optional dealer programming of the Engine Management Module, versus normal TCW3 oil). And you'll use 30% less oil compared to a 4-stroke with a typical maintenance schedule under normal operating conditions.

That's just the start. The Evinrude E-TEC engines use an exclusive low friction design. There are no belts, no chains, no powerhead gears, no cams, and no mechanized oil pumps.

No Oil Changes

Auto Lube

Easy to Own

Looking at E-TEC

http://www.evinrude.com/en-US/E-Tec/...wn.Operate.htm

RB

[G Jacobson]

Good info on the new 'Rudes. If I were going with a single the saltwater 90 would be tempting. My understanding is that the newer Merc's are still heck of a lot cleaner than older 2-strokes.

[pipefitter]

All the newer 2 strokes are cleaner than the older 2 strokes. Why? EFI and electronic ignitions and better porting configurations,better oiling efficiencies and computer controlled on the fly tuning with more synthetic lubrication choices etc.The only thing left missing is that they still haven't gotten the efficiencies figured out with the horsepower to weight ratios like they have with cars. That aspect seems to have gotten worse than better but thats more because of the market and all the creature comforts the modern consumer has to take with them to go boating now or camping or anything else. Electronic gadgets and the kitchen sink has made a 23ft boat that needs 200+ hp where a equally sized boat of yesterday could have gotten by with 90hp. It's amazing what we will pay to get that extra 15mph and still not feel like we left the comfort of our living rooms. Believe me,they could do alot better but not while matching the modern egos of the modern sportsman.