Service/Therapy dogs, etc.

[Donn]

Rather than continue to hijack the Uncas thread, here's one you can use to discuss the subject.

Dogs can be trained to do a variety of jobs, from sniffing out dead bodies (cadaver dogs) to anticipating various forms of seizure; from providing unconditional love for the unloved to being the eyes/ears of the blind/deaf.

The people who train them for these tasks range from unpaid volunteers to highly paid professionals. The work for themselves, and for large organizations, both profit and non-profit in nature.

The organizations doing the training set their own rules for certification and re-certification, and their customers choose accordingly.

The dogs performing these duties carry a number of initial characterizations after their registered names, indicating their status with the various certifying organizations:

TDI = Therapy Dog International
TT = Temperament Tested (American Temperament Testing Society)
CGC = Canine Good Citizen

Any more questions?

[ishmael]

Brother, as I've mentioned, has a Lab pup. He complains about her lack of manners, and it makes sense. He's not working her, at all.

He needs to work her, twenty minutes, twice a day. Formal, on lead some of it.

Dogs are capable of amazing things. And they like being told what to do. When they're uncontained, subject to our whims about their behavior but without a regimen they, understandably, get confused. Human issues, not dog.

I sent him the monk book. I hope he takes the time to work with her a bit.

[Paul Pless]

The dog in my Avatar, his name is Eros.

I can't claim much of the following credit other than that he came from my kennel. He belongs to my mom.

He's got:

• a Canine Good Citizen (CGC)
• a Companion Dog (CD)
• he's an AKC Champion
• he's got a herding title
• he's completed TDI testing and certification this previous week

my brother deserves most of the credit for the training and travel, and my mom for the excellent socialization put on this dog since he 8 weeks old.

[Bob Cleek]

Ah, Grasshopper... you DID read the "Monk Book!"

I would mention that "CGC," the "Canine Good Citizen" title is not necessarily a designation for any of the working dogs, but rather an AKC title available to ANY dog (purebred or not, intact or not) that can pass the test. The CGC tests are often given at local AKC dog shows. Basically, the CGC demonstrates that the dog is well socialized with people, will recall on command, sit and stay and heel on lead. Basic skills that any decent dog should have.

Many local humane societies have "puppy classes" or the like which will teach you the skills to train your dog to the level of CGC. I really believe that every dog owner should make sure that their pooch can pass the CGC, even if they don't take the test and get the certificate. A well trained dog is a joy to be around. Frankly, too many dog owners fail to learn the skills of training a dog, satisfied that a "cute pet" that doesn't poop on the living room floor is a "good dog." In fact, a well trained dog can do just about anything and is a valuable companion and asset.

BTW Meer, how's your little one coming along?

Paul, congratulations on Eros, that is quite a list of titles! I don't think I've ever seen that many on one dog! Everyone should know that the "CD" ("Companion Dog") and the herding title take huge amounts of training and particularly good intelligence. For instance, IIRC, a CD requires a dog in obedience competition, among other skills, to sit and stay along with all the other dogs in the competition, in a line, while the handlers leave the ring, AND REMAIN THERE ON THAT SPOT, for five full minutes, and then after all the handlers return to the ring, return to their handler, heel and sit, on the command "come!" This isn't something they have to do only once, either. They have to do all the exercises sufficiently well over a period of competitions, earning points or "legs" until they acquire enough to qualify for the title. Can your dog do that? VERY impressive dog and a very justified brag!

[Meerkat]

Kip has been passed on to someone who can better take care of him that I can right now. She will bring him over for visists as necessary/possible. He has bonded with her invalid son who seems to have taken a new lease on life from the relationship.

They have a backyard, so Kip can go out and do his thing as necessary.

From what I hear, he's having a ball and I'm glad he's in such good hands.

[Meerkat]

Who deserves the credit for the overly well fed appearance?

Genes?

[Meerkat]

On that note, I think I'll bow wow out of this one! It could get frisky!

[Donn]

Dogs need an organization, preferably controlled by federal law, which prevents people who have no sense of responsibility from owning them.

[Paul Pless]

Thankyou Bob, I think he is the most titled dog ever from our kennel. But since the 1950's our family's kennel has produced a few hundred titled dogs, including many multi titled dogs - mainly obedience/confirmation or hunter/confirmation combinations.

[Paul Pless]

Dogs need an organization...

agreed, its certainly not the AKC

however, many of the individual breed clubs do a good job.

[Katherine]

When I bought Chancie, I signed paperwork for his breeder agreeing to have him fixed before his 1st birthday. He has the genetic problem collies sometimes have with their eyes. He's a fine companion, but not for breeding stock.

[ishmael]

I don't think, being a libertarian at heart, that we need more federal laws about dog ownership, though there are clearly problems, and abuses.

About every half year there's a story here of some ugly kennel, busted by the state.

After Sheba died I wanted another dog. But measuring my interests and capacities I gave it up about a year ago. Taking on a dog is a fair responsibility, and a piece of work. I may be ready again, but not just now.

[Bob Cleek]

Every breeder should feel responsible for every dog they whelp. We have written sales contracts on all the dogs we sell. (These are culls from our competition stock. We aren't a "puppy mill.") The contract provides that we will take the dog back and refund the purchase price in full at any time for six months after purchase, for any reason or no reason, no questions asked. After six months, we don't refund the purchase price, but will take back any dog any time if the owner can no longer care for it. Unless a dog is sold to another competitor as show stock (a rare occurrence), all our dogs are sold with a "spay/neuter contract." The purchaser does not get the dog's purebred registration papers until we see the vet's certificate that they have been spayed or neutered. This is as much as we can do to prevent folks from "letting her have just one litter so the kids can witness the miracle of birth!" Besides, we value our stock and don't want to see it all over the place, bred to whatever comes along.

Frankly, "unfinished" (untitled non-champion) dogs should not be bred except in very rare circumstances (like before they finish if they are sure to do so). Folks should not purchase dogs from anybody who isn't actively showing their stuff and working to maintain breed type and healthy stock. I shudder when I see ads, even for kennels with fancy names, that advertise "puppies always available." We've NEVER advertised a dog for sale and ALWAYS have a waiting list of homes for our culls. As far as I'm concerned, if they are advertised, odds are they are breeding for profit. Nothing wrong with profit per se, but it is impossible (so says I) to breed dogs well and responsibly and make any sort of profit on it at all. It is a labor of love.

[ishmael]

Nova did a program on dogs, that was rebroadcast a week ago. Interesting. I hadn't relised how much line breeding goes on in the purebred business.

They interviewed a guy, an ethologist and dog breeder, who was really critical of how the 'purebred' ethic was playing out. He saw it as the source of much of the problem, overbred dogs.

[Meerkat]

Breeder snobs. "Line breeding" is just a polite term for incest.

As for federal regulation of dog owners, federal regulation of human breeding makes more sense - and would probably be just as popular, which is to say not at all.

[Katherine]

I rarely have a problem with dogs. It's the owners I find to be asses.

[Meerkat]

Can we regulate ass breeding?

Oh, wait!...

[Katherine]

I can't say anything around here can I.

[Ken Hutchins]

Bob, how is this for titles all performance agility and obedience. Shirl's Norfolk Aeley.
UCD Chantilly's AElfwyn of Berrybrow
CDX, AX, AXJ, OAC, NJC, O-NGC, TN-N, GS-N, RS-N, TDI, CL2, CL3-R/H, TBAD, CGC
(AElz - Norfolk on a Mission)
Front & Finish US National Ratings - Agility and Obedience Top Dogs - Norfolk Terriers
2006 AKC top Norfolk female in agility
2004 - Ex A&B - 4th, Front & Foremost - Open - 1st, Delaney Rating - Open - 2nd
2003 - OA - 2nd, CD - 4th

[Bob Cleek]

Sounds like another spectacular dog there! Folks don't know how hard it is to compete with obedience and agility dogs. The training is arduous, but the satisfaction is great!

Ahem... as for what was improperly referred to as "line breeding," it really isn't done by reputable breeders. And there is a difference between "line breeding" and "in breeding," although some do use the term to excuse poor breeding practices. Properly, "line breeding" is working with particular dogs to develop genetic traits you wish to favor. Think "blondes to blondes," "brunettes to brunettes." Unfortunately, many breeders more interested in money than bettering the breed will pretty much throw whatever they have on hand together, often too closely related, in order to produce a litter for sale. Reputable breeders frequently "out cross" their stock to introduce traits they want while maintaining their own "line" at the same time. NO breeding should be attempted unless the sire and dam's pedigrees have been carefully studied with an eye to achieving a particular result... not just more dogs.

[Meerkat]

I've seen plenty of dog pedegrees where "grandpa" gets "grandaughter" and vice versa! Sheesh!

[ishmael]

Genetics wasn't my strong suit. "Line breeding" was my term, but what the complaint was about was close crosses like Meer mentioned, grandfather to granddaughter in order to get a particular conformation, continued over generations. Is this a common practice, Bob, even among some reputable breeeders? The show gave the impression that it was.

The ethologist said, and it makes sense, that we should be doing more breeding for temperment. Most dogs, afterall, aren't going into the show ring.

I always cheer when the state busts a scudzy puppy mill. Some people shouldn't be allowed to tie their own shoes. The sanctions levied always seem too light. Probation, community service, etc. Maybe give them fleas, and ticks, and lock them in a too small cage without enough food for a few months, see how they like it.

[cs]

Bob after having meet Euros I can vouch for him being an outstanding dog. If I could ever talk the wife into letting me get a Rottie, I give Paul another visit. In fact if he had turned his back long enough when I was there I might have had a rottie.

Chad

[Mrleft8]

Carter wanted to take Webster in to work one day last year. She has a 1 1/2 hour train commute. I suggested that she put dark glasses on him, and wear a bright yellow vest with "Seeing eye person" stenciled on the back.

[ishmael]

An ongoing discussion between brother and I is how much discipline? He keeps saying that his last dog, Zela, was an egg, an easy critter, and the new one, Tillah, is a handful. It's got me chuckling, and also trying to help, out of my small knowledge.

Sheba was an egg, too. Pretty easy. Her one fault was that she was irrepressible around people. I tried, and finally gave up. She was just going to be a goof around people. I did get her to obey, in small ways. When we were around toddlers I just put her on a leash. Not because she had any intention of hurting them, because there was no stopping her wiggle, and that wiggle might well hurt a wee one.

There are worse things in a dog.

[Paul Pless]

Dang Ken, that's a pretty imppressive list. Congratulations. Somebody and their dog has worked very hard there.

[htom]

There are some very impressive dogs here, indeed.

Katherine, what the world seems to need is HGC training (Human Good Citizen).

[Bob Cleek]

I would say that a grandfather to granddaughter would be way too close for comfort. Remember, though, that since dogs are bred to different mates each breeding, there are a lot of "half-siblings." That does create a greater mix in gene pools. There is a lot of misunderstanding regarding the genetics. Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with "in breeding" if, in theory, you don't have any "bad genes." It's a process of addition. Every dog (and person!) has dominant and recessive genes which contribute to bad traits. Consider hemophilia in the European royal families. That gene was passed down through the maternal line. I can't say I know about hemophilia, but if it is like a lot of traits, you would not get hemophilia if you bred a father with it to a mother without. On the other hand, if you bred a mother with it and a father with that gene, you would. And if you bred a mother with it to a father without, you might or might not get it, or the female offspring might be carriers. And so on. It all depends on what's there. If the gene pool is smaller, such as when breedings are too close, the odds of the gene turning up are much greater (as when the royals were all marrying their cousins... Queen Victoria was a carrier as I recall.) Responsible breeders try to identify the bad genes which create the common dog problems like hip displasia and glaucoma and "breed away" from it. Dogs which exhibit those problems should NEVER be bred. So, it isn't always the closeness of the breeding that makes the difference, but what you are combining and how those genes interact that count. The closer you breed, the greater the likelihood that a bad one will pop up. Of course, the same applies for "good genes." That's the challenge of breeding purebred animals.

[Katherine]

Katherine, what the world seems to need is HGC training (Human Good Citizen).

Yep, and I could think of several around here who wouldn't qualify. Hell, at least Chancie never ignores me.

[ishmael]

Thanks, Bob. I'd need to sit down and study it, diagram the crosses, look at the results, but your explanation is about as clear a simple study as I've seen.

I took a year of genetics, half in the lab with the fruitflys, half in the classroom with the theory, and I never was any damn good at it. I was always more interested in what a fellow creature did in the world, and not where its genes came from. I managed to pull good grades, but only because I felt I had to, and it was a struggle. Lot's of midnight oil.

Tillah, Bill's new Labrador, is out of American stock, so she's going to be leggy, as opposed to the British stock that is chunky. It sounds like she's pretty headstrong. I imagine the breeding of the American stock for speed, and field agility, has affected her temperment. She's not going to be as easy as his last Lab, Zela, but she sounds like a good natured beast.

He's read the monk book I sent. He's not very good on the follow through. I think Tillah is going to take some disciplined follow through in order to be a dog you want in company. I'll keep dropping subtle hints. Being the older brother, he doesn't take advise easily. But he did get her a proper lead and collar the other day, so there's hope.