Bay Laurel & Madrone: how are these as boat wood?

[dmede]

I'm trying to use local woods as much as possible in my skiff build and I know of a few local sources for some of these trees from around my area. Does anybody know what the qualities of either California Laurel or Madron are with repect to wooden boats? Rot resistence, movment, glue adhesion etc. and apperance since I might use one of them for the rub rails.

Thanks,
dave

CA Laurel is also known as Pepperwood.

[Bob Cleek]

Madrone is a wonderfully figured hardwood. It is somewhat difficult to cure, though. It has a tendency to split when it shrinks. The grain is not much for getting out planks of any size, certainly. It can be a nice wood for small items. Pen turners love it. Other than interior cabinetry, I wouldn't see it as having much application in boat building.

Ah, now "bay," or "California laurel" is another thing entirely. This stuff is also known as "Oregon myrtlewood." It is another wonderfully figured wood which is available is good lengths and very wide planks can be gotten out of it as the trunks of a large specimen can be huge. It isn't so widely distributed, growing frequently along creek banks, that it is commercially harvested on a regular basis. If you can get some milled, though, it is a great finish wood for interior cabinet work. It's application in structural boatbuilding applications is another matter. I am not aware of its being used for that purpose, but I can't be sure whether this is because it is more valuable as a finish wood than good boatbuilding stock, or because it is not suitable. You can check its characteristics (strength, rot resistance) in a reference work and make your own decision. I'm betting you would be bucks ahead to sell the myrtlewood at the going rate and buy good boatbuilding stock, though.

Back when WoodenBoat was in the single digit issue numbers (and less interested in fibreglassed surfboards than real traditional boatbuilding), Bob Daar (now of the Arques School in Sausalito) wrote a good article on harvesting local timber for boat building. His "local" was Northern California. You might want to give him a call at Arques and ask him what he thinks. He's da man!

[dmede]

I actually wrote Arques a couple months back about that very topic, harvesting local wood. Never heard back, but they might not spend as much time in front of a computer as I do

I'll try him on the phone instead.

Do you know the isse number of the article your talkng about?

By they way, I was a little irritated with the surfboard article too, and I'm from Hawaii!

[Bob Smalser]

... He's da man!

Talk to me, David, before you go deaf, get hurt, or both.

The article I saw on Arques milling lumber may have been a good student introduction to the stoicism necessary to see projects through, but wasn't the best way to do it at all.

[dmede]

Talk to me, David, before you go deaf, get hurt, or both.

The article I saw on Arques milling lumber may have been a good student introduction to the stoicism necessary to see projects through, but wasn't the best way to do it at all.

Thanks Bob, if I ever started thinking about cutting and milling my own logs I would definitely want your input. I was contacting Arques about finding out how they source thier wood, hoping I might get some refernces to local sawyers and the like. I do keep an eye out for small downed wood that I might be able to get a few smalish boards out of off my bandsaw, but thats pretty small stuff (and no luck so far anyway).

Since I've got your ear, what's your opionion of madrone and laurel as boat wood? I'm thinking of using it for parts like the guards, and for laminated quarter knees & the breasthook.

[Donn]

Madrone looks spendy. A quick Google finds a woodworking shop selling a 20 bd ft 'project pak' for $220. 4/4, 3-7" wide, 4-8' long.

[Dave Fleming]

Madrone, Pepperwood (?), and several other west coast species were used from time to time in small craft.

Bob Darr, I have mentioned this before, had a boat shop out on the water in Marshall right near the old hotel back in the early 1960's.

He was insistent that his dad had learned the secret of using Euc's to make ribs for small boats.

He tried and tried any number of times to do it but, to no avail.

BrianM, was speaking of an Urban Forester in the East Bay some time back.
Bet if the outfit is still in business they would have some interesting potential small boat bits and pieces.

Did you ever hit the apple orchards up near Sebastapol or the fruit orchards out towards Vacaville/Davis area?

When several months ago we drove up to the Russian River area. Along I-5 we passed orchards, almonds, pistachios(sp),apricots, oranges with big piles of prunings laying here and there.

There is a sawmill off River Road heading west just before you hit Highway 1 in some little hamlet with the turnoff clearly marked. Who knows what they might have in the trash pile?

[dmede]

I've talked to so many different people about those damn knees/crotches I forget who I talked to anymore. I got in touch with an orchard near Sebastopol but they didn't have anything on the ground at the time. I need to follow up with them, but at this point if it's not already dry it's not going in this build.

I did find a bunch of what looked like walnut pruning last time I was on Hwy 4 going camping, but nothing that looked right, or big enough.

I found a sawyer in Saratoga who may have some live oak knees he can cut into slabs for me, but they would require around 2 years drying so it would be more for future speculation than anything.

Ive already passed on getting solid wood knees for my stem and transom and laminated both parts out of DF. Gotta get building!

[Bob Cleek]

"When several months ago we drove up the Russian River area along I-5 we passed orchards, almonds, pistachios(sp),apricots, oranges with big piles of prunings laying here and there."

No wonder we never got around to connecting when you were up last time, Dave! Pretty good trick that one, driving up the Russian River area along I-5! That's one detour I've never taken. (You had to mean US 101.) Must be the Oldtimer's Disease kicking in! LOL

BTW Dmede, take Smalser's advice. Daar's article (somewhere in issues one through maybe five) was pretty generalized. It didn't tell you exactly HOW to do it, as much as simply that it COULD be done. Back in those days, WB wasn't even printed in color. Google "urban forestry" and such. You should find the outfits that log and mill the small lot good stuff. There's one up around Sacramento that has a lot of interesting wood.

[Dave Fleming]

LOL...

Ayup Cleekster I sure garbled that one din't I?

No I meant that the majority of the trip north was done on I-5 till we hit the turnoff that takes you west over the grade with the windmills on top of the surrounding hills. Then the north/south freeway that goes near Martinez over to I-80 to the Richmond Bridge up 101 to River Road westward thru Gurneville then out to Highway 1.

I would never take 101 up thru SF to the Golden Gate and then the mess on 101 thru Marin-San Rafael-Novato to Petaluma.

That sound better?

[Hal Forsen]

Question for Doc Fleming, Bob Cleek and Bob Smalser;
Aren't most common fruit and nut woods suitable for boat building material? Small parts or large as the tree dictates of course.
HF

[Bob Smalser]

...what's your opionion of madrone and laurel as boat wood? I'm thinking of using it for parts like the guards, and for laminated quarter knees & the breasthook.

Madrone looks spendy. A quick Google finds a woodworking shop selling a 20 bd ft 'project pak' for $220. 4/4, 3-7" wide, 4-8' long.

While it can be gorgeous stock like these fresh, riftsawn flooring boards from a 240-year-old Madrone, it rots quickly, and it moves a lot seasonally. I wouldn't use it anywhere in a boat.







Madrone this good is so rare, I wouldn't have a clue what to charge for it. This stock I'm keeping.

[Dave Fleming]

Question for Doc Fleming, Bob Cleek and Bob Smalser;
Aren't most common fruit and nut woods suitable for boat building material? Small parts or large as the tree dictates of course.
HF

IMOOP, in general if the boat is an open boat. That means a small craft with plenty of air getting at things then most fruit woods should be fine.

Many are hard, durable, not prone to rot.

Walnut, Apple, Pear, are some expamples I have used with good results.
The comments in my previous post re: Madrone, Pepperwood are based on comments I was told by oldtimers years ago.
I have NO hands on experience with same.

I wouldn't be one to use woods that are not well researched in an enclosed vessel though.

[Bob Cleek]

Apple, pear and so on can be fine for knees in open boats and for various small pieces and trim work. Beyond that, it is really too nice for construction timber and is better traded out for more common boat building wood. Sell it to those guys who watch the New Yankee Workshop and make little jewelry boxes with their tens of thousands of dollars worth of power tools and use the proceeds to buy yourself some really nice clear Port Orford or Alaska Yellow cedar.

PS: Good Lord! That's one heckava madrone you've got there, Bob. Beautiful wood. Lucky you! Is that your Lucas mill and how do you like it?

[Joel Herzel]

Hi -

I know for a fact that Arques School was using this wood for structural members. I saw a boat of approximately 25' there under construction that used it for deadwood, horn timber and stern post if I remember correctly. This was back in 1998 or so.

I've heard before that they are not good about responding to letters and calls, but I know Bob Darr was a big fan of Laurel.

[FatBear]

I used to own ten acres in Oregon with a mixed forest on it. I had madrone, Oregon white oak, douglas fir, western red cedar, big leaf maple, etc. I harvested wood for a number of projects, but I only burnt the madrone in my woodstove. Someone said it "moves seasonally". I think "moves" is an understatement! :-) I have seen madrone shrink as much as 10-12% as it dried. It dries very hard and I honestly don't remember how well it will hold a screw. Oh - it is great for xylophone bars. I don't think I'd ever use it on a boat.

It sounds like you must live in northern CA or southwestern OR? If so, then there are other local woods which make much better boatbuilding lumber. Unless you really want to go "local exotic" I doubt that you can beat white oak ribs with Port Orford cedar planks. There's a reason those were conventional shipbuilding woods on the west coast before fiberglass.

--Brian

[Jay Greer]

While I have a lot of Madrone trees on my property, I use it primarily for cabinet and turning work. Due to the fact that it is tricky to dry and rots quite easily I consider it to be better suited for use other than in boats.
Brazilian Pepper, however, is another case. I value it for the crooks that can be gotten from it and use it for a variety of grown components in boat construction.
JG

[Bob Smalser]

Madrona is similar to American Beech as it shrinks severely in drying, and also warps badly if the wood is from the typical understory tree that bends and twists to reach the sun as it grows. But once it is seasoned, wood from the less common, straight-grained trees growing in the sun is straight enough to be used as a traditional flooring material here, and like beech, is more than stable enough to use for making fine tools.



So like all woods, how you can use it largely depends on the tree, as straight boards never come from twisted and crooked trees. If that's what your madrona log looks like, then mill it into short turning squares a full half-inch oversize, so they can be trued after drying.

[slipstream]

"When several months ago we drove up the Russian River area along I-5 we passed orchards, almonds, pistachios(sp),apricots, oranges with big piles of prunings laying here and there."

No wonder we never got around to connecting when you were up last time, Dave! Pretty good trick that one, driving up the Russian River area along I-5! That's one detour I've never taken. (You had to mean US 101.) Must be the Oldtimer's Disease kicking in! LOL

BTW Dmede, take Smalser's advice. Daar's article (somewhere in issues one through maybe five) was pretty generalized. It didn't tell you exactly HOW to do it, as much as simply that it COULD be done. Back in those days, WB wasn't even printed in color. Google "urban forestry" and such. You should find the outfits that log and mill the small lot good stuff. There's one up around Sacramento that has a lot of interesting wood.

I believe Bob is thinking of California Hardwoods on Highway #49 in Auburn
They are known Nationwide but locally they get trees planted (State capitol etc) a Hundred plus years ago and need to be cleared, they bring it there so the wood isn't wasted. If you go there ask for Dave a great guy and you will learn more about wood than as I did, suffered brain closure from too much info too fast. A side note to this is he has been working on trailerable solar kilns for drying lumber with the intent that if you are harvesting wood and rough cutting on site you can put it in a controlled dryer for pre-drying.

They are a small mill

He also imports wood and will custom mill.

hope this helps