Quick, minimal-epoxy, camp-cruising sailboat for 2?

[Steve Paskey]

Okay, some of you are probably going to give me a hard time, but here goes.

When I was married I commissioned John Welsford to design WALKABOUT, a sailing and rowing cruiser with room to sleep just one aboard. I never had a chance to get started on construction. Now I'm divorced, and dating a wonderful woman who loves the idea of camp-cruising on a small open boat. She's enthusiastic and has been urging me to build something we can sail and cruise in together.

The key criteria is simple construction: I have to be able to build this by next April, so that I can take a couple of months off to cruise before moving cross-country. That means: (a) it has to be quick to build, and (b) it has to use a minimum of epoxy, because heating my garage above 45 degrees or so in the winter isn't feasible unless I insulate the place. (I've tried.) I can't get this done unless I can do a lot of work under those conditions. (Though my sweetheart, bless her dear soul, did suggest that perhaps I could build a boat in the living room!) Even at that, anything that takes me more than 300 hours total probably won't get done in time (that's 10 hours a week if I start the first of October), and less is even better.

Other criteria: a cockpit big enough to sleep 2 under a tent; relatively light; no bigger than necessary; and oars (or a yuloh) for auxiliary power. I don't need the ability to row for hours at a time (as on Walkabout), but I do want to row for fairly short distances, say a mile or two after the wind dies or up a small creek. (I hate outboards.)

Jim Michalak's DEANSBOX is currently at the top of my list. An awful name for an interesting little design. 16 feet long, 5 foot beam, and 300 pounds. Sure it's a box (I prefer "sailing garvey"), but it's a well-thought out little box that seems to meet my criteria. Per John Brooks, I'd build it in Sapele ply, and avoid sheathing the ply in epoxy.



For details, see: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/ji...sbox/index.htm

Any other suggestions?

[Thorne]

Depending on what design you end up with, there has been some discussion on the commonsenseboats Yahoo group about using various fabrics and paint to seal the outside of ply boats.

Never tried it myself, but it sounds like a relatively similar process to the epoxy and glass fabric system -- just using polyester or other loose-weave fabrics and multiple coats of porch / floor paint.

More to the point would be the joints -- many of these ply boats use epoxy for the joints/ seams/ strakes, and finding an adhesive that has the filling ability and the strength might be a challenge. From the many posts on the subject, nothing currently can match epoxy, but a combination of PL Premium, 3M 5200, and other adhesives and fillers might do the trick...

[Don Maurer]

If you are planning to use sapele plywood, it would be a shame not to do a first rate job building it. I would buy a used sailboat for your cruise, then take the time to build the boat you really want afterward.

[Mike Vogdes]

Building something by April seems a tall order, but a boom tent over this cockpit will give you plenty of elbo room.
http://www.boatdesigns.com/products.asp?dept=459

[JimD]

This winter I'll be building a tarp tent inside the garage just big enough to epoxy a small boat under with a propane heater. The rest of the garage can stay cold. But our winters are a lot milder than yours.

[Steve Paskey]

If you are planning to use sapele plywood, it would be a shame not to do a first rate job building it. I would buy a used sailboat for your cruise, then take the time to build the boat you really want afterward.

That's not a bad idea, but I have two thoughts. First, I'm not sure what I'd buy that would be reasonably cheap, relatively small, camp two comfortably, and use oars for auxilliary. A Dovekie would work, but I used to own one and HATE the crawling space and the intrusion of the boom gallows. (I'm 6-4.) Everything else I can think of is too expensive (the Norseboat, at least $10K used IF you can find one); too crowded to sleep two comfortably (the Seapearl), or too high-sided for oars (a Mudhen). A Wayfarer dinghy might be worth looking at, but I've never seen one up close.

Besides -- and this is really part of the point -- I don't know what I really want (a "Jenny", maybe, but plans aren't available yet). I think Deansbox is a MUCH better platform for learning, for finding out what I want or don't want and like or don't like, than anything I could buy. After a couple of summers of playing with something like Deansbox, I'd be ready to build what I really want.

[StevenBauer]

The CNC cut Norseboat kits will be available soon. A half a dozen clamp lights with heatlamp bulbs is all you need to epoxy a lap seam. No need to heat the whole shop. Or maybe Iain Oughtred's Skerrieskiff 17. Flat bottom, two strakes per side. Faering lookalike. Designed to be built by schoolkids.






Boatbuilder Adam Way, who lives by the Crinan canal in Argyll, was asked to build two boats with the high-school kids at Lochgilphead. Within two weeks. Given this severe limitation, along with the inexperience of the prospective builders, and not knowing how good a teacher Adam would turn out to be, I thought this could be a disaster. Especially as, while frantically trying to prepare (with very moderate success) for the Glen Raid, I had not time to prepare proper construction plans. However, having a strong belief in the educational value of building boats, I really hoped it would work. I thought it was a good opportunity to try out my theory that, with a limited amount of time, a more shapely, attractive, and able boat could be built than the boxy flat-bottomed skiffs that are popular in the boat show boatbuilding weekends. He did great! They did fine. The two 17 footer boats were ready for launching in 10 days. Rough, sure. But they looked good (from a moderate distance), performed very well, and, above all, the kids loved it! They worked long and late, with an enthusiasm for learning that I suspect their teachers had never seen before. One guy, the woodwork teacher told me, still didn't know which end of chisel was which after two years. But now, "he knows how to shape up a stem!"

[Paul Fitzgerald]

A Banks dory is easy to build and row, and a beamy one sails quite well (such as Joe's Dove). The lapstrake planks on the side dont even need to be bevelled if you use Pete Culler's trick of padding the frames so each successive plank lap lies flat on the lower one.
John Gardner's book has quite a few plans for Banks dories. Pete Culler's book has a number of skiffs built the same way.

[JimD]

Steve, I think you should seriously look for a stitch and glue design or any design that could be built stitch and glue. The reason being that you can assemble virtually the entire boat and then get all the epoxying done in one day, two at the most.

[Bear's Oil]

I am in, essentially, the "same boat" as you! I have had several screw and glue boats over the years and have been very satisfied with that construction method. Fussing with epoxy in an unheated work area is NOT worth the effort.

Done properly, most any "goop and fabric" system will work for the seams. Any good exterior enamel over the proper primer will do for a final coat(s).

Did you consider any of Michalak's "Birdwatcher" designs? A nice compromise between an open boat and cabin type. A simple design executed properly can be as satisfying as more "sophisticated" endeavors. Jim is very good about answering any questions.

In regard to the new wife: If I wasn't already blissfully wed, I would be tempted to ask if she has a sister!!!

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

When you turn up your nose at epoxy you are guaranteeing that the build will take much longer.
There will be plenty from the screw-and-rivit crowd who will say ,"it's all so easy". But they, probably, developed their skills when there was no hard timeline on the horizon.
You need a boat that's fast to build, simple to rig, with a suitable readymade set of sails.
Jacques Mertens at bateau2.com has a catalog of sailboats that will satisfy all those demands but they are all epoxy/ply/'glass composits.

Charlie

[Keith Wilson]

What I'd suggest is Phil Bolger's Birdwatcher, or maybe the revised Birdwatcher 2. It's a little more complicated than Michalak's design, (most boats are) but sleeping aboard would be much more pleasant, and you have a cabin with unlimited headroom and no need for a tent. It's simple screwed plywood construction; a little epoxy for gluing is all you need. If you're not obsessive about finish (well, able to tolerate a pretty rough finish, actually) , I don't think 300 hours is at all unreasonable. There was a good article about it in WB #179

Here's a copy of the original article in SBJ from 1986:
http://www.hallman.org/bolger/Birdwatcher/

[Cec]

One last thing to consider... epoxy may not be flammable, but if you should have to thin it for any reason (which can happen) be sure to use a non-flammable mixture under that tarp....

[paladin]

Steve...check out system three's T-88 resin....it was "designed" by Gerry Schindler in the 60's for low temp work....I have used it in Thailand, Vietnam, Alaska and Iceland under extreme conditions...it just takes a little longer to set up....

[Keith Wilson]

Another vote for T-88. Great stuff. It's worthless for coating or fiberglassing, but for gluing only, I don't use anything else. It cures fine at 45F.

[Steve Paskey]

Don't get me wrong, Charlie, I'm not turning up my nose at epoxy. But I won't get much done between December and February unless I have a glue that will set properly at 45 degrees or so.

Chuck and Keith: Thanks for the info on T88 -- that's exactly the stuff I need. I remember seeing a reference to it in one of John Gardner's books, but didn't know it was still available.

[openboater]

if you and 2 buddies got 22 hours to spare, you could build one of these nice looking sharpies.

www.simplicityboats.com the daydream is down the page on the right

and no or minimal epoxy if you wish

or just go buy a used potter 15 .

[htom]

Maybe the Bolger Catfish? Scroll down, http://www.chebacco.com/chebacco_news/chebac12.htm and http://www.instantboats.com/catfish.htm

[rbgarr]

Didn't Bolger design some catamarans or proas that had a platform suitable for tent camping?

I also saw a design recently by a guy in the Pac NW who built an economical, simple power cat which provided a roomy stable platform for camping/outdoor life, could bottom out in the shallows, etc. Wish I could put my hands on that article!

[Steve Paskey]

I'm sure someone's designed a catamaran or proa like that, but I don't remember anything of the sort from Bolger, unless you're thinking of the power fishing catamaran he did.

if you and 2 buddies got 22 hours to spare, you could build one of these nice looking sharpies.

www.simplicityboats.com the daydream is down the page on the right

Funny you should mention Daydream -- I was looking at the design a few days ago. Add watertight storage fore and aft, with a 7-8 foot long cockpit in between, and there you go.

[sharpie]

How about Atkin's "Greenshank", or "Excelsior"? No googe needed. Just honest, straightforward and practical construction, shipmate.

[Steve Paskey]

Greenshank looks like too long a building process under the circumstances. I've long been intrigued by Excelsior -- in fact, I have a copy of the very old "Motor Boating Ideal Series" volume with the Excelsior article in it, offsets and all. Unfortunately, I think she's too narrow to sleep too people comfortably side by side.

On the other hand, James Samuel Jr. would have plenty of room for a "double bed" if one modified the interior a bit:

www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/JamesSamuelJr.html

[garland reese]

B and B yacht's Bay River Skiff would be a nice boat and a quick build. What about John Welsford's Houdini? I think if you were an enthusiastic building cooperative (you and your lovely lady), you could get one put together this Fall/Winter, and have it ready by springtime.....

Good luck, you're a lucky guy.

[Steve Paskey]

Thanks, Garland. It's amazing how things work out sometimes. (Not to rub it in, but I met my sweetheart in the "Elements of Seamanship" class at the WoodenBoat School last summer!)

Both Houdini and the Bay River Skiff crossed my mind as possibilities the other day. I'll take another look.

[Bear's Oil]

Not to get away from the thread, but after bad mouthing epoxy I wonder how T-88 would work as a strip planking adhesive?

[Steve Paskey]

I was wondering the same thing myself. Would it work for gluing the strips together? Don't see why not -- some folks use the equivalent of Elmer's glue, then sheath the finished hull in glass and epoxy.

It's not getting away from the thread at all, as it may open up new possibilities. I'd rather strip plank a boat than tape seams.

[StevenBauer]

If you're still thinking minimal glue wouldn't glued lap be the way to go?

Steven

[Keith Wilson]

Here's the T-88 page at System3's website: http://www.systemthree.com/p_t_88.asp

I still think you should build Phil Bolger's Birdwatcher.

[Steve Paskey]

I still think you should build Phil Bolger's Birdwatcher.

Birdwatcher is 21 feet long. Unless I hack a foot off the stern, I'd have to build her under a tent in the driveway, but it's not out of the question -- it would leave the entire garage free as a "shop." And I already have the plans for the original version -- I bought them second hand from someone who never built one. The down side to Birdwatcher is that she's both bigger and heavier than I would like. She's a great boat if you're planning to be out for a few days, but for daysailing she'd be more trouble to trailer and launch than I would like, and she can't be stored inside.

Incidentally, Bolger's "Camper" -- a transom-sterned design with a birdwatcher-style cabin -- is 18 feet long, but even if I sat on the floor without a cushion, there wouldn't be enough headroom. I'd have to add 3 inches to the cabin height to really be comfortable. I'm sure about this because I bought the plans, then sold them to someone else.

[Sailman58]

Have you looked at the CLC Skerry? I don't know how much camping room it has but two could probably sleep at seat level. I have seen boats ready for painting at the end of a 5 1/2 day class, and I know they will handle under oars.

Ron

[paladin]

T-88 works just dandy for strip planking...any Gluing application...1 to 1 mix......when you get ready to sheath with glass or polyester fibre switch to MAS....T-88 works well with microballons also..

[JimD]

I was going to start another thread on T 88 to avoid hijacking Steve's thread but that looks to be unnecessary. But I have a question or two about it. Is it too viscose for wetting out? Even in warmer temps?

[Keith Wilson]

T 88 - Is it too viscous for wetting out?

Yes. Even when it's warm it handles about like cold honey. There are much better choices for use with sheathing fabric.

[JimD]

Yes. Even when it's warm it handles about like cold honey. There are much better choices for use with sheathing fabric.

How about adding thickeners like such as silica for gap filling?

[paladin]

I have used talc and microballoons with success...although I feel the gap filling is unnecessary...

[JimD]

Sounds like it's might also be a bit trickier to measure and mx.

[paladin]

not at all...it's a one to one mix by volume....

[Keith Wilson]

Actually, T-88 is viscous enough that it fills ordinary gaps pretty well without any additives. It's extremely easy to use. Mix it up, slather it on, clamp it not too tight, and Bob's yer uncle. You can add microballoons to make a putty that's easier to sand, but I usually use ordinary runny epoxy for that application; the ratio of epoxy to balloons is lower at a given viscosity, so it's easier to sand. You can add silica to make a thixotropic putty if you want. (Great word, means "not runny", and yes, it's different from viscosity.) Again, I normally use ordinary epoxy for making fillets and filling huge gaps. Where T88 excels is just plain gluing pieces of wood together.

[paladin]

where T-88 is neat also is building wood veneer boats with balsa cores....
You make the framework of bulkheads and stringers, lay down the balsa on the scrim and tie it down using a needle and small stuff, mix up the t-88....put it in a plastic baggy with the corner cut off, and squeeze it between the balsa squares as they are pulled slightly apart when making the contours fit the mold....
The t-88 is thick enought to form webs between the balsa squares, them wipe them smooth while it is still green, then start laying the veneers on with unthickened t-88...then when you pop it off the framework....lay in two or three layers of glass on the inside.....fantastic...light ....

[htom]

Doug Hylan's Chesapeake Crab Skiff: http://www.dhylanboats.com/dhbplancc.html

[Steve Paskey]

Okay, the T-88 is good stuff, but here's another direction. A quote from the thread on the lumberyard skiff:

I think the coolest thing about the Lumberyard Skiff project is that it is an attempt to get people new to boatbuilding started right off with real wood rather than plywood. For people who absolutely can not be persuaded that a cross-planked skiff is easier, cheaper, and quicker to build than a resin/glass-sheathed ply box, there are always plans available from Bolger and others.

So how 'bout it, shipmates? Should I be building the "lumberyard sailing and camping skiff" instead? And if so, to what design? Something by Atkin? Sharpie suggested Greenshank or Excelsior. Any other ideas? (I have a few of my own, but I want to see what yaw'l come up with first.)