8' SAILBOAT to build quickly with 9 year old

[smallbot]

My nine year old wants to build himself an 8' sailboat with my help. (The brainwashing has paid off!) He's sailed Opti's, but the new wooden Opti kit costs about $1,200, so no way, no how.

We want nail and glue construction, absolutely no epoxy or fiberglass. I built a Dave Carnell $200 sailboat with the kids' help that way, and it sails great and doesn't leak (especially after I just patched the one leak). We'll use lumberyard materials and buy the sail from Sailrite or whoever. Boat does not need to last forever and will be drysailed except when capsized.

We're looking for simplest & quickest construction, pure sailboat (not row/sail/motor/golf cart/wheelbarrow/planter box). Flat bottom preferable. Maybe a scow. We'll put in side decks, because he likes them from the Opti, but we can add them if not in the plans (uh oh, this happened last time....)

Any favorites???

[JimConlin]

Why not an Opti?

[Nicholas Carey]

take a look at the Sabot and El Toro classes, both similar to Optis but a little less strict I believe.

The Sabot was designed by Charles MacGregor and was published in the April 1939 Rudder. It's current incarnation is the Naples Sabot. Here's a picture from the Aussie site:



The El Toro is a derivative of the MacGregor Sabot and, like the Sabot is similar to an Opi. It's a fairly big west (left?) coast class, about 11,000 strong. Here's a picture from The El Toro International Yacht Racing Assocation:



But I suspect that no matter what you build, a $200 budget, while it might get you a hull, I doubt very much it will get a sail and rigging to go along with the hull.

Good Luck!

[maa. melee]

http://www.simplicityboats.com

[mmd]

Atkin Saipan

[G.J. Stanton]

I too needed a cheap boat for a kid and a tender to access beaches when cruising. Got a copy of Sam Rabl's "Boatbuilding in your own Backyard". Built "Midge", a pram about 7 1/2' long, out of exterior fir plywood. Simple to build and cheap. Treated the ply with turp/linseed mixture before painting so suface checking of the fir ply has not been an issue. Just added a sprit sail rig of about 35 sq. ft. and used a leeboard secured with bungee. Sail material is blue tarp. Rows fine, sails fine. Total cost under $100. Boats lines are almost identical to "Saipan" in previous post. Expect howls of protest to follow for using blue tarp. Don't care.

[Nanoose]

If the kid doesn't like the color blue, there are the more traditional white tarps...besides the green, or black, or...

[Thorne]

Why fool around with making a polytarp sail when you can buy used Sabot sails from lofts for $45? I picked up a complete Sabot rig -- mast, boom and sail -- on Craigslist for $65.

The above suggestions are good - either pick up a thrashed ply El Toro (aka 'Bullship') or Sabot and fix it up, or build something similar in size and shape. Put a used El Toro or Sabot sail on it and awaaaaayy ya go!

The main gotcha with the above cunning plan is that the Sabot and El Toro sails are for 8' RACING boats -- so may quickly overpower an 8' boat built for fun. So you may want to consider cutting the sail down if necessary, taking care to keep the critical curves and sail shape intact. I'm no sailmaker, but I'd guess that you'd want to remove 'excess material' from the foot of the sail, requiring sewing up that edge and a making new clew and tack as well.

Here's my 14' dory with the Sabot rig (sail insignia removed) -

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Svenson's Free Plans
http://www.svensons.com/boat/
has a whole bunch of old style ply-on-frame sailing prams. I doubt that any are exceptional performers but, they're just the ticket if you are looking for a cheap build.
I sail a D4 which is a S&G knockoff of a Naples Sabot. Love the vee bottom. Cost to build was about $550 including a $200 Mack sail.

Charlie

[GBVT]

It's cheap. Nail and glue construction. Any decks you might want.
http://www.pdracer.com/

[Tom Robb]

El Toro is a neat little boat. The Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle uses a bunch of them to teach sailing to young kids. I'd not cut down the sail to make it more docile. Sooner or later the kid will want to go faster. A Reef point would be the most I'd do if a gun were put to my head.
As suggested above, people race them and as people will, they go way overboard to make sure their kid has the latest go-fast sails, so used perfectly good sails ought to be available. It's not a race boat in the sense of fussy and lots of trick obscure controls. It's a very simple boat, and prettier, IMHO, than an Opti which looks dumpy to my eye.

[Steve Lansdowne]

Puddle duck racer.

[Boatmik]

Puddle Duck Racer too.

The cheapest simplest way to get on the water - we built two boats - sailing for $350 each incluiding sails.

There are a couple of ways to go.

The class is quite open to different constructions and can use secondhand sails filched from other classes or you can make your own out of polytarp if CHEAP is one of the aims. The following pic and link are for the general approach and there is no plan fee - just draw the lines out on ply and start imagining.



The general class website is PDRacer.com

We (in Australia) are on the verge of releasing full professional plans ($20 download) with step by step instructions and photos of assembly stages for our version of the PDR - which is lighter, stronger and a better sailer than most. The only downside (for you) is that we do recommend epoxy.





For info on our version including links to our original building weblog (so you can see how they are built), video clips (to show they sail well) an FAQ and so on go to
Australian PDRacers

Regards
Michael Storer

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

I'm trying to get this out without starting an international incident.
Gentlemen, That's all very colorful but, it doesn't look like a boat. The front and the back are the same. Very square.
The biggest hurdle facing the PDRacer in this case is convincing that 9 year old that he will look cool in a boat shaped like a packing crate that lags far behind everything else on the water. Even a 9 year old knows that form follows function.
And, for the same money and effort you could get out a D4. Designed by a genuine naval architect as the dinghy for his personal blue-water sailboat. The plans are FREE. They have been downloaded more than 500,000 times.It is an excellent vee-bottomed sailing pram. The bulkheads and seats form floatation chambers. It would take a hand grenade to sink one. And, most importantly, it looks like a boat.
Take a peek for yourself.
http://www.boatplans-online.com/freeplans.php

The D4 in my avatar weighs 65lb. sans the sail rig. If you are willing to spring for some 4mm and 6mm okoume it could be built to 55 lb.

Charlie

[maa. melee]

Once again....
http://www.simplicityboats.com/

[Brian Palmer]

Bolger's Elegant Punt. I built one when I was 14 with no real adult supervision. Two sheets of plywood, leeboard, and a used sabot or el toro sail and you would be all set.

-- Brian

[smallbot]

Thanks for many excellent tips. I talked it over with my son and the revised spec for Boat #1 is:
-Nail & glue construction. No epoxy.
-Flared sides (not verticle Brick/PD Racer style)
-Curved sides from birds' eye view (not shoebox footprint).
-Flat bottom, not V.
-Less rocker is better (for planing a 70 pounder, not rowing to the dock with three grown men).

So, we're currently down to the Opti in nail & glue and the Bolger Elegant Punt (which seems to have more rocker than we need).

The US opti website claims they'll sell you nail & glue Opti plans, but when I emailed I got no response. (They are pushing their new wood-epoxy plans, not the old school ones.) My only lead on nail & glue Opti plans is an article reprint from DN Goodchild.com, which I'm ordering tonite.

-Any other leads on old pre-epoxy Opti plans? (I found some in Italian, but not downloadable.)

-Is there a little planing Bolger boat I'm forgetting??

[Paul Fitzgerald]

I'm sure it wont meet your requirements, but if you want to blow his mind try this:
http://www.openbic.com/images/index....b6d5592ace74ef

[Brian Palmer]

I wouldn't worry too much about the Elegant Punt's rocker. It helps keep the bow and stern transoms clear of the water. You won't find much in the 8 ft range that can really plane at sailing speed without a pretty sophisticated rig.

I found the 8 ft punt to sail plenty well enough, though I never sailed it against an Opti, Sabot, or El Toro.

-- Brian

[Geoff C]

Its a little longer than 8' but meets your other criteria:

http://www.stevproj.com/SailDingh.html

[smallbot]

That OpenBic is outrageous. If they can't sell those, they're not trying hard enough.

[Lucky Luke]

Why not an Opti?

...I just can't see how come there is such a confusing discussion about what should be THE obvious: built in a WE out of cp/glue/screws, perfectly safe, takes an adult and a child or up to three 9 years old, and unbeatable active associations and clubs worldwide....by far! Will always find mates to compete wherever he goes...

[skuthorp]

Chuck! don't knock the PD racer, were having the World Championships at Goolwa this March coming, you don't even have to bring your own boat. Fancy a trip downunder Smallbot?

[mmd]

"Any other leads on old pre-epoxy Opti plans?" - smallbot

Plans were printed in Volume 41 of the MoToRBoating "Ideal" Series books (printed in 1967). Discussion, plans, & building instructions including rig & sail. PM me if you'd like me to photocopy the article.

[Boatmik]

I'm trying to get this out without starting an international incident.
Gentlemen, That's all very colorful but, it doesn't look like a boat. The front and the back are the same. Very square.
The biggest hurdle facing the PDRacer in this case is convincing that 9 year old that he will look cool in a boat shaped like a packing crate that lags far behind everything else on the water. Even a 9 year old knows that form follows function.
And, for the same money and effort you could get out a D4. Designed by a genuine naval architect as the dinghy for his personal blue-water sailboat. The plans are FREE. They have been downloaded more than 500,000 times.It is an excellent vee-bottomed sailing pram. The bulkheads and seats form floatation chambers. It would take a hand grenade to sink one. And, most importantly, it looks like a boat.
Take a peek for yourself.
http://www.boatplans-online.com/freeplans.php

The D4 in my avatar weighs 65lb. sans the sail rig. If you are willing to spring for some 4mm and 6mm okoume it could be built to 55 lb.

Charlie

Have a look at the videos of the PDR before you make such dangerous assumptions Charlie!!!! :-)

They are on the right of this page - nothing at all to be ashamed of
http://www.storerboatplans.com/Pdr/pdr.html

Us Aussies can be pretty warlike!!!

I think you will find that the OZ version of the PDR sails very well indeed. And has been reworked by a professional boat designer with a long competitive sailing background.

Plans will be step by step with lots of photos and diagrams for every aspect (60pp). Available by download in a coupla weeks for $20.

Best wishes to you.
MIK

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

You folks in OZ must be a well heeled lot. I only have a dial-up connection so I get no videos either salacious or boat related.
Back to the topic. I learned on and still sail regularly the 8' pram in my avatar. I it is fun at times but nowhere near perfect. Short waterline=SLOW. Small sail, 3 meters,=VERY SLOW in light air. Short and very rockered = HARD TO ROW STRAIGHT. But, in 15knt, or more, winds it's a woopie machine. Last winter I ventured out in winds that took me to the limit. Mouth went dry but couldn't grab my water bottle because I was too scared to let go of the tiller or the sheet. I stayed upright and got back safely because the boat did exactly what I wanted. And it did what I wanted because it was a boat not a characture of one.
The idea that it would be fun to put sails on a barge that had absolutely no nautical characteristics and venture far away from land is a concept that I will not try in my lifetime. And I would definitely not encourage a nine-year-old to do it because I want the nine-year-old to consider joining the brotherhood of sailors.
So, those barges sprouting 12 meters of sail are a suitable diversion for geriatric types but are definitely not the ticket for kids who won't stick with anything unless it is fun and cool and a bunch of other things that only kids understand.
Sorry, no videos but, here's 2 pages of still pics of the mighty D4.
http://209.190.4.227/gallery/thumbna...bum=343&page=1

Charlie

[Boatmik]

HI Charlie,

Nice pics - nice project!

Sorry about the bum steer with the PDRacer vids - I should have warned you that they are a bit big. - I only have dial up too! But suffice it to say that we have got these little box shaped boats sailing very nicely indeed.

The only problems we have had is that when we have a BBQ with our boating mates it is very hard to get them to come back to the riverbank for someone else to have a go! And the WORST offenders are the guys who have big racing trophy collections!

What attracted me to that project was the chance to take a box with no "nautical" pretensions and see just how well we could make it sail. The lesson is - if it has rocker it can be made to sail rather well indeed.

Weight is the same as your boat - after all - it is the same amount of materials. We decided to go really cheap in the building rather than go for a real lightweight boat - much like your decision.

Anyway - the point is that a "real" boat is one that really works. A charicature is one that doesn't - even if people think it looks like a boat - ie appeals to people image of what a boat is.

My feeling is that if you put enough sail on and have big enough foils and there is enough rocker to keep the ends out of the water there is a good chance that it will sail fine.

Oh Yes! You have to get the sail in the right place relative to the foils!!!

But within that frame it is possible to build really simple boats that sail well in all conditions - and simple is what you need when dealing with the attention span of kids.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/boatmik...7602362642920/

MIK

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

MIK,
I am trying to add a light air sail of about four meters but, it looks like I'll have to make a longer mast, add a boom and the tackle to control it. Then there's the worry that the center of effort will be too high or too far back.......aaarrrrg!l
Have fun in those PD's.

Charlie

[Boatmik]

Howdy Chuck,

We had the same problem when thinking about smaller and larger rigs for our OZ PDRacers - the bigger for tall or heavy people with good sailing experience, the smaller for novices or kids.

The way we settled on is just to build a longer (or shorter) mast and have the clew (back corner of the mainsail) in the same positon. Certainly made it easier to draw up the different rig options for the plans!

A foot or so on top of the mast adds a fair bit of area but doesn't move the sail's centre a great deal. Same boom/sheeting etc.



My feeling about CE (sail centre) is that a small discrepancy (a couple of inches) doesn't add up to much - a more likely problem for recreational designers is thay they can have it FEET out of position.

It can be a different story with a highly tuned racing boat where an inch out of position can lose you the 30 seconds in an hour that makes the difference between winning and losing.

If your boat sails fine upwind and tacks and gybes reliably then the CE is in about the right position relative to the centreboard/leeboard/keel and you could consider a mod as suggested above

Best Regards
Michael

[Christopher Locke]

Smallbot, I have no experience with the following but found this reference (I think on a Canadian site) in case it suits. I note that it is longer than what you were looking for. Not clear if you can just buy the plans instead of the whole kit, which was out of your price range (even in Canadian dollars). Chris.

Mirror
It is a wooden boat that is available as a kit and can be put together by a modestly skilled craftsperson. The instructions are explicit and no fancy tools are required. The kit comes with all the basic essentials for sailing. But for those interested in racing they should be prepared to add quite a few extra doodads. When properly constructed, the boat will not sink, because under the foredeck, the side decks and the rear deck are air tanks. So even if the cockpit fills with water the boat will continue to float, albeit rather low in the water. The boat has two sails: a main sail and a jib plus racers can add a spinnaker.

Some may argue that a wooden boat requires a lot of maintenance. That is true, if properly maintained it will last for many years. A few of the original members are still active and are sailing the boats they used when OMDA was formed. One of the advantages of a wooden boat is that they are relatively easy to fix. Unfortunately, boats just like cars, sometimes are involved in collisions and then require repair. I think that wooden boats may be easy to fix especially at a campsite or a cottage than are fiberglass boats.

There are many people active in sailing around the world who got their sailing starts in a Mirror. It is an excellent boat in which to learn basic sailing skills. While you can get your sailing start in simpler boats one can quickly out grow them Mirrors on the other hand can continue to be a sailing challenge for many years as evidenced by the many adults who still use them. They are not as fast as catamaran or lasers. Yes, if high speed is what you crave the Mirror may disappoint. But if it is a true sailing challenge that excites you the Mirror definitely passes that test. The boats can also be rowed and motored.

light - only 45 kg,
long 3.3m / 10'10"
wide 1.39m / 4'7"

Price for New: $2895.00 CDN

http://www.mirrorsailing.ca/

http://www.ukmirrorsailing.com/

[Christopher Locke]

Sorry, followed one of the links myself and it explicitly states that plans are not available; you must either buy a kit or a finished boat. Sorry! Chris

[dinghydesign9]

Try Julian Godwin's designs at http://www.godwin-design.co.nz

[John Aitken]

My nine year old wants to build himself an 8' sailboat with my help. (The brainwashing has paid off!) He's sailed Opti's, but the new wooden Opti kit costs about $1,200, so no way, no how.

We want nail and glue construction, absolutely no epoxy or fiberglass. I built a Dave Carnell $200 sailboat with the kids' help that way, and it sails great and doesn't leak (especially after I just patched the one leak). We'll use lumberyard materials and buy the sail from Sailrite or whoever. Boat does not need to last forever and will be drysailed except when capsized.

We're looking for simplest & quickest construction, pure sailboat (not row/sail/motor/golf cart/wheelbarrow/planter box). Flat bottom preferable. Maybe a scow. We'll put in side decks, because he likes them from the Opti, but we can add them if not in the plans (uh oh, this happened last time....)

Any favorites???

I built Sam Rabl's little boat years ago and she was a simple box build of plywood and sailed unbelievably well. Eight foot long, sprit rig. Plans are in his book, "Building Boats in Your Own Back Yard". She rowed like a feather.

John Aitken
Prince Edward County

[PsiPhi]

I'm with Maa Melee.
www.simplicityboats.com - Summer Breeze.

Does this look like a bathtub - I don't think so. 2 sheets of ply and a little lumber. Can build stich-and-glue or with chine logs

sternsailS.jpgsb30_small.jpg