Self tending jib

**Mrleft8** · 02-28-2005, 09:26 PM

All my life I've always wondered about these things..... How do they work? I've seen the pictures, I've seen them in real life, and in action, and I still don't get it....

**uncas** · 02-28-2005, 09:30 PM

I guessing you are referring to a club foot as it does self tend...
Real simple...you have a club foot...note pictures of Uncas...The sail goes up...one halyard, one sheet..that is the key as it runs on a track...and that is pretty much it...The club foot keeps the sail out...the one sheet is all you need as there is a track attached with a pulley to the club foot and allows you to only deal with one sheet..Perhaps self tending is really not the right phrase...I would say easier tending..
It does not like going down wind but other than that...Almost easier than the main.
Needless to say, although I like my #1 jenny...this club foot is a lot easier to contend with when alone... I use it more than I should probably.

[ 02-28-2005, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

**Ian McColgin** · 03-01-2005, 09:32 AM

I'm betting he means solent jib sheeting. But I like a club better and the camber spar - an internal self-vanging bent club - even better.

**uncas** · 03-01-2005, 09:43 AM

Ian... I have seen them on some newer boats..They seem, from land..not under sail...to make sense.but never used one...At least not on my boat...Have to do with the wooden club...It works well actually except down wind...

**preston** · 03-01-2005, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by uncas:
Perhaps self tending is really not the right phrase...I would say easier tending..

I've always thought the advantage (the "self-tending" aspect) was that I could come about without having to touch the sheets.

Preston

**uncas** · 03-01-2005, 02:13 PM

That it does...But sometimes one has to pull on the one sheet....or let it out...

**preston** · 03-01-2005, 02:27 PM

You mean, manually?!?!

**uncas** · 03-01-2005, 02:29 PM

Of course!
Perhaps that is what self tending means...You gotta pull in the sheet/or let it out yourself...Hence self tending...

[ 03-01-2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

**John B** · 03-01-2005, 02:52 PM

Crew isn't allowed to touch it.

Only yourself.

thanks guys. the day is looking better. [img]smile.gif[/img]

**uncas** · 03-01-2005, 02:56 PM

John B...sometime a little humor somewhere and certainly not in the bilge is a good thing...
So, I'm tending to myself...and the real important things in life...Boats.

**John B** · 03-01-2005, 04:55 PM

I'm really concerned for Lefty. He's fretting away with worry over this and we're making jokes. He'll be back off to the Carribean if we aren't careful.

PS my staysail is on a club. works well but it needed the jackline on the 3 or 4 lower hanks so it can lower properly.

**Ian McColgin** · 03-01-2005, 05:04 PM

Returning from brain dead - I ment to write "soling" jib. Not "solent" jib which is really just a forestaysail.

The Soling arrangement has the jib on a traveler which must be carefully cambered and is another place for the Haarken brothers to make some ca$h.

**uncas** · 03-01-2005, 05:42 PM

Yes we were were kidding around a bit...All in fun...even though lefty's question does deserve a correct answer...
Perhaps because I have a club foot and it really is one that operates without too much work...pulling in a sheet or letting it out...was not sure really what he was asking...
It is an extremely simple arrangement...
One sheet foreward runs through a block to a pulley which in turn is attaches the sheet to the traveler...The club acts like a spinnacker pole and moves the sail from port to starboard depending upon tack and wind...the club's movement is based upon the movement of the sheet on the track...how much one has let out or taken in...
Again, it can't be any simpler...

[ 03-01-2005, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: uncas ]

**John B** · 03-01-2005, 05:50 PM

ditto.

some of the class racers here have a curved track that matches the arc the jib travels and either run the sheet forward to a block as you describe , or take it up the mast and back down to acheive the same thing.

[ 03-01-2005, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

**Don Z.** · 03-01-2005, 06:14 PM

In all seriousness... the Harken catalog has a small section with sketches that show various types of self tending jibs. Granted, their preferred solutions always seem to have Harken part numbers involved, but it's certainly a starting point for other ideas...
Z

**John B** · 03-01-2005, 06:17 PM

Its when it goes furling self tending that it gets interesting....

**uncas** · 03-01-2005, 07:41 PM

You all are getting ahead of me... Everything on Uncus is pretty much original... I don't have any self furling jibs, a self furling main...
I certainly don't have anything from Harken.
It is a matter of you want it up...pull a line...You want it down, take it off the cleat...You want it furled...well. you get the picture.
So, guess I'll bow out as I can't add anymore here...Good luck

**Todd Bradshaw** · 03-02-2005, 12:25 AM

Furling, self-tending jib

**Mrleft8** · 03-02-2005, 07:05 AM

Right.... So basically it solves the problem of having to release the jib sheet on the windward side, and haul the jib sheet in on the leeward side every time you tack... Assuming you're maintaining your course relative to the wind....Or something like that...

**uncas** · 03-02-2005, 07:17 AM

Lefy...exactly right! I'll show when we stop by in August.
jamj
This one I could answer...

[ 03-02-2005, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: uncas ]

**John B** · 03-02-2005, 01:18 PM

If you're beating to windward , you go as close as you can effectively on both tacks so yes, you don't need to adjust it and the sail tacks itself. The negative is that the sail can't have overlap = extra horsepower for the light. The reason I have one is that we have enough to do anyway. overcanvassed boat,cutter rig, running backstays when its windy. But when its all working, like 2 weekends ago, we had a beat in 20 knots to get home from the night out. I threw a reef in the main and sailed home just staysail and main. We might have done 20 tacks perhaps, tacking on the knocks and riding the lifts. I sailed the boat, everyone else went about other business( hard work, those crayon drawings and such) and we were comfortable. Total expenditure of energy... push tiller from one side to other.
So they are a neat thing... worth getting sorted out.

[ 03-02-2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

**uncas** · 03-02-2005, 01:23 PM

John B...couldn't agree more...It does come down to energy consumed...or wasted...or saved.

**George.** · 03-02-2005, 01:45 PM

It's obvious that you guys don't sail schooners. That you ignore the ease of releasing one sheet and hauling in another as your boat ponderously tacks, spending almost ten seconds head-to-wind, never missing stays but always making you think she will. And that you are immune to the pleasures of wrestling down a flogging, overlapping jib after the sheet just parted, with the clew D-ring trying to brain you as you try to balance yourself hands-free on the bowpsrit shrouds...

**John B** · 03-02-2005, 01:59 PM

I bust the peak halyard 2 races ago and half my 600 ft main came down around our ears. Does that count?

**George.** · 03-02-2005, 02:19 PM

That counts... especially if the throat refused to come down with the peak hanging low, and you were in a situation where you had to keep head-to-wind...

**Mrleft8** · 03-02-2005, 09:05 PM

I gotta get a bigger boat...

**Lucky Luke** · 03-04-2005, 05:37 AM

Self "tending" jib???????

I guess it must be something like that....

[ 03-05-2005, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Lucky Luke ]

**Mrleft8** · 03-04-2005, 06:12 AM

**Kermit** · 03-07-2005, 12:47 PM

Did someone say Soling? Great boats--I learned to sail in these, and owned one for a while. I mean REALLY learned. Get a sail in one. I've never really liked any other jib arangement since.

**kuunari** · 11-25-2005, 10:46 AM

I was reading old posts and came across this one.

What is you opinion, does the self tending ease overweigh the possibility to back the jib when coming about with a schooner rig?

**gert** · 11-25-2005, 02:15 PM

"tacking on the knocks and riding the lifts"

Please explain

thx

**Figment** · 11-25-2005, 04:18 PM

"knock" aka "header".... When sailing upwind, the wind direction shifts, causing your course to alter to leeward.

"lift"... opposite of knock or header.

A boat that tacks easily and quickly can take much advantage of small changes in wind direction when working upwind. Ride the lifts up toward your target.... Tack when knocked to ride the other (now lifted) tack up toward your target.

**Gary Bergman** · 11-26-2005, 08:36 AM

We did away with the club boom. Our stays'l is loose footed, so the rigger in me said, 'what use is the boom?'..Our multiple-parted sheet beckets to a bolt in the spider rail, and belays to whichever rail necessary, depending on tack. It became such fun that now we've done away with the main boom too!(loose footed main, eh?)..eyeballing the mizzen boom as of late!...rather interesting now, as from the foredeck to the poop, there's nothin' to 'duck'...

[ 11-26-2005, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: Gary Bergman ]

**Thorne** · 11-26-2005, 09:27 AM

I've searched the forums but can't find the thread on this -- what is the name of the style of jib where the *center* of the jib boom pivots on the stem area? Sort of a combined jib boom and bowsprit thingie...

;- )

Is that design also sometimes rigged as self-tending, as it seems like it would be ideal for that setup.

[ 11-26-2005, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

**neptoon** · 11-26-2005, 03:31 PM

check out the club footed jib and sheets on a Herreshoff 12 1/2

**ahp** · 11-26-2005, 03:45 PM

Thorn, look at some of the jibs on traditional Chesapeake small sailing craft. They had a spar (club) along the foot of the jib which was attached with a short line about 1/3 rd of the way back from the foreward end of the club to the stem or the end of a short bowsprit. The was no forestay or jib stay. The jib was set flying.

**N. Scheuer** · 11-26-2005, 03:56 PM

We have a club jib in our Shearwater Yawl. I quit using it in favor of conventional sheeting when we added a 120% Genoa.

It turns out that Gayle (new First Mate) likes the club jib better.

It has a couple of complications that appear to go away when we use a shorter club instead of the original which is secured to the forestay with a clevis pin. Sheting angles must be optimum for the shorter club to trim the jib properly.

One of the "complications" was the leech of the jib fouling on the forward end of the Main Sprit in tacking. The other was the jib not wanting to lower beyond a certain point without loosening the jib clew. The original jib rig has something called "jack lines" (I believe this is correct, but not sure) that let the forestay clips reach farther out from the luff when the sail was lowered. These were removed when we went to conventional sheeting. I'd rather use the shorter club (able to ease itself around the sprit) instead of reinstalling the jack lines.

Moby Nick
Moby Nick

**Dayton Eckerson** · 11-30-2005, 05:30 PM

Thorn:
Your description sounds like a Hoyte boom. Island Packet cutters use these. They work very well but I understand they are quite pricey.

**Bill Perkins** · 11-30-2005, 09:15 PM

Thorne you're thinking of the balanced Jib I believe . They look like this

or this

**Thorne** · 11-30-2005, 10:33 PM

Yep, that's the one!

But I didn't realize that they sometimes were flown looking so much like a spinnaker with a boom...strange, and of course on some tacks you lose the whole 'slot' part of the sail trim effort.

Here's more of a standard boomed jib, and this Welsh outfit sure has some pretty boats - check out the Storm Petrel 19!

http://www.swallowboats.com/storm19.htm

[ 12-01-2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

**Todd Bradshaw** · 12-01-2005, 01:02 AM

One of the main advantages of that type of jib rigging is that when set up properly they are "self-vanging" - meaning that the upper leech doesn't twist off to leeward, spilling wind when the sail is eased out, as can be seen in the photos. This maintains maximum jib power on all points of sail as well as being one less thing needing frequent adjustment, movable sheeting tracks, critical attention to sheeting angle etc. Thus, it's also quite popular on model sailboats where there is no on-board crew to tune or adjust the jib and only a single servo trimming or easing the sheet. It was also fairly common on old sloop-rigged iceboats, like Great South Bay Ice Scooters.

The potential downside of any self-vanging sail (a sprit-boomed mainsail is another common type of self-vanging system - look at the mainsail foot tension that the sprit boom is putting on the Storm Petrel shown above) is that twist isn't always a bad thing. Letting the top of a sail twist to leeward when you're sailing in a blow and getting overpowered is a handy and effective de-powering tool and a means of preventing excessive heeling. Self-vangers tend to be either on (working) or off (weathervaned and not contributing anything except drag). You can trim or ease their sheets and to some extent feather them "in and out of gear" but if one part of the sail is catching wind, the whole thing is and there's not much you can do about it. The more "normal" jib sheeting systems generally allow you to trim the bottom of the sail, keeping it working and allow the top to twist-off, reducing heeling as well as the amount of currently working sail area.

[ 12-01-2005, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

**brian.cunningham** · 12-04-2005, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
Furling, self-tending jib

Neat.
What's the advantage of having the boom shorted than the bottom of the sail, and not having it run all the way up to the bow?

**uncas** · 12-04-2005, 06:54 AM

Looks like an interesting arrangement...I do potentially see at least one problem...What happens if your #1 genny is self furling as well...You'd have two drums on top of ewach other up there in the bow...unless you redesigned the rigging to accomodate two...and that would or could be an expensive proposition...and change how the boat handles...

**brian.cunningham** · 12-05-2005, 01:15 PM

Unless you plan of furling bewteen tacks, that boom is best left for working jibs.

If you want to run a genny as well on a roller, rig it as a cutter, then just run the lines as you normally would for a cutter.

That way the boat is self-tacking when your runnging the working jib.

**capt jake** · 12-05-2005, 01:37 PM

Unless you plan of furling bewteen tacks, that boom is best left for working jibs.

If you want to run a genny as well on a roller, rig it as a cutter, then just run the lines as you normally would for a cutter.

That way the boat is self-tacking when your runnging the working jib.

Funny this should come up; I am currently setting up a system identicle to this on my Weekender (setting it up as a cutter). They are both going to be roller furling (one already is). The new 'staysail' will be self tending with the small boom as drawn.

I have made the drums and all of the associated fitting here inthe shop. The only items I need to purchase are the swivels. I have two RWO swivels (R2082) that work oustanding. Of course I am talking a slightly smaller boat here, but the concepts are identical.

I am taking measurements to begin sewing the dacron sail today. [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[ 12-05-2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

**brian.cunningham** · 12-09-2005, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by capt jake:
Funny this should come up; I am currently setting up a system identicle to this on my Weekender (setting it up as a cutter). They are both going to be roller furling (one already is). The new 'staysail' will be self tending with the small boom as drawn.

I have made the drums and all of the associated fitting here inthe shop. The only items I need to purchase are the swivels. I have two RWO swivels (R2082) that work oustanding. Of course I am talking a slightly smaller boat here, but the concepts are identical.

I am taking measurements to begin sewing the dacron sail today. [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Be sure to posts some pics when your done!

**brian.cunningham** · 12-09-2005, 08:00 PM

From the "Maid of Endor" thread

**Thorne** · 12-10-2005, 08:20 AM

Here's a new one for me -- Howard Blackburn in a dory (variously called America and Sandy Bay) -- with what appears to be a partial jib boom?

http://www.sandybay.org/images/oldphotos/saildory.jpg

And yes we already hashed out the "Is that a gaff or marconi rig" on the dory Yahoo group -- I initially thought it was Marconi but if you visit the site, download and enlarge the image, it seems to be a gaffer.

**capt jake** · 12-14-2005, 10:10 PM

Neat.
What's the advantage of having the boom shorted than the bottom of the sail, and not having it run all the way up to the bow?

Well, from what I am running into is the fact that if it is full length of the foot, the geometry doesn't work out to let it furl. I am facing that presently. I do not relish the idea of another hole for another fastener to hold the end of the clubfoot. with out shortening teh club and attaching it further aft, I don't see a way of making it work (in my situation). Unless there is a way to rig it so the attachment at the clew can be slacked remotely during furling.

At the same time, I am not sure how it will perform without the clubfoot. If I delete the club, the furling is a piece of cake. I will be installing a traveler to attache the clew to.

Any thoughts on this delema?

**capt jake** · 12-21-2005, 07:13 AM

Now onto the new sail. I have it all sewn and installed. It won't roll like the other one.?? I used 7/19 SS 1/8" wire, same as the other (but from a different supplier). It seems that the wire is wanting to twist excessively. Thus, it needs to get the twist out before it transfers the load to the swivel (applying force at the drum on the bottom). This means that it takes a lot more effort and strain to make it furl (compared to the other sail).

Any thoughts on this one? I would hate to have to remove the wire, buy some more and re-sew it in place. Could it simply be the wire??

Once I get this 'rolling' then I can work out the geometry of the boomlet, which will be a little challenging.

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