how do you make radiused toe rails?

[Dale R. Hamilton]

Was looking at pictures of Riva runabouts the other day. Most sported an elegant bright-finished mahogany toe rail around their fore decks. They are at least 5 inches wide and maybe 1.5" deep (thick)- can't be laminated up, can't be steam bent, can't be sawn. So how 'bout it guys, how does old Carlo make these things?

[Dave Fleming]

Scarphed?

Either a straight cut scarf or one like the Trumphy style.

Trumphy style, IIRC, is sort of a Dolphin nose shaped cut.

[Dale R. Hamilton]

hmmm, don't think so Dave- these are finished bright- scarfs or lams would show.

[Dave Fleming]

Can't say, as I have never seen a full length toe rail out of one piece of stock?

Like to see a photo of one!

Sure they are one piece?

[ 07-18-2005, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Ken Hutchins]

can't be laminated up, can't be steam bent,

My guess is that they are both steam bent and laminated.

[Dale R. Hamilton]

No not sure they are full length- I've only seen pictures (of Riva's) never had a chance to examine them close up. Maybe they are lamed and a pix does not show it.

[Dave Fleming]

Found this photo of a 1960's Riva and to my old eyes sure does look like a joint on the port side forward of the cockpit.



Of course my eyes were not 100% focused on the rail.

[Dale R. Hamilton]

what toe rail?

Yup agree- see the joint- but that still leaves 5 feet of radiused rail to account for

[Dave Fleming]

OK, big bit of speculation here....

That is probably African Mahogany. When those were built the width of some of those planks was huge. 36 or so inches was not uncommon.

Since those are high end boats I could see them saving the wide planks with a gentle sweep to the grain just for those toe rails.
Not too hard to saw out single piece toe rails out of stock like that.

There is an outfit up near Lake Tahoe that specializes in restoration of such boats.
Find 'em through Google and if they have an email address, ask them.

[John Turpin]

Her arm looks very uncomfortable. I hope they took that picture quickly.

[mmd]

I examined a Riva Aquarama pretty closely on several occasions while visiting Bequia. The toerail - probably more accurately termed the waterway or deck sheerplank - was a single piece from stem to step pad abaft the helm, a distance of probably twelve feet. The grain followed the curve of the deck, and the grain was exactly mirror-imaged from port to starboard. The only way I know how to do that is to take a carefully selected crook timber, rough out the shape of the part paying real close attention to the run of the grain, then re-saw the piece to bookmatch the planks. Frightfully labour-intensive and wasteful of raw stock, but it's a Riva, so damn the expense!

[Alan D. Hyde]

Which of the two cockpits, Dave???

Alan

[ 07-18-2005, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Dave Fleming]

was a single piece from stem to step pad abaft the helm, a distance of probably twelve feet. The grain followed the curve of the deck, and the grain was exactly mirror-imaged from port to starboard. The only way I know how to do that is to take a carefully selected crook timber, rough out the shape of the part paying real close attention to the run of the grain, then re-saw the piece to bookmatch the planks. Frightfully labour-intensive and wasteful of raw stock, but it's a Riva, so damn the expense!

My off the wall guess was apparently not too far off.

Imagine sorting out a new shipment of timber according to sweep of grain!
Reminds me of an old time yard with a lot full of timbers laid out and the foreman or loftsman walking through it with template in hand looking for the timber with a grain match to the template.

[mmd]

I walked through David Stevens' woodlot with him, carrying a template for a stem, looking for just the right crooked oak branch to cut down.

[ssor]

When they built The Sultana they took advantage of the natural bends in the osage orange stock that was used for the frames. I will bet that Ken Hutchens has had occassion to mill curved planks from bent logs.

[Dave Fleming]

My local Portugese friends from the Azores told me that was how it was done and still being done today for the few wooden boats still being built on Pico.

Cruising the wood lots for just the right timber.

[ 07-18-2005, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[paladin]

My best friends wife is portagee from Pico...her dad is a commercial fisherman....he has been eyeing a photo of the giant osage orange tree in the front yard of my grandfathers house fer a long time......I pertek it with a lotta armormints...

[Dave Fleming]

My best friends wife is portagee from Pico

Is his last name Silva, Soares, Madruga or Braz?

[Ken Hutchins]

I will bet that Ken Hutchens has had occassion to mill curved planks from bent logs.

Ah, yes I have on a few occasions.

[BRobinson]

In the picture above of the Riva Tritone, that model does not have toe rails, those are the covering boards. The Riva I think Dale is talking about is an Aquarama or a Super Aquarama. Those boats have huge toe rails. Only certain Riva Models have toe rails at all. The toe rails are made from one very large Honduras mahogany board - bookmatched. The restorers I know save these pieces at all costs because that size lumber is simply not readily available. But wow, are they neat to look at.

[StevenBauer]

[ 07-18-2005, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: StevenBauer ]

[Bill Perkins]

HaHemm..an impressive piece of woodworking .I think I do see a scarf in the covering board , Port side , centered on what I take to be ventilation cowls .I think the windshield would have been more elegant built by the same craftsmen , with the same wood .The metal frame , which may have seemed thrillingly modern at the time , now looks a little slight to me.

[ 07-19-2005, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[BRobinson]

It's just a model, Bill

Here is the real thing:

www.riva-world.com/riva-world/sale/salepics/aquaram a.jpg

[ 07-19-2005, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: BRobinson ]

[Dale R. Hamilton]

damn- well I guess thats that! Maybe I could cut one out of mahogany ply and then edge glue radiused mahogany strips to cover the ply lams.Hmmm, guess we can't do it like Carlo does after all.

[cudashark]

Well actually the wood is soaked for up to two weeks in a long troth. Then steamed bent. It usally takes one hour per inch so a covering board that is 12 quarters (3" thick) will need at least 3 hours.

The exact method is explained in Don Danenberg's book "How to Restore Your Wooden Runabout".

Once the covering board is bent into shape the inner edge is plained to the proper thickness leaving the outer edge to be hand shaped.

[Jay Greer]

I just got off of the phone with my friend, Jon Martin, who was the West Coast distributing agent for Riva International. I asked him how the heavy rail caps were fabricated. This was his answer. "Riva buy's their mahogany in selected log form and saws it into balks that are then air dried in a special shed next to the factory for two years, summer winter rain and snow. All wood for planking, trim, rails and other bright finished components is book matched from the same log. In the case of the curved rails you are asking about, stock that has the greatest curve of grain is, carefully, chosen and then sawn to shape. No steam bending of the heavy rails is involved."
Jay