Selling boats

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Hi, First time posting. I'm a professional boatbuilder on the eastern shore of Maryland. I've had a customer back out of a building agreement for a Devlin designed Snow Goose duck boat. I've ended up finally putting it on ebay yesterday to try and cut my losses and make room for paying work. My question is how can a small shop with limited marketing dollars sell boats. I took this particular boat to a few shows and everyone was in awe but not interested in taking it home. Granted, this is a specialized boat, but I'm a little gunshy now. Please help before I have to get a real job. My page

[holzbt]

I've had similar experiences. I barely make any money on boats that are ordered and delivered. I built a gunning boat for someone who backed out when the boat was completed. He decided that he didn't fit quite right in it. I took it to shows, advertised it and got nowhere for almost a year. Finally I donated it to the local maritime museum because I was getting tired of moving it out of the way all the time. They sold it in less than a weeks time.

(I went and got a real job. I only do this part time now.)

[ 07-20-2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: holzbt ]

[George Roberts]

You could post prices on your website. That will attract/repel those in/out of the proper price range.

Selling is hard work.

[Patrick Mertaugh]

holzbt - nice to hear I'm not the only one with the selling problem, but kind of scared to hear you had to donate the boat. Like you said, I'm tripping over the boat right now. I don't know anything about ebay, but I'm hoping to get materials costs out of it. There are a few people bidding on it so we'll see. my page

[pipefitter]

This is going to sound crazy but tell them it isn't for sale. Build boats that you want for yourself incase you dont sell it. I have tried NOT to sell my boat and people wont leave it alone.One old guy even stuck a check in my top pocket insisting that I sell it to him.When I refused, he offered double claiming, "everything is for sale".The people that can afford handcrafted boats seem to like paying the specialized price.Especially when you tell them that they can't have it.Or that there isn't another one like it. Make it yours like you need it instead of like you are trying to get rid of it.When you dont want to get "rid" of something,seems everyone wants it.

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Thanks George, good advice. I think you're right, prices on the site would keep everyone from wasting each others time. I've talked to some other builders, and they've always said that you have to get the boat in front of people and get them emotionally attached to it. And at that point, price isn't such an issue. I don't know, I'm a good builder, but not such a fantastic businessman. my page

[Venchka]

Something that works for Geoff Kerr: He takes his personal Caledonia yawl to every wooden boat get together he can find during the summer. Takes orders for that boat, something similar, or something totally different. He then builds boats all winter.

As for the client backing out, get a tougher contract. Get the materials money up front and substantial progress payments along the way. That's what builders quoted me when I was shopping. As I recall, if I had turned the boat down at the end, I would have lost 2/3 of the purchase price.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[Patrick Mertaugh]

pipefitter - your right. There's an old timer down here that builds these basic little boats. He's been building his last boat for himself every year for like the last ten years. People keep buying them. Donald Rumsfeld actually bought one. my page

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Selling what you have to offer is always a question of attracting the right clientele. My sense after thirty years of commission selling is that people who back out of a deal don't have the money. Sometimes they make a profession out of ordering things and backing out. When a customer comes in to my store and says "I'm looking for a good quality dining room set, and I have already ordered two from other stores, and sent them back" My alarm bells go off. I deal with these people very cautiously.

Finding the right clientele is sometimes a little tricky. If you indeed make a high end product, advertise only in places that people with money will see. It's a waste of time to advertise in your local newspaper, but probably a good thing to advertise in a high end lifestyle magazine.

Ask for a healthy, non refundable deposit on the project. There should be a contract, along with a set of plans or drawings, and specifications of materials and so on. I would think 25% is not out of the way. If someone balks at that, they're probably not the customer you want anyway. The contract could also specify additional payments based on percentage of completion.

Don't be shy or humble of your work. If you build quality, then you want (and deserve) quality clients. They're out there. The bottomfeeders and deadbeats will waste your time and provide you with little return.

First rule of retail advertising: No one knows who you are, or what you do.

[ 07-20-2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: Peter Malcolm Jardine ]

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Thanks Venchka, that's a great idea about going to shows all summer. Unfortunately, since having kids I don't have the "Successful boatbuilders secret" - a wife with a full time job. I do repair and restoration as well and don't have time to go to many shows (should probably make the time). Your also right about contracts, I need to be more formal about them. The days of handshake deals are long gone. my page

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Peter, would you consider moving south and being my business manager. I can get Molson at the liquor store across the street. my page

[kc8pql]

I build high end custom furniture for a living. Many pieces run into the five figure range. The advice above about not wasting your time with average income people is spot on. The BMW and Mercedes crowd is where the market is. I get between 30 and 50% up front, non-refundable, with the balance due on completion. If the client is willing to cough up that much money to start it's a good sign that he's serious. I've been working this way for 35 years now and have never been stuck with a piece. If I had been, at least the materials and my overhead would be covered.

Ken

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

I would also tell you that people like me who buy an older wooden boat and fix them up and so on, are not your client either. Just as K8 has said, people with money will buy things that ordinary people can't afford. Custom wooden boats are in that category. People with money want things that are unique and special.

Patrick, you should find a friend or F of a F who is in advertising and marketing. Sit down with them and find out where the money is in your area, and what publications they read and shows they're going to. Find out if there are any charity events (high end ones) that have aquatics involved. Easter Seal Regattas and so on, and be there with one of your boats.

Create ads that have panache... shiny varnish and so on. Mendlewitz style pictures..

You have a nice site, and some nice boats on it. You can do this.

[Patrick Mertaugh]

kc8pql, point taken. Although I've been building boats for a while, I've only had my own shingle out for 3 years and there's more to learn than I realized. Finding the right customers is indeed the vital but somewhat elusive key it seems. Advertising in upscale magazines seems like a great idea, but after receiving their media kits and price schedules it's a bit prohibitive. Word of mouth marketing seems to work for a great many upscale craftsman, but surviving until you have that reputation is another thing. my page

[AlanL]

I can vouch for what Peter said. After 10 years (slow learner ) of making people pay for the work they had asked for, but chose not to pay for, I upped my prices. Now the only people who get me to do work are those that can and will pay. That, and I make certain that if anyone is going to pull out, it will be me. I last sacked a client two years ago because they started making unreasonable demands against the value of what they wanted.

In our business I insist on progress payments for any job that will take longer than a month. That means the costs don't mount up for the customer and outlays can be monitored more rigorously. From my end, it is good for cashflow to have it coming in at a steady rate than all at a rush, while eating cornflakes between times. I don't know how long it takes most boat builders to complete projects, but I would think that unless you have say two or three jobs pending, one going out the door and a couple on the floor, you would be suffering greatly from boom/bust monetary conditions. That to me is an unhealthy economic place to be (been there, done that). If you can't maintain that kind of capacity, perhaps the progress payment plan is an option.

Contracts are enforcible only so long as the customer has the money to pay. Maybe you could take a lien on the project, but that would leave you in the same situation you are in now. You need to be careful with contracts because you may give them the right to claim the boat, despite the fact it has not been paid for (for example, you agree to deliver upon completion, but not dependent upon it having been paid for). Depending on the size of the project some other form of guarantee may be required, say a guarantor?

For our boat I chose to pay as we went. It meant the cost was higher than if it had been quoted, but we could also make minor modifications and pay for them at the end of each month. It meant the boat builder could get in hired help when he needed extra muscle and that he could pay at the end of the month. This suited both of us.

Alan

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Peter, thank you for the excellent advice. You are telling me what I need to hear. Like boatbuilding, marketing isn't rocket science. I just need to clarify who my customer is and not forget it. Then have my product in front of those people that desire and can afford a unique, quality, expensive item. my page

[Patrick Mertaugh]

AlanL, I have noticed that as my rate increases, the quality of clientel increases. I'm also in a tough spot with workload. I have more work than I can complete on my own, but not quite enough to keep 2 people busy. I have part-time unskilled help, which is great, but takes much of my time making sure he has what he needs to do the job. It seem that your either a one-man show or your a manager. my page

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

A pleasure Patrick. It's somewhat self serving. We all know, as consumers, what it's like to look for someone competent and find they've been driven out of the marketplace. What is left is often the idiots.

[Venchka]

As a minimum, try to get out in front of the public with a sample of your work. The Museum in St. Michael's has a woodenboat festival in October. There must be others around the Bay.

The sample doesn't have to be big. Something you can car top or throw in a pick up. It should demonstrate your skills. Case in point: the builder I finally selected had a 12' lapstrake dinghy he took to shows. White cedar, steam bent oak, copper rivets, inside varnished so all the details showed, hand made locust chocks & cleats. The boat said, "I know how a boat should be built" very quietly but very elegantly. I selected this builder to build a glued lap plywood boat. Very different from his sample yet very similar. I knew he had the right skills looking at his dinghy.

Presentation. Presentation. Presentation.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

ps: I'm not in the BMW/M-B set. I had a fixed budget and had all the boat I could afford built. Folks like me are out there too.

[ 07-20-2005, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Venchka, thanks, it's good to hear an actual story from someone who bought a custom wooden boat. Great advice and good empirical data.
my page

[AlanL]

Yeah, been in management roles, etc. I, like you, run a small outfit, a little larger than a one man band. I have employed people in the past but now I choose not to. The nature of business I am in makes it a useful way to work, that and I get stir crazy if I have to do the same job for too long (I do computer stuff mainly, but the dynamics are much the same for all small business people).

Do you have a chamber of commerce near you? If so I would strongly recommend joining. They usually offer marketing courses, sales courses, cut price access to mailing lists for advertising and other members often offer special rates for chamber members, especially for things like shared advertising space, etc. Otherwise, local polytechs often have similar courses (not sure what you might call them, community colleges?)

Edited to add:
Hey, how about this? Instead of taking the whole boat to a show, why not take a cross section? Say about a foot length of the beam of a boat. This shows how you made it and people just love to see the inside of stuff. You could make a little collapsible stand with tags that explain what things are, why copper was used here, why stainless steel was used there,...

Just a thought [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-20-2005, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: AlanL ]

[Patrick Mertaugh]

AlanL, Good advice, I'll look into the local chamber. I've thought of making some sort of cross section, model, or other demo pieces to take to show to illustrate different construction methods. I just have to make the time to do these things.
my page

[mdevour]

Patrick,

Great thread. Good advice.

One small suggestion: I'd like to see a different picture on your main page. You in a mask with a bunch of tools on the workbench doesn't make it.

Instead, borrow, if necessary, something finished and shiny, and get a picture of you polishing the brightwork or something. At least lets have a good hull shape in the process of being built or restored, preferably upright.

Gotsa see a pretty boat in there, mate!

Good luck to you.

Mike D.

[Norske3]

What kc8 said...50% down...NOT REFUNDABLE!............remaining 50% paid when boat is 75% completed.

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Thanks M. G. Devour, your right I need some eye candy in there. It takes so much effort to get a decent web site that sometimes the important details get lost.
my page

[Venchka]

I dug this out of my musty moldy archives. It is representative of the quotes I got.

Our terms of business are:

25% on placement of order
25% on turning of hull
25% prior to painting and varnishing
25% on completion

I hope this helps.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[pipefitter]

And,in the custom marine industry(mine is marine metal fabricating),50% down is the going rate on custom items.That usually will cover labor and materials.

[mmd]

In big boat and international deals, it is not uncommon to have a disinterested third party involved. The builder (or designer, as the case may be) and the client work out a contract to specify what work is to be done, what price is to be paid for the work, and when and how much is to be paid. The contract is signed and notarized, and a copy is given to a lawyer retained as a trustee for the project. The client then deposits all of the agreed price to the lawyer to hold in trust. When the builder hits a milestone, he goes to the lawyer, who confirms that the work to be done to satisfy the milestone requirements is really done, and if so, releases the proper amount of money to the builder. The lawyer is also set up to arbitrate issues like who pays for the costs involved change orders and unforseen cost overruns. In this way, the client knows that his money is safe and the builder won't run off with it (or use it on other projects - ask me how I know!!), and the builder has confidence that he will get paid. The tustee fee is, of course, paid by the client as part of the expense of the build.

[Tristan]

Originally posted by pipefitter:
[QBOne old guy even stuck a check in my top pocket insisting that I sell it to him.[/QB]

When Bill Healy built boats in Miami he usually built them for himself, used them for a while, then succumbed to someone's offer. My friend Jack Fell wanted Pago Pago, a nice little sloop that Bill had built the year before. They were drinking beer in a little bar on the Miami River when Jack started in on how he wanted that boat. Healy implied that he might sell if the price was right. Jack's price wasn't quite right. More beer flowed and finally Healy had to put his head down on the bar and take a little nap. Jack wrote out a check, stuck it into Healy's shirt pocket, and went home. A couple days later Jack ran into Healy who looked worried. After a few minutes of small talk Healy finally asked the question, "Jack, did I sell you my boat?"

[chergui]

Some comments from a west coast buyers perspective.. seems as I was a buyer until last year. It seems to me that east coast boats take far longer to sell than west coast boats, and at a much lower price. And I've talked to other buyers who have said the same thing, and it's not specific to wooden boats. I talked to one guy in seattle who said he will be buying his next boat from the east coast and trucking it back. It would still be cheaper. This was an expensive boat though. I haven't taken a look at what you're selling. For cheaper boats, say in the <30K range, I've found that even shipping it over here, it would cost the same and sometimes less than if I bought it here. The obstacles for older boats is mainly not having a recent survey available. The benefits are having more to choose from. But if I were to buy again I would still consider doing it this way.

Some boats I saw for sale two years ago when I first started looking around at boats are still for sale on the east coast. Perhaps you could try making it "visible" to west coast buyers and find a company that would truck it over here so that buyers wouldn't have to bother with that, and have a ballpark figure available if someone were interested. It wouldn't take a lot of work and your part and who knows. I'd hate to see you end up giving it away. Suggest this as an option on your web site.

I was ready to give up until I luckily found a very nice west coast boat for sale that I recognized from the wooden boat festival in port townsend, advertised in WB.

[outofthenorm]

Hi Patrick. As a life long marketer and ad guy, I wanted to say that you've received some outstanding advice here - especially about pricing and contracts. The suggestion to put something shiny on the home page is bang-on. Sorry, but you in your casual duds doesn't cut it.

I also think that the copy doesn't do you justice either. This is what I did for living for a long time, so I just couldn't resist taking a stab at some new words for you.

Here's your current copy:

Located near the Choptank River on the Eastern Shore of Maryland, Choptank Boatworks is a one person boatshop specializing in wooden boatbuilding, repair, yacht carpentry, and fine woodworking.
Trained at the Landing School of Boatbuilding and Design and with years of experience in the marine industry, owner Patrick Mertaugh has extensive experience building and repairing all types of wooden
boats using both traditional and modern methods and materials.
Thank you for taking the time to visit Choptank Boatworks. As you look through the services provided and the past and current projects please feel free to contact Patrick on your boat project.

Instead, May I suggest

Located near the Choptank River on Maryland’s historic Eastern Shore, Choptank Boatworks is where builder/designer Patrick Mertaugh crafts classicly inspired boats of impeccable quality. Patrick’s gift for bringing new boats to life and restoring older ones is appreciated by a growing list of customers – people who understand that there is no substitute for fine workmanship and a practiced eye.

As the owner of Choptank, Patrick applies the appropriate traditional and modern methods and materials to every commission, practicing skills acquired at the Landing School of Boatbuilding and Design and honed during years of experience in the marine industry.

So when you are considering a new boat, looking for an experienced shipwright to repair or restore the boat you have, or you are simply ready to raise the standard of work you want done, don’t hesitate to call Choptank Boatworks and speak directly to Patrick Mertaugh. Until then, we bid you welcome and hope you enjoy your visit to our little corner of the world of fine boats, large and small.

It's the same thing, just crafted to sell to a more monied audience. Of course if you hate it, then I wasn't here.

- Norm

Norm

[Mrleft8]

When someone asks you to build something for them, get a deposit. I get 100% materials, 50% labor (estimated) up front. That way If I get stiffed, it's not money out of my pocket, just money I should have gotten that I didn't.

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Norm, Very nicely written. I appreciate your expertise, and if I can use your words I'd love to buy you dinner if you ever get down this way. Don't come in July - it's hot. I'll have my in house marketing department (the Mrs.) update the site asap. I'll to dig up some better pictures. I hadn't been very good about photos until I put up the website.
my page

[outofthenorm]

No problem Patrick. Use it as you will, and I truly hope that it and the advice everyone has given you works wonders for your business.

As for your kind offer, thanks! The crab is good in Maryland, I hear. No plans anytime soon, but you never know. And as for hot - well it's hot everywhere these days!

Good luck

- Norm

[Patrick Mertaugh]

Thanks to everyone for their insight. It was really very helpful and obviously a lot of thought was put in to it. I don't usually have time to use forums but since I'm standing by the computer for this ebay item I was lucky enough to get everyones advice. I'll try to repay your kindness by helping forum members with something I do know about - boatbuilding.
Thanks again, Patrick
my page

[Hughman]

Nice country thereabouts, Patrick. I drove the Fawcetts truck one summer, and I remember a one man boat shop under every bush in Talbot Co. Guys would have a herd of Trumpys in covered slips in every gunkhole, along with custom cars planes, you name it.

Point is, you got competition, so you need to stand out, and that can be expensive.

Good advice, above. But find your buyers among the well heeled dreamers on the western shore (AKA chicken neckers), where the bucolic mythology of the eastern sho' promises relief from all the traffic jams.

And raise your prices.

[Brian Palmer]

Patrick,

In your neck of the woods, don't overlook a simple ad in the Washington Post or Baltimore Sun to the sell the boat you have on hand. I sold a sharpie that way, long ago. Not too far a drive for someone to look seriously at a boat. Could be very cost-effective.

Just my $0.02.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Ask Tom Moser (the well-known cabinetmaker who advertises in the Atlantic and The New Yorker, has pieces in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, etc.) about this stuff. Last I knew he still had a 45' Laurent Giles cutter he was re-building, so maybe you can swap him a little help on something in exchange for some advice, which will be VERY good.

He SHOULD have a little spare time, since he's (in theory, at least) retired, and his sons are running the company.

Here's a link to his website---

http://www.thomasmoser.com/home/index.php

If you get in touch with him as I suggest, then you're welcome to blame me for the idea. Just tell him that Al Hyde said he could help you, and that he might give you some great things to run with...

Alan

[coconutjack]

When Bill Healy built boats in Miami he usually built them for himself, used them for a while, then succumbed to someone's offer. My friend Jack Fell wanted Pago Pago, a nice little sloop that Bill had built the year before. They were drinking beer in a little bar on the Miami River when Jack started in on how he wanted that boat. Healy implied that he might sell if the price was right. Jack's price wasn't quite right. More beer flowed and finally Healy had to put his head down on the bar and take a little nap. Jack wrote out a check, stuck it into Healy's shirt pocket, and went home. A couple days later Jack ran into Healy who looked worried. After a few minutes of small talk Healy finally asked the question, "Jack, did I sell you my boat?"

To fine tune the story, Bill and I were friends and we had been discussing the boat for many weeks, One evening in spring of 1969, while sitting at the bar, I gave Bill a check for the boat to see if he would accept that price. He didn't say a word, yes or no, he kept drinking beer and would look at the check, stick it in his pocket, then pull it out and slam it on the bar, then pick it up and put it in his pocket, followed by another check slam on the bar. The routine went on for the duration of many beers. Finally, Bill fell asleep at the bar, with the check on the bar. I put the check in MY pocket and several of us got Bill back to the boat.

Two or three days later, I went to see Bill at Maule Lake, where he was building Te Heva. The hull was upside down and Bill was up on the area of the keel. I climbed up and we discussed the building progress and many other things. Then Bill asked if he had sold Pago Pago to me. He couldn’t find the check. I said – I dunno, did you? Here is the check if you want it. He grabbed it, and the boat was mine.

As a postscript to the story, Bill and I remained friends for many years and Pago had a lifetime guarantee: unfortunately, Bill’s. We miss him.

You can see a picture of Pago Pago: Woodenboat May-June 2012 pg 139.

[JimConlin]

Set up your payment schedule so that you always have enough of the customer's money that you won't be sad to see him walk.

[Roger Cumming]

I bought a boat from a maritime museum by first chartering it. The boat had been donated and the museum had to wait a period of time before offering the boat for sale so they offered to charter it. At the end of the charter (I think it was for two months) if I wanted to buy it the money already spent on the charter would be credited toward the purchase price. I was an experienced sailor so there was little chance of the boat being abused but it was insured. Perhaps this would be a way for a potential buyer to try the boat out before purchasing it. Chartering the boat for a month is less of a commitment and if the buyer decides against buying some revenue has been generated. It also gets the boat out into circulation. In my case at the end of the charter I was very attached to the boat.

[Hwyl]

To fine tune the story, Bill and I were friends and we had been discussing the boat for many weeks, One evening in spring of 1969, while sitting at the bar, I gave Bill a check for the boat to see if he would accept that price. He didn't say a word, yes or no, he kept drinking beer and would look at the check, stick it in his pocket, then pull it out and slam it on the bar, then pick it up and put it in his pocket, followed by another check slam on the bar. The routine went on for the duration of many beers. Finally, Bill fell asleep at the bar, with the check on the bar. I put the check in MY pocket and several of us got Bill back to the boat.

Two or three days later, I went to see Bill at Maule Lake, where he was building Te Heva. The hull was upside down and Bill was up on the area of the keel. I climbed up and we discussed the building progress and many other things. Then Bill asked if he had sold Pago Pago to me. He couldn’t find the check. I said – I dunno, did you? Here is the check if you want it. He grabbed it, and the boat was mine.

As a postscript to the story, Bill and I remained friends for many years and Pago had a lifetime guarantee: unfortunately, Bill’s. We miss him.

You can see a picture of Pago Pago: Woodenboat May-June 2012 pg 139.

Great story, I knew Bill at River Bend in FLL when he was building "The Healy Ark" good times

[JimConlin]

You're not alone.

http://www.lymanmorse.com/auction.php

[Paul Pless]

When Bill Healy built boats in Miami he usually built them for himself, used them for a while, then succumbed to someone's offer. My friend Jack Fell wanted Pago Pago, a nice little sloop that Bill had built the year before. They were drinking beer in a little bar on the Miami River when Jack started in on how he wanted that boat. Healy implied that he might sell if the price was right. Jack's price wasn't quite right. More beer flowed and finally Healy had to put his head down on the bar and take a little nap. Jack wrote out a check, stuck it into Healy's shirt pocket, and went home. A couple days later Jack ran into Healy who looked worried. After a few minutes of small talk Healy finally asked the question, "Jack, did I sell you my boat?"

To fine tune the story, Bill and I were friends and we had been discussing the boat for many weeks, One evening in spring of 1969, while sitting at the bar, I gave Bill a check for the boat to see if he would accept that price. He didn't say a word, yes or no, he kept drinking beer and would look at the check, stick it in his pocket, then pull it out and slam it on the bar, then pick it up and put it in his pocket, followed by another check slam on the bar. The routine went on for the duration of many beers. Finally, Bill fell asleep at the bar, with the check on the bar. I put the check in MY pocket and several of us got Bill back to the boat.

Two or three days later, I went to see Bill at Maule Lake, where he was building Te Heva. The hull was upside down and Bill was up on the area of the keel. I climbed up and we discussed the building progress and many other things. Then Bill asked if he had sold Pago Pago to me. He couldn’t find the check. I said – I dunno, did you? Here is the check if you want it. He grabbed it, and the boat was mine.

As a postscript to the story, Bill and I remained friends for many years and Pago had a lifetime guarantee: unfortunately, Bill’s. We miss him.

You can see a picture of Pago Pago: Woodenboat May-June 2012 pg 139.

Thread drift here: But Jack, have you heard from Tristan, he's been absent from the forum for over a year and left abruptly. I've asked after him a few times without any response. . .