Rhodes 40 Cutter

[Doug Tutty]

I may soon have the pleasure of owning a Rhodes 40 Cutter, built 1954. I've been on here before looking for a year-round live-aboard for my wife and I (see "oak boat" et al).

This Rhodes is mehogony on oak, with teak cockpit. Its Marconi Cutter Rig with an aluminum mast (the origional wood one burned in a rig-bard fire in Thunder Bay. New sails -full batten main, roller Genny.

Questions for you all (thank you for all your previous help)

We love the boat; is it a wise purchase to live on ($48,000 CDN)?

Neither one of us has sailed. I plan to have the boat delivered to our winter slip, do the book-courses over the winter, and take sailing lessons next season. Then have a sail-master come aboard and teach me to sail it.

The boat will be in the water year-round except for hauling for underbody painting and maintenance, and surveys.

I searched for Rhodes and saw some beautiful pictures of a Yaul. Some of those where Marconi and some Gaff. The mast on this boat is Aluminum, and at some point I'll want a wood mast (my wife is allergic to aluminum) Would a Gaff cutter (with topsail) be appropriate, and where would I get the origional plans/sail plans etc.

Thanks; a lot of questions, but hopefully a lot of grist for the discussion mill.

Doug.

[TimH]

pix? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Doug Tutty]

Pics are at http://martinkimble_1.tripod.com/ (incase I can't make the link work).

Dolphin III

Any thoughts on the maintenance issues if we live a board year round near (but not in!) Toronto? I understand that boats left in need less than those hauled out for Winter.

[Ian McColgin]

I've lived aboard with two of us in Goblin which, while 43' on deck was only 33' on the water, may have a bit more beam than the Rhodes but the cabin space was comperable.

You will go in stages:

The boat as laid out is not really designed as a live-aboard. It's laid out for short haul cruising. Since you probably don't know enough yet to massivly rebuild the interior, you will be called upon to make some major life-style modifications. Rent a shore locker and build in lockers for easy access so that you can get stuff daily or even more than daily. Try to keep too much stuff from wandering aboard.

If she's not got a great cooking stove, get one.

If you have a reliable shore power supply, think about electric heat for this winter. The heavey black box ceramic heaters that used to retail at about $100 seem the best. Even it you have a shore-line I'd not put it on the ship's power. You'll need a minimum of 30amp service to feed regular power and the heater and even at that you may find things getting hot. Better by far to get a heavey dedicated line from the dock recepticle to the heater alone - duct tape it in a porthole if you must. Make your own female plug end with circuit breaker.

If you really want to plug the heater in inside, realize that your fire insurance just cancelled.

This is not really hard - and it isolates the biggest problem. By the way, I'm not talking common extension cord here. You're likely to have a 50' run. Blow the bucks on one of those bodaceous yellow shoreservice cords with 30Amp at each end - you'll just need an adapter on the inside.

If you've already got shore service with a hubble through-fitting, that's nice. Feed the lights from the ship's system but not the heat unless it's exceptionally robust.

Make a full boat cover from sunbrella. Easiest and best is to fit 3/4" pvc hoops gunnel to gunnel in a nice arch and then measure from that to get the shape. I've found it easier to make it in (for sloops) 2 sections joining at the mast. Have a bit of overlap and join with seperat tabs and grommetts. Around the stays is fussy. G'luck.

If you provide tubes inside the sunbrella to recieve the PVC, have them end above the livelines. That way you're room to lash the pipe to the stauncheons. The cover might well hang down perhaps halfway to the water level. Heavily bolt-rope the bottom. Pop in some heavey grommets every 3' or so and suspend roughly 1 gallon jugs that have been filled with sand and then water just to get the air out. The jugs should hang in the water.

This should hold it down.

Make 3 or 4 tabs on center outside on top of the main part of the cover so you can make a bridle and hang it somewhat from a hallyard. That will keep it from collapsing with a snow load.

The difference in heating with the cover, v. without, more than off-sets the pain of making a good cover.

More if you ask.

[Doug Tutty]

Thanks.

The boat comes with a full winter cover that allows walk-around room on deck (for maintenance). Unfortunately its solid grey; the owner thinks that adding transparent panels to match up with the ports will let in more light.

Over winter, the marina supplies two 30A shorepower hookups. I don't know how much juice a bubbler uses.

It currently has a propane system (with automatic sniffer hooked up to a solonoid vlave), flick the switch and wait a minute or so for the sniff cycle and you've got gas. Unfortunatley, I'm allergic to the smelly stuff (mercaptions) in propane, and Jane has chemical sensitivities. For now, we'll cook on electric (we've been using a one-burner while camping since May). Later, we'll see; I like the diesels since the combustion is contained. At that point, I'll probably add a diesel coolant-heater and use hydronic heating (small finned fan heaters around the boat).

[Ian McColgin]

I've a Dickenson which this year, finally, will get the hot water tanks added.

I saw a wonderful system in Boston - guy had a Dickenson with hot water. Mounted such that most of the water movement happened from convection but he had a wonderful european induction motor in the pipe to push things along when he wanted.

Along the sole and just at kidney height on the side benches he had inlaid a lovely bronze fillagree in an attractive pattern. The water moved through that. Just glorious.

I put an 'eco-fan' on my dickenson. The drip oil type heater has about the lowest top surface temp that will make the eco-fan work. If you've any type of solid fuel heater, the eco-fan will really crank. It helps to have some sort of chain or wire keeper so the eco fan won't topple as the boat moves a bit.

Basicly, this cool giz works off the current created when two semi-conductors of differing temperature are wired together.

It's like magic. For homes or boats. Check at
http://www.caframo.com/consumer/ecofans/ecofans.html

[Jeremy Burnett]

Andrew,I agree that Philip Rhodes was a great designer indeed its him versus Olin Stephens for the prize.Dont undersell him on gaff rig though. In the aforementioned book there are several very lovely gaff rigged designs.Seawitch,Mary Jeanne,a beautiful Redningsskoite called Caribe plus Skal that was runner up to Dorade in the 1931 transatlantic race and now lies sadly neglected in Mashfords yard in Plymouth I believe,so lets hear it for his gaff boats too.

[Paul Denison]

"No one yacht is perfect, but the Reliant comes very close to perfection in my opinion,"
Ted Brewer, Good Old Boat, May/June 2001, p. 49

These boats have always caught my eye. Check out this site, just beautiful!:

http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/rr/reliant.htm

[mmd]

Over-wintering aboard in Parry Sound? Whew! Not only do you have big ones, but they'll be blue around February.

All teasing aside, there's good info above. I have a friend who spent two winters aboard at Bluffers in Scarborough. His major complaint was cold feet - it is hard to drive that warmth down to the sole. Buy thick wool socks and leather moccasins.

[Doug Tutty]

No, not in Parry Sound. I'll fill you in briefly:

We moved here 3 years ago. 2 years ago, my wife, Jane, started having head-aches. Its taken 2 years of test to finally say that she has 1 allergies to wool and probably pine trees and 2 developed 'multiple chemical sensitivities' a.k.a. 'environmental hypersenitivities'. She is sensitive to metals; all metals except we think pure gold (see post on building/repair re gold-plating ports). The only things she can tolerate are cotton, silk, fur, leather, down, and some hardwoods (not maple). We have been camping since April. My time-line said "Oct 1: in shelter for winter". We had hail/snow on Oct 1. We're back in the house because it TOO COLD, so she'll get sicker until we move. Trying to find a structure she can tolerate had been most challenging. A 1954 Rhodes cutter seems ok: we sleep over Friday, and go sailing Saturday. We still haven't found many locations she can tolerate. Rocks are really aggregates of metalic oxides and she can't tolerate them either. We'll be over-wintering somewhere probably on Lake Ontario. We used to live in Port Credit but would rather not move back to the city. We hear that Whitby has winter services. I also want to check out Kingston, because she was pretty good there.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to bring everyone up to date. This forum stuff started for me when I asked what design NEEDS to be built out of white oak.

Thank you all for your continuing input and support.

[Jeremy Burnett]

Andrew,briefly,yes Mashfords is still there just about.We were up there in July, not much going on ,the odd fishing boat repair I think plus Skal alongside.She was advertised for sale recently.I fear it will not be long before "development" takes place.Its a good place to anchor around there why not bring Mirelle down for some good West Country Gaffering?

[Ron Williamson]

Doug
Parry Sound doesn't seem like the perfect place to be if you've got metallic rock/pine tree sensitivities.
Port Credit at least has an ice free marina or two.Too bad they're downstream from Lakeview Generating Station and the "pollution control plant".
Does your wife have mould issues? This may be a large problem with an old boat during the winter.
R

[Doug Tutty]

Granite and pine trees are why we need to move out of the whole area altogether instead of building a cabin here; the boat is more portable. The boat has been lovingly maintained and ventilated.

[Doug Tutty]

I finally went sailing (first time ever). It was the sea-trial after our trial night aboard.

The night went well; apparently the boat was moving pretty well at the dock (outer edge of the finger-slips after a day with 5 Meter [18 ft?] waves on Georgian Bay). Slept very well. Jane wasn't too bad, but continues to react to the aluminum mast.

We didn't speand much time out: the weather forcast included a water-spout advisory. Waves were about 5', wind around 20 kts. Didn't put up the full-batten main; the boat balanced fairly well on the roller-reefing 120% Genny. I guess the cutter rig puts the mast back enough for this. Before turning back we reefed the genny about 3'. It was hard slogging out into the waves but the boat didn't pound at all but had a nice motion up-through-down-splash; but the boat itself stayed dry. The broad reach back was quite pleasant.

The mast gets pulled next weekend, and the boat later in the week. We're going to see if I can help with the mast-pull and have Jane spend lots of time on the boat without the mast.

If that works for her, over the winter I'll try making a mahogany sleeve to enclose the mast. It'l look like a wooden mast from below, and separate Jane from the aluminum. If that doesn't work, I'll have to make new wooden spars (the mahogony sleeve will also separathe Jane from the softwood of the mast).

Now we need a nice marina that is away Toronto/Misissauga/Hamilton that offers winter live-aboard services (specifically washroom or pump-out, showers, hydro, and a water spigot).

Anyone know of any?

[Mrleft8]

How does water supplied by metal plumbing affect your wife?

[Doug Tutty]

Havn't solved the plumbing issue yet. Drinking water will be in glass: probobly start with Mason jars like we do now. If we buy the boat, I'll find storage for home-brew wine jugs (@2.5-5 gal) for storage: havent solved the pump part.

[Doug Tutty]

Sorry abount the typing; I have a splint on my left first finger.

A shower stall will be a fairly high priority. What hardwood is most suitable for the inside surface?

I have a book "upgrading the cruising sailboat" that suggests that if the head is on one side with a closet on the other with passage in the middle, a shower can be fitted by shallowing the closet to under the side deck and having a forward and after bulkhead with doors or curtains and a pan under a wood great at floor level; in the passage.

[Mrleft8]

Teak.

[Alan D. Hyde]

Teak has oil in it, to which I suppose she could have an allergic reaction.

Cypress is cheaper, is rot-proof, and (I have been told) is the most hypo-allergenic of woods.

You might try cypress; very old plumbing, by the way, was sometimes made of bored-out tree limbs for pipes...

Alan

[Doug Tutty]

Teak it is: so far she seems fine with teak. The cockpit is solid teak, the sole inside and out is teak.

My only hesitation on the whole boat itself is that its 'newer', built in 1954, after plywood was invented. Deck is plywood (cockpit covered in solid teak), and the underside of it is the overhead below.

Anybody know of any Rhodes boats 40-50' long, well built, before plywood?

Actually, the other hesitation on the boat is the Aluminim mast; I'll try enclosing the butt, but if that doesn't work, I'll get the origional plans and make new wood spars.

[Phil Young]

Doug,

I'll probably make a whole lot of assumptions, so try not to get antsy about it, but I'm interested in exploring the MCS thing a little if I may.

I'd have thought a boat a pretty poor place to try to isolate your wife from a whole range of chemicals and metals and woods. And some of what you are saying just doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. But I'll allow that you've been working through this for a couple of years, and what is posted here is just a fraction of the information.

Re the mast-why not paint it, seal in whatever is causing the reaction? I'm assuming there is paint all over the boat, except maybe the decks, so no problem with paint. (If paint is a problem, time to go to plan d)

Metals, you are going to have fastenings and winches and lifelines and anchor chains and an engine and a stove and a sink and metals everywhere, all in a corrosive salt environment. If your wife has a sensitivity to all metals exept Gold, a boat is probably not the best place to be.

A boat is a small, and relatively poorly ventilated space. Any paint, preservative, oil, fuel, stuff coming out of cushions, carpets, upholstery, etc etc etc is going to be more concentrated in a boat than almost anywhere else you could think of. I'm guesing you are going to remove the engine, but anything that has leaked out of the engine over the years is going to be there in the boat for years to come.

Water, you will store in plastic? But where has it come from-metal pipes?

If you've not sailed before, an engineless 40' sailboat is not going to offer you any real mobility-taking out a boat you live aboard full time can be a bit of a logistical nightmare at the best of times-ever thought what would happen if you took your house and tipped it over at 45 degrees and then shook it around a bit?

Unfortunately I don't have an answer for you, just a bunch of questions, but I'd be interested to learn more about MCS

[Doug Tutty]

Thanks for the interest: Wish the BBB let me see the post rather than relying on my memory, but here goes.

I started thinking boat when we found that Jane was sensitive to every indoor place we could find, and most common building materials: soft woods, drywall, metals, concrete, rocks, plastics of all sorts.

She can tolerate hardwoods (except maple, probably due to the frequently found mildew/spalting), cotton, silk, leather , fur, feathers, fish glue, ceramic/clay, and non-aromatic oils (e.g. almond and we think walnut, but NOT linseed). Even exotics seem OK. She plays a Brazillian Rosewood tenor recorder, but the cedar block is a problem. I play an Ebony soprano. When this all started and I was learning to make joints without glue I got a sample of cocobolo for wedges and its fine, so far.

I tried to sketch out what a cabin/house would look like only made with those materials. Foundation would have to be hardwood piers. Structure would be hardwood. Fasteners black locust treenails. Weatherproofing: good joinery.

The plan at one point was to get through the winter in a bunky made like that as a test-bed. Ordered 7,000 lbs 6/4 clear white oak and 140 bf clear black locust. But now she's allergic to pine trees and sensitive to granite (probably the metalic oxides) so building a bunkie here isn't going to work.

To me a structure made of hardwood on all 6 sides, sitting up on stilts, looked like Noah's ark waiting for the flood. The clinic in TO. said not to set down roots, find something that you can be safe in, but make it portable so you can move if the location doesn't work. This sounded like a wooden boat, and they agreed.

However, I know that a pre-made boat wouldn't be perfect and would need some adjustment. Here's my plan:

Ventilation and engine: have ventilation set up such that the fore-peak/chain locker is separatly ventilated. Fresh air drawn into the v-berth area. Engine room sealed from the living area except for designated air-path: via a "smelly closet (~1 cubic foot) " for every-day potential problems, such as cleaning products in plastic bottles. Engine room ventilated with wind-powered (with electric backup if necessary) little turbine on the afterdeck to keep engine room under slight negative pressure. The engine itself is dry and has no smell that either of us could detect either cold or running. Bilge is dry even under the engine.

Heating: Espar diesel coolant heater in engine room with appropriate unit-heaters, but haven't solved tubing/piping problem (see below on metal).

Cooking: working on it. Radiant halogen cook surface would work but it uses hydro. If can solve the metal problem, diesel stove (sealed combustion).

Rig: would preferr older gaff rig with more blocks (wooden) rather than Marconi with winches. Can more blocs and no winches be used with a Marconi cutter?

Lighting: if need be, I'll use (glass) fibre-optic.

Water: this is a problem everywhere. The only bottled water that we can get in glass is mineral water, everything else is plastic. Jane uses a Brita filter to get rid of any metal contamination, but its plastic. Water is a huge problem: pure water, H20 is extremely corrosive and leaches out anthing that will disolve in it, most of which is a problem for Jane. Drinking distilled water long term is a good way to have minerals leached out of you.

Metals in general: One option could be gold plate; suitable for some items such as binnicle but not others (winch drums). Another option could be the ceramic coating that they put on things like exhaust headers. I need to find a big chunk of metal that's been gold plated (high-end plumbing store?), a big chunk of solid gold (museum?), and ceramic coated steel (exhaust shop?). It would help if we knew the mechanism of the metalic sensitivity. Another alternative is that there's a lot of research on replacing metal parts with special ceramics. Even mundane things should be possible: if American Standard can mold a toilet, surely someone can mold me a shower drain pan. Until recently, water aboard was stored in barrels, before that amphorae.

We haven't found a sealant that works. CHMC did a research/demo house for the environmentally hypersensitivity and used a lot of something called "crystal clear", an accrylic sealant of some sort, but in retrospect say that its not recommended because of ongoing problems with it, and Jane's brother use it to seal MDF and it never stops smelling. The only thing to do is avoid problem items.

We really only have four options: stay in a motel for the winter (we remain flexible re moving), rent (tied into a lease that we may have to carry even if we need to move), or buy a boat. We haven't found any conventional indoor place where Jane feels well even after a few minutes. This boat is the first place she feels well except for specific items that are not integral to the boat.

The rig we can change if need be. The engine room we can isolate. Water tanks can be tempered glass or glass-lined (just like everyone's hot water tanks at home). Exterior sealant and finishes shouldn't bother her any more than on land. Interior finish is mostly oiled teak, with some stained/varnished ply that in the final analysis could be tastefully replaced with teak keeping the Rhode look for the most part. Interior fasteners can be dowels/pins/treenails; large ones out of black locust, small ones for drawers, etc, out of bamboo skewers. We're still working on finishes; shallac we think is OK (not the best on a boat though). We thought linseed oil, but when I finished a door in it, the new 300 lb white oak door has to stay in the storage unit. Thus we won't know about other finishes unless I do a big surface.

The boat looks, smells, and is supposed to be in perfect shape due to constant loving maintainence and a refastening 5 years ago rather than a recent restoration (with attendant smells). Other than the plywood deck, its solid hard wood. It would keep us warm for the winter and we can plan any changes; much faster than building it from scratch.

The local wooden boat yard figured it would take a good yard 3-4 years to build it from scratch for 1-2 mil. They figure it would take me 10-12 years and just having the wood delivered (no other material costs) would be 1/4 mil. The 8x12' bunkie that I was going to build cost $9,000 for the wood (which I have and can use around the boat), a house (min 400 sq ft for the bld code) 10x that. $48,000 seems a bargain.

The bottom line is that its too cold now to camp and the water and hydro are turned off at the campground next week anyway. The clinic said that as long as Jane is in what for her is a toxic environment (our house and the general area), the sicker she will become and the more sensitivities she will develop. I need to get her somewhere safe before she can't tolerate anything. Unfortunalty, there's no treatment. Hopefully, if I can get her into an environment which is better than any other place, even if not perfect, I can make improvements and she may improve too so that we arrive at a point where she is fine.

Thanks again for all your interest and support; especially the critics, I need them.

Doug.

[Doug Tutty]

I forgot: no cusions, carpeting, or upholstery. Right now we're sleeping on the kitchen floor (no popcorn on the ciling dropping silica as we sleep), but on thermarests in poly sleeping bags. Not perfect to say the least.

We have a Myan hammoc that we were going to use in the Bunkie. We'd probably rig it up in the fore-cabin.

Since Epoxy is neither solvent-based or theromsetting, we're thinking that it may work once fully cured. A small sample (one pouch from a WEST repair pack) in the bottom of a small mason jar seems OK (even if it did crack the jar). Further testing will have to wait untill Jane is in a better environment.

No carpets on the floor. Right now its the origional solid teak on the origional 3/4 plywood , oiled.

[Phil Young]

Well, good luck, sounds like a heck of a thing to be living with. Have you thought of moving to a place with a different environment, less severe weather, less cold. Go live in Far North Queensland you'd be comfy in a tent and a couple of hammocks swung from trees all year round.

[Doug Tutty]

Sounds nice, but boring to us 4-season types. The only way we could afford to go there is to buy a boat and sail there.

What's the appropriate ceremony to change the name of a Registered Vessel (I don't know what they call it in the US, I think "Documented"). The paperwork is easy, it costs $5. What ought to be done to do it right, not invoke all the superstition about changing a name; keep King Neptune or Posidon happy. Right now the boat's name is "Dolphin III". Jane wants "Integrity".

Where is the ship's bell best located on a sailboat with a traditional wheel at the after-end of the cockpit? Right now its at the bottom of the Binnicle since it's never used. Also, other than the once-a-minute fog signal, when else is a ship's bell rung? Traditionally: every 1/2 hr?, to wake up the mate?

What is the best/traditional method of providing a whistle? Mouth (but they're plastic, on a wooden boat???), compressed air, some type of manual hand pumped whistle?

[Phil Young]

Kinda wierd questions Doug, if I may say so. There's more to boats than bells and whistles if you know what I mean. In terms of living aboard I tend to wonder if the reality is going to shatter the dream. But hey, if you are camping in the woods at the moment, it ain't gona be all that bad, whatever your dreams are.

[Doug Tutty]

Yea, I know.
Kinda wierd living too.

I know there' more to boats than bells and whistles. For our purposes it would be better if the boat had no "bells and whistles" and we could put on what we need, as we need.

Big wooden boats don't seem to be too common up here. Those that are seem to fall into two camps: the ones that havn't had bells and whistles added, but also haven't been maintained and are structual nightmares; or they've been lovingly maintained over the years and had bells and whistles added to make life more comfortable or convenient.

And, since winter is fast approaching, we're a little rushed.

[Doug Tutty]

Thanks for all the input.

We stayed on the Rhodes for a couple of days after the mast was pulled and Jane found it a problem. It seems its too new and not used enough. The bilge, exposed with the mast out, was musty and stayed that way. That in itself is probably fixable, but we couldn't isolate it; there's more plywood than I thought. All the interior cabinetry, drawers, setees, etc, were also plywood, with solid fronts and trim.

Its a beautiful boat, and exceptionally well equipped and maintained. Any 'normal' person would jump at it. Its low price just reflects that people up here don't like wooden boats; season's too short to keep the boats happy.

We'll keep looking; probably something with a solid hull and little interior so I can start from scratch with solid wood.