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Thread: Gentlemen in schooners don't go to windward...

  1. #36
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    chicken gybe.
    it happens to the best of us.

  2. #37
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    All this talk about runners... like I said, we don't use any. Much simpler, can jibe single-handed. Is it because of our rig, or are we missing something?

  3. #38
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    It's all down to the scantlings of your mast and how far aft your shrouds are George.
    Still, I am surprised you don't have them. Even if you only use them in a serious breeze or to stop the mast pumping in a seaway.
    She was designed without them ?

  4. #39
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    Apr 1999
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    Hyannis, MA, USA
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    Solid spars, good rake and lots of follow to the shrouds. Gloustermen don't need no stinkin' runners.

  5. #40
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    What Ian said. She is a Gloucester design, and as I said I reduced the mainsail a bit. I did install runners on the main topmast, on advice from the folks from the Thomas E. Lannon, who built her based on the same plans (Nokomis and Lafayette, 1903). But we only use the maintopsail in light airs - it's our first reef because of the weather helm it generates.

    Maybe we would use them in a blow at sea, but so far they just sit just aft of the main shrouds, and serve to keep the main from chafing against the shrouds when running.

  6. #41
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    Regarding staying topmasts: Most NA's favor stuff being strong but Phil Bolger designed Rose exactly to shed her topmast if kites were carried in a blow. Which she did one of her first sails in Boston, much to the amusement of many. But Bolger stands by his view that a blownaway topmast and sail will drop to leeward away from the deck and, if you were imprudent enough to be carrying that much sail, it's cheaper to make a new topmast and mend the sail than many of the alternatives.

    Given how much of a pain topsails can be in a blow, I think I agree sorta.

    Note to those unfamiliar with traditional larger rigs - it's not that the solid spar is so hugely stronger than modern hollow spars. It's the weight. The rake means that the mast's weight is working against the head stays. When beating, the sail itself, peak hallyards through leech to sheets, is enough of a 'backstay' to hold the headstays tight. Off the wind, the leaning weight of the mast plus its strength are what holds things up.

    I'm sure it's happened, but I've never even heard of a traditional boat loosing it's mast off the wind due simply to the lack of (or slow set up of) runners.

    A local schooner lost the top of the foremast due to rot under the metal gaff jaws protector and one local "riggah" said they should have had running backs, but he was wrong.

    On a well rigged boat, runners are supplimental, mostly to tension a headstay. On modern boats with running check stays, the runners are to shape the mast, not really to hold it up.

    Even on a boat like the Narrasketuck with a hollow and very bendy mast, the rig did not fall over in a h igh wind gybe if the runner was not set up quickly.

    Some runners are really critical in a secondary sort of way.

    Goblin's forestaysail peak was about 8' lower than the jib's. The foretruck was supported only by a very steep triadic to the main truck. Goblin originally had a mid-triadic from the foretruck almost straight back to the main at about the point of the main runners, but this had been removed when Goblin was converted to a staysail rig.

    The upshot was that on the wind in a seaway the top of the foremast danced all over in a most alarming fashion. I cured that with a double runner (truck and at forestaysail stay) to a plate and one purchase to set up. It also did wonders in taking the rather huge jib luff sag out.

    Point is, the runners helped set up the rig nicely but did not hold up the rig, if you see the difference.

    I'd say experiment carefully with any runners your boat has to make sure of the physics. Somewhere someone saved some mast weight by making a benighted rig that really will fall down without the weather runner set. But I've not met it yet.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Gentlemen in schooners don't go to windward...

    A blast from the past, and topical too. There you go George

    Not to mention Lucky luke, Bernadette and Decatur.... Noah, Craig.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Gentlemen in schooners don't go to windward...

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post

    Not to mention Lucky luke, Bernadette and Decatur.... Noah, Craig.
    this
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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