Roller reefing gaff main

[PeterSibley]

Quite a long time ago there was a thread on the merits and other of roller reefing,as I remember ACB was a strong proponent [img]smile.gif[/img] .I've looked on the seach mode and can't find it ...anyone else?

To declare my interest I find the idea of a worm and wheel mechanism attractive. On my proposed sail plan the main is around 400 sqare foot...not huge by most standards but getting considerable .Andrew ,what do you think ?

[Ian McColgin]

I've great respect for Andrew's seamanship, for the motto "Different boats, different long splices", and I understand that almost anything works at least some of the time. None the less, I am very against roller reefing because:

The reef cannot be set until the sail is fully hoisted;

The reef cannot be set with the boom snugged down hard in the gallows;

Unless the boom is cleverly shaped or you toss in towels and such, the reefed foot will not form a correct shelf;

The worm gear is harder to use, more likely to fail, and not repairable by improvization in a hard chance than conventional reef clew and tack pendants;

The sheet and topping lift may only be attached to the end of the boom; and

No possibility of lazy jacks.

It's really hard to improve on modern slab reefing.

G'luck

[martin schulz]

But then Ian the roller reefing was invented by pilots on their boats, as I have heard. And what could be more seaworthy than a pilot-cutter?

[David W Pratt]

What Ian said.

[martin schulz]

Let me throw in this short section of a Maurice Griffiths story:

A Cruise In The Thames Estuary
...
The second day brought a very fresh and squally S.W. wind withe leaden clouds and rain, and in the general murk we plunged and leapt over the white crests in the middle of Sea Reach, with four rolls in our mainboom and only the staysail set.
...
For a time I hesitated about rounding-to and putting in a couple more rolls in the mainsail, but we were getting under the partial lee of Grain spit and would soon have the wind on our quarter.

Doesn't sound all that awful, does it? And M.G. can well be called an expert in those matters.

[outofthenorm]

I completely agree with what Ian said, especially for a gaffer because of the points about topping lifts and lazy jacks. But I would add this thought - I've always felt that one of the biggest strengths of gaff rig is that if you reef early, you can do so without rounding up. Overhaul the sheets, set up the windward topping lift, ease the peak halyard first, then the throat and down she comes, just as far as you need. So except in a truly hard chance, you don't need to worry too much about getting the boom into a gallows.

Originally posted by martin schulz:
But then Ian the roller reefing was invented by pilots on their boats, as I have heard. And what could be more seaworthy than a pilot-cutter?

Seaworthy indeed, but manned by relatively large crews of very very experienced seamen, namely the pilots themselves. They also didn't have far to go to get home if something broke.

- Norm

[Ian McColgin]

It could well be that the pilots first developed roller reefing and it may well have been an improvement over the reefing they'd had before.

Pilot boats were mainly for station tending, with easy motion especially hove-to. They had shortish booms for their day, making the movement of the sheet to the end of the boom possible. Why they'd do away with lazy jacks is beyond me.

There are boats where the roller reefing works ok and some boats where the owners positivly love them. More power to them.

Oddly, given its recent advent a scant century or so ago, boom roller reefing is more suited I think to gaff than to marconi due to the greater emphasis on a highly shaped foot on the latter.
It's hard with roller reefing around the boom to get a clean reefed foot.

It's also hard to protect the leech against point streatch unless you put in patches, at which point you may as well go whole hog and have slab reefing.

Around here I've fitted five boats, one being gaff, with slab reefing to allow the owners to stop mangling the luff in the worm gear, stop tangling the jack lines to the luff slides, and stop taking forever to put in a reef. Gave them all lazy lifts while at it and in one developed a far better main sheet lead to end transom wrap-ups when gybing.

To each their own.

[Stephen]

Carlotta (pilot boat) still sports her roller reefing worm gear.
And she has lazyjacks. They hang off the twin topping lifts. They work great.
You can reef short-handed. Pilot boats were sailed with small crews - and they sailed a far distance from port to find work. My wife can singlehandedly put a couple rolls in the main, with the sail full, on any point of sail.
It is much faster to reef than slab reefing.
By some freak of geometry you can take at least a full roll without having to touch the peak halyard.
As for gear failure - Carlotta's worm gear is quite simple and very robust - I can't see where it could possibly fail or break. I did however break the handle for the gear on a different English cutter I used to own. Luckily I already had a full 4 rolls in the sail... And this boat had a marconi main - the roller reefing worked great on that boat too.
Claud Worth describes rolling a reef into the sail before raising it. He lifts the bulk of the stowed sail up, and rolls the rest. Then he raises the whole deal. I have yet to try this - seems time consuming and a bit of work. Probably not a nice roll either - but Worth shows it's possible.
As for the luff getting caught in the gear - if the boom is topped up beforehand this can be avoided. Also - our mainsail has plenty of tabling up the luff, and a very heavy boltrope.

Lots of merits to roller reefing.
A disadvantage is that as the sailed is rolled the leech comes further inboard, and strains the boom in an unsupported area (as the mainsheet is at the end of the boom). High chance of breaking a boom - many Pilots did.

There's a small sized used worm gear for sale on the classic marine site in the used gear section.
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/oddme...ls.asp?Lot=145

[ 07-28-2005, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Stephen ]

[PeterSibley]

Firstly...thanks to everyone for the discussion.

Stephen, I'm not sure I understand the breakage problem.I can't quite see how the boom is any less supported than with slab reefing,surely support is provided by the leech .

On another point,how many turns of your worm gear handle to one roll ofthe boom?

[John B]

Peter, I agree with everything Ian said although its great to see how someone like Stephen who knows what they're doing ,can make of it. I'm sure its perfectly fine on Mirelle as well.

I replaced the roller reefing on Waione ( bermudan 430 ft mainsail) after a reefed sail one day when I observed the 5 inch boom bending in an alarming way. So Stephens comment about booms breaking is exactly why I don't want it.

Notice all the in boom furling sysyems out there now? they are just roller furling booms in a casing but with the added advantage of the casing adding some strength. What goes wrong with them is the internal roller gets stressed by a bad furl and they peel the whole roller out through the slot in the boom.
To operate them correctly the boom has to be at a dead right angle to the luff and they usually have a rigid vang plus a glass sail batten paralleling the vang to be an indicater that the boom IS at right angles. The reason I bring them up is to demonstrate how modern practise has identfied the problem with the principle. If the boom is topped up the leech runs in and gets stressed, and you end up with a full shaped sail in a breeze. If the boom droops too far , you rip the tack out of the thing .

Someone who gets it just right, knows what he is doing, can make it work.
But why bother. 400 ft? slab it down in no time.Did it for years.
If I could choose a system for a boat like yours( remember I have a period boat with a ridiculously long boom.... I have a lighter boom because of that and it needs to have the reef points tied in every time) ...I would have a loose footed mainsail or at least loose footed boom scantlings with a slab reef system. too easy.

[Stephen]

The boom can break when the leech moves inboard with the furling of the sail. The pressure of the sail is now in the middle of the boom, and the only place it's being held back is at the mainsheet and the gooseneck. It's like pushing on the middle of a dry piece of spaghetti with the ends held back.
Off the top of my head, I think it takes about a dozen turns of the handle to get one revolution of the sail.
I still say it's much easier and faster to reef than slab-reefing is:
Walk forward and take up on one of the topping lifts.
Stick the handle in the gear.
Start turning.
After about one roll, you may have to ease the peak halyard in one hand as you turn the handle with the other.
Take up on the peak with the jigger.
Ease the topping lift if needed.
Have tea.

I think Lunenburg might have a pattern of the old Appledore reefing gear.

Slab reefing has it's disadvantages too. Who wants the risk of standing on a heaving afterdeck in the dark trying to hook and pull in a reefing pendant?
With either system, anticipation is the key - put in a reef in advance of when you need it.

[John B]

Its the golden rule isn't it. Think you may need a reef then put it in.
He won't need pendants Stephen. I just have full boom length reefing lines. different line different reef. His boom will only be what ... 16 ft? build it hollow and run the reef lines inside for that matter, just like a modern ali boom.

[Ian McColgin]

I'm with John. No cruiser goes out without having reefing clew pendants that can be operated from either the mast base or the cockpit - wherever the hallyard and lift lines are led.

So, if you're at your mooring and want to sail off in a nice Force 7, how exactly does the roller reefer get it all set without lots of flogging about?

[Stephen]

I've raised the full main in a force 7 without any concern to flogging.
Everything is so heavy on my boat that there's not a lot of violent shaking going on.
Peter - I will give my support in favour for roller reefing and leave it at that.

[John B]

Stephen ,I don't think there's any disputing that its right for your boat.
Are you careful about how the boom is topped when you're reefing? Do you top it to a particular mark or is it not an issue? I guess the thing about a near to vertical leech of a relatively low angle gaff and short boom ( relative to boat length)is that it offers more 'leeway' as far as that goes.?
the other thing that occurred to me( I haven't gone back and re read your earlier post).. what do you do with the hoops? You can unclip them ?

[Hwyl]

I love roller reefing. I somehow agree with everything that Ian says, but know he's wrong. I've sailed with roller reefing (I'm trying to think of what else, slab of course and in the mast roller furling and a schooner, just take another sail down).

Roller reefing is great; nuff said.

[ 07-29-2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[Carlsboats]

If you decide to go with the roller, I have the two ends for a boom that came off a 40 foot boat we converted to slab reefing years ago. The wooden boom itself is gone, but I kept the end fittings. These are bronze, strong, and I am sure big enough to handle 400 square feet. Contact me if you think you can use them. Otherwise I'll turn them into lamp bases.

[Carlsboats]

If you decide to go with the roller, I have the two ends for a boom that came off a 40 foot boat we converted to slab reefing years ago. The wooden boom itself is gone, but I kept the end fittings. These are bronze, strong, and I am sure big enough to handle 400 square feet. Contact me if you think you can use them. Otherwise I'll turn them into lamp bases.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Well, pretty obviously, I am with Stephen.

First, Ian's list:

The reef cannot be set until the sail is fully hoisted;

not so; see below

The reef cannot be set with the boom snugged down hard in the gallows;

true, but since you dont need to go dancing across the deck tying in reef points, there is no reaosn to snug the boom into the gallows to reef.

Unless the boom is cleverly shaped or you toss in towels and such, the reefed foot will not form a correct shelf;

Not true for a gaff sail where the boom is steeved up sensibly; see Tom Cunliffe's remarks on this

The worm gear is harder to use, more likely to fail, and not repairable by improvization in a hard chance than conventional reef clew and tack pendants;

I respectfully, but entirely, disagree!

The sheet and topping lift may only be attached to the end of the boom; and

true

No possibility of lazy jacks.

true

Now, my own comments:

Disadvantages -

1. The boom may break. This is a real risk, though it is always possible to rig a relieving tackle (I have done so, a few times - you put a strop round the boom, where the leech meets the boom, put a tackle on that, secured to something suitable such as the runner fall chainplates, harden the tackle and ease the sheet). You have now triangulated your boom nicely and it won't get chucked about. QED! However, this is something to do when you have 100 miles under your lee, not something you do coasting.

2. No lazyjacks. Big deal; better without them. They have a talent for getting frapped up in things, in a blow.

3. Hard to put a reef in on the mooring. This has yet (in 21 years) to prove a problem. I did once use a lacing through the lacing eyes (which every roller reefing main should have, at the close reef position) but, like Stephen, I have often hoisted the main and rolled the reef in head to wind. The mainsail is a heavy proofed cotton cloth. It is not difficult to do.

Advantages:

1.No reef tackle, pendants, etc to get afoul of other gear (this is a very real issue!)

2. Speed of operation. Roller is much faster.

3. Less need for brute force (show me a man who does not struggle to get the clew earring down tight, with points reefing, on a big boat, and I will show you a liar!)

4. Idiot proof (no risk of casting off the clew pendant with a reef point still tied down and tearing the sail)

5. No risk of tearing or chafing the sail due to fouling of the cloth in the bee blocks when hauling down the clew pendant.

6. No need for the crew to go dancing down the deck tying in points with associated risk of goin OB.

I can probably think of some more.

[ 07-30-2005, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[John B]

don't you just love this place. see, when someone who knows what they're doing, there is no issue..

But I must be a liar or there's no room in your equation for a winch there Andrew. I have one of those lovely little murrays whose only job is to make that clew get right on in there. And in the same way that there's a right and a wrong way to lace a luff.. there's a right way to set up a slab reef which doesn't crunch up the foot /clew of the sail.
Roller reefing wouldn't work for me without a boom rebuild and the boom weight ramifications of that but I thoroughly respect that it works for you and Stephen on your boats.
If you were building the thing from scratch like Peter would you go to the expense of the special fittings required ?
I still think slab reefing is simpler and if you remove the points from the equation( I wish I could) its very quick.

[PeterSibley]

posted by JohnB
His boom will only be what ... 16 ft? build it hollow and run the reef lines inside for that matter, just like a modern ali boom.
The sail plan as drawn (by me)and loosely based on scaled down version of Luke Powell's 42 foot Lizzie May ,has a 22 foot boom and it will be a solid pole [img]smile.gif[/img]

The boom may break. This is a real risk, though it is always possible to rig a relieving tackle (I have done so, a few times - you put a strop round the boom, where the leech meets the boom, put a tackle on that, secured to something suitable such as the runner fall chainplates, harden the tackle and ease the sheet). You have now triangulated your boom nicely and it won't get chucked about. QED! However, this is something to do when you have 100 miles under your lee, not something you do coasting.
Ahhhhhhhh! Now thats an idea !Thank you Andrew.

Thanks to all contributers,I continue to learn! Ain't the forum grand [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Tom Lathrop]

I agree with Ian and would never have a roller reefing boom. Used them and seen others try to use them. People who practice and can get around their idiosyncracies may like them and do a good job but, in my experience, they are always inferior to a good slab reefing setup and never result in a well set main shape. When racing, a decent crew can slab reef a main in less than a minute and get a good shape.

When single handing, I can hove to and reef my main in about the same amount of time. Add to that the mechanical contrivances and disadvantages of the rolling boom and It makes me wonder why anyone would prefer it but to each his own.

I like all reefing controls at the mast and find that both easier and less likely to give trouble than leading lines to the cockpit. The single line slab reefing systems are very error prone and take longer than separate lines for the luff and clew.

When racing a 22 foot boat with my sons in strong wind, we would reef at the leeward mark and unreef at the windward mark with almost no loss in speed. I don't think that would be remotely possible with a roller boom. With mains large enough to need a ring to anchor the tack rather than a line, the job takes a little longer.

This looks one of those topics where the opposing sides are not going to get together.

[ 07-31-2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Tom Lathrop ]

[John B]

22ft! whoops. same as Waione's ( or was it 21?)when we were bermudan. 28 now.
I visited the pilot cutter on friday Peter. He's had two other boats come into the shop so progress has been slow. couple of photos added in building repair FYI.

[John B]

one of the regrets I have with the removal of this gear was the beautifully made mechanical outhaul .
About a 2 ft long thread with handle that ran the clew car up and down. The handle reverses and closes away into a hole in the end of the fitting.

Of course from a practical point of view, you have to adjust the foot when head to wind but.. that disadvantage was eclipsed by the pleasure I inevitably get from the use of a well made bronze fitting. Nice bit of engineering. I then made a boom crutch which had a male fitting instead of the 'crutch' part. It socketed into the hole the handle also was designed to fold into and made it very quick , clean and simple to set up.

edit.I meant to use this photo.


[ 07-31-2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: John B ]

[PeterSibley]

John, could you post the pilot cutter URL again ? I had a crash a while ago and a few things seem to have disappeared,
Peter
You're right about the fittings ...beautiful stuff [img]smile.gif[/img] I've done a fair bit of amatuer pattern making and bronze casting,that's very good work.

[John B]

Gidday Peter, Its just about 10 topics down in building repair.

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ul...c;f=1;t=011373
do you have any images of your boat? plans or anything ?

[John B]

I have photos of most of Tern II's fittings if you're interested .( as designed/built by Claude Worth.) Taken a couple of years ago.


Tern II album

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

"Would I go for roller reefing, if building from scratch?"

On a gaff rigged boat, of suitable type*, yes. I would expect to pick up the fittings secondhand and refurbish them (that's where my present worm gear came from; she had a rather nasty ratchet gear when I bought her)

* i.e., mast well into the boat, foot of sail laced to boom, boom well steeved up or if not well steeved up then longish gaff in relation to boom (the angle the leech makes with the boom is critical).

Examples of suitable types - Bristol Channel pilot cutter, Falmouth Quay punt.

Examples of less suitable types - Colchester smack, Friendship sloop, catboat.

I would roller reef the foresail of a gaff rigged schooner, but probably not the mainsail.

On a bermudian rigged boat, again, it depends on type. 50's or 60's offshore racer, with masthead rig - yes, definitely. (Interesting that Jeremy Howard-Williams in his book "Sails" (pub. 1967) considers the subject closed with the decision in favour of roller!) In the case of a different arrangement I am not so sure.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks for the photo of Tern II's Worth gear, John - I have never seen one, and they must be very rare. A fast, powerful and very strong gear, better than worm roller, I imagine. But I dare say it is fiddly to set up.

For those who don't know it - the reefing handle has a fork that fits over the end and it is used to shove the ratchet visible in the end of the boom round. The second ring in the picture (the one with the eye on it) is anothet ratchet which takes the twisting strain via the eye to a wire set up at the deck.

Being a bit of an old clock fancier, I should perhaps observe that Worth's gear is similar to the way you wind up a long case clock. Maybe Worth liked old clocks?

Alas not having an account could not enter the album.

[ 07-31-2005, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Craig-Bennett ]

[Hwyl]

Great pictures John, I left a guestbook comment.

"Saddle up"



Andrew, you have a PM

[ 07-31-2005, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Hwyl ]

[John B]

.Its a significant boat. So is Maud.I posted a F/S link for her a week or two ago somewhere.
Try this link Andrew.
Tern II Imagestation invitation.

[PeterSibley]

Hello John. The drawings I drafted for the boat are unfortunately too faint to reproduce and so far building has been a little slow ,just stem,stern and keel plus the counter frame.Things should get a move on fairly soon though as a bit of free time is approaching.I'll post photos when they won't embarrass me [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Thanks Hwyl and John.

Facinating - Some of her details are common to "Mirelle" (which was clearly designed with a copy of "Yacht Cruising" open on the drawing table!) - these include the rudder hangings, chainplates fitted over channels, and things like that, and some are very different.

"Mirelle" has the dinghy hoisting system designed by Worth for "Tern II" and it is a great sucess.

"Bird of Dawning" has that mast winch - it works really well. Pascal Atkey made them to Worth's drawings - if you see one at a boat jumble, buy it.

[PeterSibley]

That form of anchor winch is on Frank Mulvilles's ISKRA too,I haven't seen it here.

Andrew,could you explain the dinghy lifting system for the uninitiated ?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Invented by Worth for Tern II and illustrated with photos of her in "Yacht Cruising".

You have ringbolts on the stem and transom of the dinghy, fitted low down.

You have a thimble spliced to the running backstay pendant, as high as you can reach.

Hook a handy billy into the thimble on the runner and hook t'other end into the transom eyebolt.

Hook the staysail halyard into the stem eyebolt.

Worth carried a couple of planks with padding on one side which he hung on short strops from the bulwark rail to protect the topsides. These are a nice refinement that I have yet to get round to as my tender has a coir rope round it.

Anyway, you now have, for all practical purposes, a pair of davits! As with davits, it does not matter that the distance from runner to aft shroud is less than the length of the dinghy'; you can twist it through the gap.

Haul away until the tender is clear of the water and she won't bump you at anchor. Haul further up and you can turn her overswing her through the gap and park her upside down on the coachroof.

Brilliant!

I can handle a 90lbs 9ft stem dinghy this way singlehanded with very little trouble.

[PeterSibley]

Thank you Andrew....filed for reference [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-02-2005, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: PeterSibley ]