Tall Ships down ( a new book)

[J. Dillon]

Has any body read this facinating book ?

Half way through it and it seems ships originally designed for cargo and converted to sail training are compromised. Hatches too big, too much sail area, not enough ballast and finally skipper and crew errors in judgement. They can sail around for years but when a micro burst catches up it's over and down it goes.

This type of squall comes much too fast and not enough warning. Even the USCG bark Eagle took a 50 degree knock down.

Any naval architect out there ?

JD

[JeffH]

Haven't read the book, but it puts me in mind of the design philosophy behind Tri-Coastal Marine's 'Great Circle.' To quote from their web site:

"The fact is that modern SSV's spend most of their lives sailing coastwise and a vessel that is not handy, or can not go to windward under sail will simply spend most of its time powering. Likewise, the largest sailing school ships are prevented by their size and drafts from going to many desirable ports. That's why our new SSV designs are sharp schooners and barkentines with high sail area to displacement ratios and relatively little draft. Our latest design is a direct descendant of the clipper ships - the greatest sailing vessels of all times. Like her predecessors, she will have great power, speed and flexibility to sail in the ocean and coastwise. Unlike them, she will be equipped with efficient engines and modern communication equipment that will allow her to avoid hurricanes or just keep a schedule. Designed purely as a sail training ship, she will be a safe haven to her passengers and crew, an object of pride to her owners, and pure beauty to all who see her

There are no public SSV's in this country aside from the USCG Eagle. We believe that sail training is needed in this country, especially for troubled young men. On average it costs about $50,000 per year to incarcerate a kid in a correctional facility in the US. Wouldn't it be better to spent that money removing him from a corrosive environment and sending him to sea? What is more likely to allow a complete change in a young man's life -- a year in a juvenile jail or a year subject to the discipline of the sea?

Without a doubt, shipbuilding in the US was the most prolific and influential between the end of the Revolutionary War and the beginning of the US Civil War. This was Age of Sail and reached its peak during 1849 - 53 when wooden clipper ships broke records sailing around Cape Horn to San Francisco. These vessels, and their immediate predecessors the North Atlantic Packets, carried passengers across the oceans, operating without engines and largely without tugs. They evolved to be fast, weatherly and handy, qualities that were not designed for in the later bulk carriers.

Long after steam ships had taken over the passenger and high value freight trades, bulk cargos like coal, wheat and nitrate were still carried by sailing ship. By the end of the nineteenth century, these vessels grew to the then enormous size of 5,000 tons or more. They were relatively burdensome ships that were designed to sail economically before the wind. Unfortunately, many of the later bulk carriers actually became sail training vessels like the gigantic Kruzenstern. Even vessels designed specifically as sailing school ships were modeled after these freighters"

Makes sense to me. Sadly, Ocean Classrooms, the client for this design, is running at a deficit so the chances of this boat being built are slim. One can always dream, tho....



Jeff

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I think the premise is almost certainly right. If the list of schoolship casualties is extended back to the start of the last century the number of such losses of former cargo ships converted to schoolships will be seen to almost double.

A cargo carrier is intended to carry cargo and in the days when this work was commonly done by sailing ships a measure of risk was accepted.

There was a time when the term "training ship" meant, not, as it does today, "schoolship", but a vessel in cargo service carrying a large number of apprentices in addition to the regular crew. A very different sort of animal.

It would be very interesting to know what Colin Mudie, who has designed most of the present British schoolships, has to say on the subject. I was very impressed with the "Stavros Niarchos" when I saw her, but I have not seen her GZ curve. I fancy that it looks very different to that of a cargo carrying brig and even more different to that of the RN ten gun brigs, used for training, which she superficially resembles and which had a justfied reputation as floating coffins for just this reason.

[J. Dillon]

Thanks JeffH for that great picture of barkentine.
Hope more sail US waters soon.

I couldn't let your comment about inmates aboard training vessels go by. According to my wife who has spent over 15 years as a psychologist in a correctional facility for youths, any plan to put them aboard a tall ship would be a disaster. Unless only on a very limited basis to allow a maximum influence by the rest of the crew.. Most inmates in her experience are so damaged from child hood there is virtually no hope at rehabilitation except in very rare cases. The rate for incarceration after release is over 75%.. The only hope is raising children correctly from early child hood and in a loving caring environment, sadly something most inmates never had.

JD

[JeffH]

JD-

Actually, I agree with you. I should add a disclaimer that the opinions of Tri-Coastal Marine are not mine, and that I agreed with the design philosophy except for the juvenile delinquent bit. I have friends who work in Outward Bound and deal with kids who are in the program by court order, and from the stories I get from them, I couldn't imagine trying to deal with a whole boatload of them. Sad, really....

Jeff

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

The Shaftesbury Homes, a charity for such youths in Britain, used to have the PEKING moored in the Medway and after she went to South Street Seaport they built a big ketch called ARETHUSA to take such youths to sea. I moored next to her in Antwerp once and her afterguard looked pretty stressed to me - the number of them who came on board for a cup of coffee and a normal type chat was not small! Anyway, they eventually gave up the project.

[JimD]

I'm about half way through the book as well (slow reader). The loading of the Pamir with bulk (loose) grain was described as suicidal by a critic at the time, and already known to be an extreme risk to a sailboat since as the boat heels the grain shifts to the leeward side, causing more list, more shift, etc. Then Pamir ran into hurricane Carrie and that was it. The owners of Pamir could make more money with a bulk cargo because you can get more barley in a boat's hold if it wasn't bagged which was how it had always been stowed previously. An eye opening book.

[Kevin Zembower]

I too just started reading this book, and find it facinating.

For me, there's also the double connection to PRIDE OF BALTIMORE. I still remember vividly the hollowness of heart I felt when I learned that she had sunk, with the loss of life. I work on CONSTELLATION with some of her original sailors, who lost good friends. Also, the author is one of the former masters of PRIDE OF BALTIMORE II, and is very well spoken of.

-Kevin

[Dave Fleming]

I have worked a number of grain fittings.
Building the fore and aft dividers in each hold and the bracing needed.
For a 7 hold freigher it took a crew of experienced shipwrights 2 shifts for 3 days.
A couple of tons of dunnage lumber and crates of nails and spikes. All under the very critical eye of the Loading Master.

Before we even began the holds were cleaned by a longshore crew. Foxtails, paint scrapers, dust pans and flashlights were the tools used.
When we were done the sawdust was cleaned up by that same crew too.

That was a lot of money even by late 1960's rates.

Easy to see where a penny pinching company would fore go the time and expense.

[Ian McColgin]

I assume you're referring to Parrott's book, which I mentioned in passing in the Blind Faith or perhaps seatime thread and surely mentioned a year or so back.

It's a first class book, worth the attention of all.

It's also worth keeping in mind with Bolger's remarks about how he rigged Rose and with Ackerman's critique of Leavitt.

Edited to add _ Brain dead. Ackerman owned Leavitt. Davis critiqued her in WB.

[ 12-01-2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[Bruce Keefauver]

Along the same lines (forgive me) as the book there is an article in the SNAME rag Maritime Technology October 2004 on the loss of the Steel Bark "Admiral Karpfanger" ex "L'Avenir". She was a 280' cadet/cargo sailing vessel operated by the Hamburg Amerika Line at the time of her loss in 1938.

[WindHawk]

JD -

You are right, of course, about incarcerated youth receiving any benefit from sail training as highly remote; however, I spent a summer many years ago teaching adjudicated, not incarcerated, youth how to ride motorcycles. It seemed to have a very positive affect on them. I'm not sure it had any long-term influence on their lives, but I do know it gave most of them something positive from their childhoods to remember. Sadly, for a few kids, I think it was the only positive memories they ever had. I still run into them on occasion, and I'm always ammazed when they tell me how "cool" they thought I was, and how much fun they had. Heck, I was only 18, and making two bucks an hour; not many women thought I was too cool...

I cannot think of a greater gift to give a troubled child than the ability to sail. Most of us probably have a candidate a few doors down.

[rbgarr]

IIRC, the "Spirit of Massachusetts" carried some troubled teens as crew. Does anyone know how that worked out?

[Michael D. Storey]

I think that a bunch of Israelis and a bunch of Palestinians who were in command of their piece of the rock could be put to sea on a square-rigged sailer and come back with a very different view of what was really important in the world.
The same of course could be said about any two hostile parties.

[Roger Long]

Any naval architect out there ?

Look up Roger Long in the index of the book.

[Paul Pless]

I though it was an excellent book. More so than the design differences between the 'original' and what a modern sailing ship need in the way of carrying passenger safely; I was struck by the very different ways in which the ships and rigs were handled by the sailors that sailed 'tall ships' during their 'hayday' as compared to now.

Look up Roger Long in the index of the book.

>

[Gary Bergman]

This book has been out a while; what makes it a 'new book'?...It's a mandatory read for those who sail with us each summer....

[StevenBauer]

Gary, this thread was started in January 2003.



Steven