What to bed thru hull fittings with?

[GROOVY]

What is the most reliable caulk to use for sealing thru hull hardware?

[TomRobb]

Dolphinite is popular.

[Bob Cleek]

Dolphinite, definitely. While you are at it, be SURE you properly wrap cotton caulking yarn around the shaft under the lip. Bedding compound alone will not a watertight seal make! Common mistake. Happens all the time.

[RGM]

What steps are you taking on the inboard side of your thru hull installation(s)? In conjunction with Cleek's suggestion of the Dolfinite and candle wicking or cotton calking (outboard) are you using backing blocks (shaped to your hull and bedded) to tighten a flange nut or similar fitting against?

[Mr. Know It All]

Groovy.......Can't help with this Question but I wondered if that manifold Jim sold ya fit? How's the Chris Craft coming along? Hope to see some pic's of her in the water soon.
peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[GROOVY]

Kevin, am happy to report the manifold fit fine and after some cleaning and a little resurfacing looks gooooood! I spent some time turning engine over with the 6V battery and hand crank, I decided to put 12V to starter because it was wearing me out. The dang thing started right up! and ran .... dont know if I was more scared or happy.... happy I think
RGM I am using backing blocks. I have all blocks and fittings dry-fitted, there is some trace of a caulk material on the fittings and the one backing block that I found. (somebody else took this boat apart hauled to shop in 3 pickup trucks and 1 trailer, have bonus pieces of a Century boat mixed in the pile of boat parts)
This dolphinite stuff is bedding compound?

[ 04-17-2002, 01:33 AM: Message edited by: GROOVY ]

[Mr. Know It All]

Groovy......Boat restoration has a way of making you feel like Dr. Frankenstine. "It's ALIVE!!!" Nothing like workin on the boat,in the garage/boatshop during a lightning storm. Glad to hear your plan is coming together.I can't imagin having so many leftover parts mixed in. I'm confused enough. Did you find some Dolphinite?
peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[GROOVY]

It seems that West Marine not only has no dolphinite in stock but has none in wharehouse.
I am wondering if there is something else to use,
I have some 5200 left from the reconstruction and wonder if it could be used?

[Mr. Know It All]

GROOVY.......Tom Koroknay might have some Dolphinite or know where to get it. He uses it to bed wood windshields to Lyman boat decks during the restoration process. He might be able to UPS you some. His contact info is on his website here----> http://lymanboat.com/
Peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[Mr. Know It All]

Use 5200 only if you don't want it to ever come apart. 4200 might be better or Pettit makes a bedding compound if you can't find Dolphinite. (I hear it's getting hard to find)
peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[Allen Foote]

DO NOT USE 5200! Bed it in BoatLife. Using a "liberal" amount, smear it on the underside of the flange and 1/2 up the tube. Only use the "cotton trick" on the heads of strut bolts. Dolphinite is a bedding compound for wood. Not for underwater metal fittings such as bronze. It will not provide the "leak proof reassurance" your looking for.

[ 04-23-2002, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[Scott Rosen]

I wouldn't use Dolphite or anyother linseed oil bedding for that application. I'd go with one of the waterproof polysulfide or polyurathane goops in a tube. The only thing wrong with 5200 is that it's permanent and your through hull isn't. You need to consider that one day in the distant future you or your heirs will need to replace the through hull.

I'd use 3M 101 polysulfide or any of the less tenacious Sikaflex products. I've never used Boatlife for that purpose, but it should work as it's a polysulfide.

[GROOVY]

Just incase I have confused anybody... what I want to seal is all the fittings (bronze) that pass throught the hull (plywood). As well as wherever a bronze carrige bolt passes through to support cutlass, rudder box and lift ring bracket.
Thanks for your input I need and want to learn how to do this right.
Also I guess the cotten string is to be wrapped around the shank ahead of the square carrige bolt end?
Oh and about the cutlass I found what looked like an rubber (old innertube?) gasket, is there supposed to be a gasket there or was this a repair by the dreaded former owner/disassembler?

[Thaddeus J. Van Gilder]

OK, lier!!!!!!

I work at west Marine part time, (for the discount, I swear), and I just bought a can of Dolphinite last week!

The have plenty of quarts!!!!

The problem is, most West Marine guys:
1) have never worked on a boat in their life, and
2) have no idea what goes on a wooden boat, and
3) have no idea what Dolphinite natural bedding compound is!!!!!!!!!!

[ 04-24-2002, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Thaddeus J. Van Gilder ]

[Mr. Know It All]

After reading this---> http://www.bosunsupplies.com/Sealants.cfm
Scott & Allen's advise appears to be the best long term solution.
peace---> Kevin in Ohio

[RGM]

Recently, while a 3M tech rep. was visiting our shipyard he told us that 3M was going to discontinue or modify production of their 101 product. He indicated that the "replacement" would have different chemistry and a different product designation (number). Apparently there have been alot of problems/failures with it. Of course he wouldn't elaborate. I was suprised, for goop in a tube I kind of preferred it to other stuff out there. Don't be suprised if you see some good sales on it taking place, or perhaps they will quietly remove it from the shelves.

[Memphis Mike]

5200 is great as long as it is used as a sealer
and not a glue. You can cut a seam in it with
your pocket knife and remove the fitting
and sand the rest off easily. Anything that may need to be removed later should never be
attached permanently anyhow. Just my opinion.

[ 04-24-2002, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

[Memphis Mike]

"Just incase I have confused anybody... what I want to seal is all the fittings (bronze) that pass throught the hull (plywood). As well as wherever a bronze carrige bolt passes through to support cutlass, rudder box and lift ring bracket.
Thanks for your input I need and want to learn how to do this right."

Use the 5200 Groovy. You won't be disappointed.

[Mr. Know It All]

Source of Dolphinite bedding compound?----> http://www.boatbldr.com./catalog/bedding.html
It's out there somewhere.
peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[Allen Foote]

3M corporation continues to change the chemical make up of thier products without removing them from the shelves or offering "New" & "Improved" models. I know this from personal experience of working as a subcontractor of 3M to "right a wrong". Sometimes those changes are for the worse. DO NOT USE 5200!! Not only DO NOT USE IT BUT beware of anyone whom would suggest it! The cotton wrap around the head of a STRUTT bolt is becuase the strutt bolt has a conical shaft that fits the countersink of the strutt fiting...bronze on bronze.....the cotton takes up any mis fitting between the 2.

[N. Scheuer]

I was interested in Scott Rosen's recommendation on Sikaflex. In my experience I've always considered Sikaflex Polyurethane products to be the ONLY readily available adhesive sealants comparable to 3M 5200.

I generally use 5200 to bed fittinmgs on my fiberglass boat, and never find it too difficult to remove those fittings.

Moby Nick

[N. Scheuer]

Mr. Foote:

I would be seriously interested in WHY you not only counsel against using 3M 5200, but suggest being "suspicious of anyone" recommending 5200.

Especially in light of the fact that you DO recommend Boatlife Caulk, which I believe is a Polysulfide (at least it was some years ago when I last looked) and Polyurethanes (like 52000 are generally superior to Polysulfides by a wide margin.

I know EXACTLY why I like and use 5200. I do not feel that anyone need be "suspicious" of me.

If you want to reply off-line, my e-mail is mobynick@juno.com

Moby Nick

[Allen Foote]

Well Moby, I have no problems with replying here. I consider 5200 to be part of the amateur-cure-all. Instead of learning proper wood working techniques, 5200 allows one to "get it close then glue". 5200 is pemanant. Read my finger tips....P-E-R-M-A-N-A-N-T!!! Wooden boats are repairable and can out last the builders simply because they can be disassembled and repaired. Permanant glues such as 5200 take away that asset and thus the life of a boat. 5200 has its place and usages.....but not here and not for the bedding of thru-hulls on wooden boats. Anyone that claims 5200 is removable...has not had the wonderful experience of trying to remove any WOOD "ADHERED" with it. Anyother 3M products you'd like to discuss?

[ 04-26-2002, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Allen Foote ]

[N. Scheuer]

One reason I like 5200 so much is that I have used a lot of it to bed a lot of things, and a lot of those things were WOOD. Admitedly, the boats were nearly all fiberglass (I was using Boatlife back in my wooden Snipe days) with an odd aluminum ons thrown in.

Here is a little-known tid-bit you and the other sturctural experts can mull over; the hull/deck joint on my earlier Dovekie, and now my present Shearwater yawl, is a rolled flange stuck together with nothing but 3M 5200. The 5200 is augmented later in the assembly process with thin band of fiberglass and brushed-on gel coat spanning the joint around the interior. This joint is of course intended to be both permanent, and leak-free. These boats have been known to suffer extreem side inpacts without suffering leaks at the hull-deck joint. There are no metal fasteners of any kind in the hull/deck joint.

Y'awl can decry this assembly as "atrocious" if you care to, but my experience has been decidedly positive.

The metal fittings I've bedded in 3M 5200 would certainly not be considered "permanent" after I easily removed them; usually with the aid of a sharp mortise chisel (no, not my woodworking set). The wooden fittings I've removed with the same mortise chisel (or sometimes just a sideways whack with a hammer) probably did, for the most part, show some damage. But what-the-HEY, the reason I was probably removing them was because THEY HAD OUTIVED THEIR USEFULNESS TO ME.

I get a little worked up by the continual caution perpetrated by some that 3M 5200 is "too permanent" to be satisfactory on boats. I've been using 3M 5200 since back when the smallest container one could buy was a caulk-gun tube and one often had to go to a wholesaler to obtain it. Now that 5200 is available lots of places in toothpast-sized squeeze tubes, my boatlife (couldn't resist that pun) is a lot simpler. I nearly always have a virgin tube of 5200 in my shop, right next to the open tube I used the last time I needed some.

I would thaink that people who build wodden boats very likely develope skills much more involved than those needed to merely remove something bedded in 5200.

Moby Nick

[Art Read]

Yup... 5200 is good stuff, no doubt. I think the percieved prejudice against it in wooden boat "maintainence", is that there OTHER, less agressive but equally effective products out there that WILL come apart again someday without undue exertion and or damage if need be. You might be happy to trash whatever fitting you're removing once it's finally off, but do you want to trash the deck or hull planking it tries to take up with it? Both Sika and 3-M make competing products for both purposes. For permanant adheasion, 5200 or Sika's 292(?) I think 3-M has the rep for the "best" solution there. For bedding with "somewhat adheasive" properties. 3-M's 4100 or Sika's 291. Sika seems to get the nod there. That would be my suggestion for hardware or thru-hull applications. (Unless, heaven forbid, you're installing those "plastic" through hulls. Then you'll need a silicon product. Just don't count on paint ever holding again anywhere that the silicon ever touched...) If adheasion isn't an issue at all, and frequent removal or limited exposure seems likely, Dolphinite would be my choice, especially in wooden construction where nice, clean looking joints are a priority. NOBODY enjoys cleaning up after getting "goop-in-tube" anywhere you don't want it. Dolphinite is MUCH easier to clean up both during and after use. I've used all three, (but NO silicon!) during my project. They all have their places. I highly recomend reading and saving that link to the "Bos'un's Locker" Kevin posted above. All the information in one place that took me many long, confusing phone calls with tech support people to decipher...

[Allen Foote]

Moby...that WAS a bad pun!

[Scott Rosen]

There is a bedding that no one has mentioned. White lead paste. You can get it by the pound from Kirby's. I've used it in a number of applications and it's great stuff. It has the advantage of being anti-fungal, so it protects from rot, and it is galvanically compatible with bronze. It's great for bungs, above and below the waterline. It's especially good as a lubricant for bronze wood screws, instead of wax or soap. It has better adhesion than Dolphinite and dries to a harder, tougher consistency.

Tasty Too!

The one time I used 5200 was for bedding the centerboard trunk and keel on my Nutshell, installations that I want to be permanent. I think that was the right stuff to use for a dry-sailed boat.

[SchoonerSaraB]

What are we arguing over here? Wooden boats in general were designed to perform a specific task. When you reach a point of rebuilding you have exceeded the original lifespan of something that was intended to last a finite amount of time. Ask Alden when he expected Malabar X to be rebuilt, he would have looked at you as if you had 2 heads. So I would ask you, whatever floats your boat, literally.

[Art Read]

Interesting point... But would Alden have suggested throwing the boat away just because the masts needed stripping and re-varnishing? Or that beautiful butterfly skylight hatch or steering box? Be nice if the hardware and fittings weren't "permanantly" fixed with "miracle goop" when it came time to do that job. I also suspect he'd understand wanting to be able to perhaps replace a smashed up bulwark or caprail after a collision, or maybe re-build the sampson post or stem assembly after a misjudged landing had punched the bowsprit back six inches. I like the analogy somebody else used here recently... Just because you need three new tires and a left rear fender on your clasic, old "roadster" doesn't mean you might as well send it to the junkyard...

[ 04-27-2002, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Art Read ]

[SchoonerSaraB]

Art, didn't mean it to sound that way. Though alot of Aldens boats were built to accomplish a specific task with no thought to longevity.I cut my sailing eye teeth on a 1926 Alden schooner 60' on deck owned by my father-in-law. It was built by morse of pine on sawn oak frames, all galvanized fastened and decked in pine,concrete poured in the blige for ballast. Tradewind was built specifically for the 1926 Bermuda race I believe she finished 5th. I meant to say I feel whatever someone does to keep a boat sailing(and isn't that what they were intended to do?)who am I to argue? I've seen more boats fall by the way side do to lack of intent than misguided intent.

[Art Read]

I completely agree, Gregg. Amazing how those old schooner yachts have held up considering. I, too, grew up sailing a boat similar to the one you describe. A Hand schooner built by Hodgden Bros. in '25. I doubt she was intended to last more than twenty years or so... Galvanised fastenings, pine decks, etc. I suspect the only reason she's still here is that the war interfered and the government used her for the Coast Guard's "Corsair" fleet. Sold as "surplus" afterwards, she wound up in the tourist trade and so was kept sailing long after most of her contempories were retired as "obsolete"...

My only concern with folks doing "whatever they can" just to keep their old boats afloat is that so often a misguided "fix" will actually do more harm than good. We've all seen those sad, old Cris Crafts rotting away in the corner of the yard that somebody tried to "keep going" with a layer of fiberglass slapped on the bottom. I recently paid 5 bucks at a swap meet for the entire bronze rudder, post and stuffing box assembly from one that had just been chainsawed apart for it's parts. And we've had quite a few posts here from folks wondering what to do with all the gaping seams on their new "project" that somebody else had slathered with 5200, bondo or some other, "mystery" filler. A lot of boats would have been much better off had their past owners simply left them alone.

That's why I like this place so much. If somebody is lucky enough to have discovered this resource before wading into a big project with too little information, he at least might avoid some needless re-inventing of the wheel or the most common blunders that beginers all seem to make. Sure, he's gonna get seven or eight different, "right" answers, and lots of debate, but a lot of good informations gets put out there, too. If all "Groovy", (or any, other reader) gets out of this thread is to stay away from hardware store clear silicon "caulk" on those thru-hulls, he'll be ahead of the game...

[patriot]

in response to sikaflex, I use 252 instead of 3m 5200, had fantastic results always and it costs less, I just don't like stocking it in the shop with its nine month shelf life.

[Memphis Mike]

Everyone beware. I'm gonna state again that
5200 is a good sealer for through hull
fittings on wooden boats as long as it is used as a sealer. I've removed hull fittings before and it is not difficult.

[SchoonerSaraB]

Art glaqd to see were on the same page. I bed all my thru-hulls with cotton and interlux bedding compound. SaraB. is a Tancook schooner, all galv. fastened pine on oak framed 8" on center witrh boat nails. The deck will be refastened this season and caulked with cotton and pitch. And when the time comes laminated with wood veneer because to remove all that iron is well beyond my means or anyone who would be interested. Then sailed around the world, this is my humble plan, life is short you have to enjoy every day. Had all 4 lowers up in a 40 knot gale and she ghosts along with a fisherman set. Wouldn't trade her for anything. A Malabar II????????? maybe

[sean cremin]

Boat life seems to work pretty good on old wooden sailboats thru hull fittins