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Thread: Website Development - The Next Level

  1. #1
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    I think there are some people around here who have gone deeper into website development than I have so I'm hoping I can get some input.

    I know HTML very well and I'm pretty decent at JavaScript. I'm also reasonably decent at SQL Server (and very experienced with Access/VBA). Now what I'd like to do is bring these together and be able to build websites that interact with SQL Server databases. What I'm trying to figure out is of the many ways of doing this, which one makes the most sense as a place to jump in.

    One friend recommended ASP.NET, but that seems like a big leap, and also, he recommended getting Visual Studio to use as the development platform, which is a lot of money.

    Another friend recommended PHP, which seems more managable, but I'm not the clear about what it can and can't do. He also suggested that I might want to take a look at Macromedia ColdFusion, but I've had a hard time getting a clear picture of what ColdFusion does.

    Any suggestions? When I search on the web there's lots about the details of all of these technologies but not much that I can find about the big picture and how to choose which approach will work the best for a given situation.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    I've come from the world of VB myself and jumped into .Net. But I figured that if I was to learn a new system, I may as well do it properly, so I chose C# instead of VB .Net. It took me about two weeks of fiddling before I started being productive If you have any decent experience with Java, you should find the transition to C# pretty smooth, since there really are more similarities than not. In many ways, I guess C# is like Java on steroids since the .Net framework gives you so many more classes, functions and properties to work with. Overall, I find that .Net/C# is the most productive coding environment I've used so far.

    I've mostly done Win apps, and don't have a lot of asp experience, though. But there are a lot of getting started guides included in the documentation, besides the plethora of books, web sites etc. I usually just use these guides to get a grasp of the basic concepts, and then start working with my own ideas. I'm way too impatient to follow a step-by-step guide, and I find that I learn faster when working with my own ideas.

    Sure, it costs though. I'm trying to become self employed, so I made do with the 2003 beta first, and then an evaluation version until I finally was able to make an agreement to get a legal version. For an employer, though, I believe that focusing new development efforts on .Net is a very good idea prouctivity wise. There are free IDEs out there, though, that are pretty good. Check out http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/ . The latest version of the .Net framework is freely available from MS.

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    Bruce; I can tell you a lot about this, but it would help to know your objective(s). It would be helpful to know if you're married to SQL Server and Microsoft technologies in general.

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    Originally posted by Meerkat:
    It would be helpful to know if you're married to SQL Server and Microsoft technologies in general.
    Can you do that in Rhode Island?

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    Hey did they ever change the "with parental consent" marriage age from 12 years in LA? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

    "I can hardly wait for my wife to reach puberty!"

  6. #6
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    IF there's one thing meerkat knows about ... it's this subject.

    He can help you.

    I don't know much about the development side- I'm just a dumb marketing guy ... but, I have implemented a few sites that link to backend SQL 'stuff' for sales people, college enrollments/programs, etc.

    Mostly in the insurance arena ... dealing with with internal microsites designed as sales management tools for sales folks with regard to lead-generation from direct mail, etc ... real-time processing of leads and tracking and distribution.

    Good luck ...

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the endorsement Brad.

    BTW, how come you never wrote back to me?

  8. #8
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    I suppose it really depends on what pre-existing database your client is using as to what you use. I'm sure that Meer has done more implementation, but it's a big question, and you shouldn't go at it lightly. Especially if you are doing work with smaller companies and light infrastructures...

    Anyway, I have some experience with PHP and MySQL. PHP is pretty simple to learn and works well as glue to a front end.

    I believe that ColdFusion is pretty advanced, but requires an expensive back end. This may have changed since I took a look.

    As for other solutions I don't know.

    As the head of marketing for a small company I can tell you that this is a very good field to go into. Even small companies are finding that a static site can have limitations. Our company wants most of our site to continue to be static for very easy graphical/html updates and changes, but we are harvesting much more information from our users.

    Generally with this type of web project you need to start out with a good database (obviously). This will probably take a bunch of work with the client to figure out what there needs are, so learn your stuff there before you talk about putting it on the web.

    Noah

    (And if anyone knows a good database builder/integrator please let me know, I'm looking...)

  9. #9
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    !!! What are you looking for Noah? [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]smile.gif[/img] !!!!

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    Originally posted by Meerkat:
    Bruce; I can tell you a lot about this, but it would help to know your objective(s). It would be helpful to know if you're married to SQL Server and Microsoft technologies in general.
    Let's see, as far as objectives go...at this point I'm not looking to make this my career so for the time being I don't want to invest months in learning something high-end and I don't want to spend $1000 on software. What I would like to do is, say, for the website I maintain for a non-profit be able to set up a system where people could submit wildlife sightings and have them show up on a list on the site or take a survey on the site and have the results stored for us to access. Another thing I would like to be able to do is set up a simple e-commerce site that just uses Paypal or something similar for the payment side so that I don't get into all the issues around encryption and protecting credit card numbers. I'm also just kind of curious. Having worked with JavaScript and SQL Server it seems like I must be 90% of the way to being able to do a lot more with websites than I can now.

    As to technologies, I'm not necessarily wedded to Micorsoft products BUT I do know SQL Server so that seems like a logical back-end to start with. Also, the web hosting company that I'm currently working with provides a MySQL database as part of the hosting package. At this point, for "assembling" websites I am using Dreamweaver. My computer is running Windows and it's in good shape, so I'm not going to be changing to Linux or Mac any time soon.

    As I think about it I'm not even that clear about, to take a common example, how a "shopping cart" of goods is usually or best tracked -- by cookies, sessionID's via a database, or variables saved in a header (if the site uses frames). The books I've seen all seems to break down into one of two catagories: "here's how to do a simple HTML website" or "here's how to write CGI scripts (or Perl, or .Net or...) for your website." What it feels like I need is something that talks about "here's what Perl, CGI, JavaScript, etc. can do for you and here's why you might use one in one situation and another in a different situation..."

    Thanks!

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by Noah:
    Generally with this type of web project you need to start out with a good database (obviously). This will probably take a bunch of work with the client to figure out what there needs are, so learn your stuff there before you talk about putting it on the web.
    That's good to hear because this is one aspect of this scene where I do have a solid background. I make my living right now working on databases so I can do a pretty good job of designing a solid database...

  12. #12
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    Ok, that helps some. Let me give you the big picture and then we can start drilling down.

    Firstly about webservers. There are two: Apache, and all the rest. Apache and it's derivatives continue to dominate the webserver market on both Windows and other platforms.

    There are two forms of web page scripting: server side and client side. Server side scripting is generally used for such things like database access, dynamic html creation etc. Client side scripting is used to add features like animation, pull down menues and other "dynamic" presentation features.

    Much to Microsoft's chagrin, about 80% of all client side scripting is done with Javascript, even at die-hard shops that use ASP and Internet Information Server (IIS), Microsoft's terminally buggy webserver. Neither ActiveX or Java have caught on to the same degree because of security issues (ActiveX) and download size (both of them).

    On the server side, the dominant scripting language is Perl, with php probably the second most used. Which ever of the many languages used on the server side, the way they are invoked is most often through a protocol called the Common Gateway Interface or CGI. CGI is slow, so there are other protocols used, including FCGI (Fast CGI), as well as modules that are plugged into the webserver to directly process scripts written in a particular language. Examples for Apache include mod_perl, mod_python, mod_php, mod_ruby, mod_tcl and others. Another protocol, rarely used outside of ASP and Netscape servers any more, is "Server side includes". With this technique, programs are accessed via calls embedded within an html page and the server checks each page before sending it to see if there is any server side processing that needs to be done.

    Out in back, aside from the big guys like Oracle, DB2 and SQL Server, probably the most used (total number of sites) is mySQL. It ranges from free to cheap, depending on how you use it, and it provides most of the features that are needed for most sites. Sqlite is another, totally free, db package that's gaining ground too.

    Surrounding these three aspects (client-side, server-side and back end) and trying to make things simple and isolate the web developer from a lot of gritty details are so called application frameworks. Cold Fusion is just oen example of the very MANY that are out there. Pick Perl, Python or php and you're bound to find a half dozen to a dozen app frameworks available for them. Javascript will still play it's part on the client side of things whatever you choose.

    Ahem... for a variety of personal (aesthetic) and technical reasons, I tend to prefer an Apache, mySQL or Sqlite and Python based approach. Being a programmer, I also tend to lean more towards programs that create html than html that calls programs. Of course, this being the real world, I can make my way in a few languages and using either program oriented or page oriented approaches. [img]smile.gif[/img]

  13. #13
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    It all depends on what you want.

    I used to keep a web site as a database. I simply ran a Database script to produce the wab pages each week.

  14. #14
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    Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
    …at this point I'm not looking to make this my career so for the time being I don't want to invest months in learning something high-end and I don't want to spend $1000 on software. What I would like to do is, say, for the website I maintain for a non-profit be able to set up a system where people could submit wildlife sightings and have them show up on a list on the site or take a survey on the site and have the results stored for us to access. Another thing I would like to be able to do is set up a simple e-commerce site that just uses Paypal or something similar for the payment side so that I don't get into all the issues around encryption and protecting credit card numbers. I'm also just kind of curious. Having worked with JavaScript and SQL Server it seems like I must be 90% of the way to being able to do a lot more with websites than I can now.
    Well…

    From your stated objectives, I'd have to recommend taking a look at blog/cms software like WordPress, for at least part of your solution. Wordpress uses MySQL as a backend and composes the pages dynamically. There'll be plenty of work to do creating the templates and CSS you need to make it seamless.

    The best software is software you don't have to write. And if you can solve 90% of your problem with pre-written stuff, you're way ahead of the game.

    WRT to the other parts of your solution (eCommerce, etc.), and considering the non-profit that appears to be the beneficiary here, my recommendation would be an *nix/Apache/PHP/Perl/MySQL solution. From the vantage point of a non-profit, the buy-in/maintenance costs (free) are hard to beat.

    One thing with using SQL Server as your database is licensing costs. While SQL Server is lower cost than many other relational database's the licensing costs will still be significant. The usual method for purchasing a relational database consist of the seller asking how much money you have, taking it all, and then picking you up by your ankles and shaking you to see how much change falls out of your pockets.

    Consider the maintenance factor as well: SQL Server is lower maintenance than many RDBs, but it is far from being maintenance-free. And an RDB that isn't regularly maintained and backed-up is an RDB that is warranted to [eventually] crash and take your data with it.

    Myself, I wouldn't sweat the database too much: as long as you use a standard interface (like ODBC) and make a point of maintaining (insofar as possible) ANSI/ISO compliance for your DDL and SQL, from the standpoint of your application, it shouldn't make much difference.

  15. #15
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    If you are already familier with MS SQL server I would recommend you go with developing ASP pages (server side scripts) to access your data. Pretty simply and straightforward.

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    Many thanks everyone for your thoughtful and detailed responses. I think I'm getting a clearer picture of how all this fits together.

    First to clarify one point -- I am keenly aware of how expensive SQL Server is -- I've been involved with purchasing a number of licenses for it over the years for work. The mistake I may have made in thinking about the web side of things is assuming that MySQL is basically a scaled down parallel to SQL server. Is it, or is it really a rather different beast? Is it a relational database? How does one interface with it from a development perspective?

    I have worked a bit with JavaScript code that sends calls back to the server (for online training software) and it does seem to me that separating this sort of processing from the vagaries of different web browsers and putting it on the server could be a very good thing!

    If for no other reason than cost, it is sounding to me like the best place for me to start would be with Perl, PHP, or something similar as the intermediary and MySQL as the back end. Our web hosting company supports CGI, Perl, PHP, SSI, and C/C++ so I've got plenty of options in that area! Are there big reasons why I should choose one over the other? I'm leaning towards PHP since that's what I seem to come across the most.

    Also, I'm still a little confused about the relationship between CGI and PHP/Perl/Python. If I'm creating PHP code to create pages do I also need to create separate CGI code as part of the overall system? I read on the WordPress site that it ideally uses mod_rewrite as part of it's system, so that presumably would bypass CGI, assuming my web hosting company has mod_rewrite installed on the server, which I'm guessing they do because they have WordPress available for download. I am inclined towards the approach of learning to write the code before I lean too much on a tool that creates code automatically. That way I've got a better understanding of what the tool is doing and how to fix something that isn't working.

    In fact, my web hosting company has all sorts of stuff available for adding to one's site and I guess that's part of what's throwing me...I've spent most of my paid time working with Microsoft products, which come across as huge software applications that do many different things under one roof. The same could be said of the Adobe realm, where I've also spent some time. These software packages can have a steep learning curve but with a book in hand I can usually learn what I need to know. The web world on the other hand appears to be much more of a free-for-all with thousands of small tools, languages, and software apps that work together to a greater or lesser degree but that are not big integrated packages where you get one book as your guide. In many ways this sort of free-for-all seems like a very good thing but it does make things quite a bit more confusing when you don't know enough about what they all do to figure out which ones matter for what you are doing!

  17. #17
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    CGI and SSI are different ways of accessing scripts. One configures the webserver to recognize that files that end with a specific extension, like .php, .pl etc, are to be processed by a particular processor (interpreter). there's an alternate way to do this called (I'm not kidding) the "shebang line" which is where the first line of a script starts with #! (shebang) and then the filesystem path to the right interpreter. For example a perl scrip would start with #!/usr/bin/perl (or something quite close to that). Has basically the same effect with the advantage that you don't have to modify the webserver's config file. You'll have to work with your ISP to sort this out - it's generally pretty standard.

    Language preference is, as they say in the business, a matter of religion. Here's my take:

    * Perl - powerful, but very arcane. Often people will rewrite something rather than try to figure out what they wrote when a change is needed. Has some issues with respect to creating well organized (partitioned) code. Perl has been described as the C standard library with legs that never met a keyboard key it didn't like. Very quirky.

    * php - popular, grew, with not a lot of planning, from a user's dislike of Perl. Much easier to maintain than Perl. Easy to use, but not particularly powerful/expressive.

    * python - powerful, expressive, supurb language features. Easy to code and maintain, many excellent web application frameworks, huge contributed library, outstanding newsgroup based support (any resemblence to bias here is strictly a coincidence ). May I ernestly and humbly suggest that you really take a long hard look at python. You're apt to fall in love with what is probably the most powerful yet easy language around!

    mySQL would be free for a non-profit organization to use. It does most of what SQL92 specifies (and it's a compliant subset), but you'll note the lack of stored procedures, constraints and triggers (in development version now, I believe), plus foreign key support is (was?) weak. It will pay to build a 2 level access package around the database access: lower level is one of several db-independent ODBC-like db access packages (for mySQL, perl and python have them, not so sure about php); upper layer is where you'll want to code the business logic/db sanity stuff that uses the lower level. Of course, you can't prevent people from getting around it like you can with stored procedures, but it's better than ad-hoc. If you want the moral equivelent of SQL Server, you should look at Postgres, which allows stored procedures written in a variety of scripting and compiled languages. It's a big mothah though.

    You can build a home webserver and play with all of this on either Windows or Linux and friends (Postgres on Windows _might_ be problematical, but I know of at least one Window binary distribution).

    [ 03-18-2004, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:

    The web world on the other hand appears to be much more of a free-for-all with thousands of small tools, languages, and software apps that work together to a greater or lesser degree but that are not big integrated packages where you get one book as your guide. In many ways this sort of free-for-all seems like a very good thing but it does make things quite a bit more confusing when you don't know enough about what they all do to figure out which ones matter for what you are doing!
    I know I'll probably be flamed by Meerkat for this, but what you're saying here is probably one of the main reasons that MS, and the other large develpment tool vendors for that matter, are still so popular in the professional market. A free tool isn't so cheap when your developers spend a lot of time assmbling all these different tools, and tweaking them to make it all work together. Sure, it's probably simple once you've gone the path, but it's often expensive in man-hours.

    For a project I'm anticipating, I've looked into various tools for embedded development, (i.e. for a small computer that is usually built into a product such as a kiosk application or handheld computer.) My choices are down to either Embedded Linux or Windows CE Embedded. Now, Linux is free, which should be a good thing since I don't have to pay any licensing fees for each delivered unit, while Win CE will cost me approx. $3 per unit.

    However, CE comes bundled with a lot of nifty utilities, such as codecs, web browser, sync tools etc. that are not included in Embedded Linux, and may have to be purchased separately. Sure, I may probably spend some time on the net and find what I need for free, but it is a fact that companies often choose to pay for these components instead of using free components of dubious quality. E.g., a commercial encryption component for Linux may cost me $20/unit, while it's included in CE. In this case, Linux clearly is not so cheap anymore; I'm paying $17 more in licensing costs per distributed unit. With Linux, I also anticipate that I have to spend a significant amount of time on the net looking for appropriate components that are already included in Win CE. This is spent time that will affect my time-to-market, and thus the bottom line.

    Also, if I don't want to have to spend even more time on the net assembling a toolbox of various freebies, I'll have to buy a development suite from a reputable vendor. According to a study titled "Total Cost of Development", the AVERAGE upfront tool cost for Embedded Linux is $3,899, and the AVERAGE annual maintenance fee/seat is $17,222. In addition, annual maintenance costs for Linux tools may add another whooping $3000 per seat, or more. Compare that to MS Visual Studio .Net at $1000/seat, no maintenance costs and no subscription costs, and the initially free Linux is starting to loose ground pretty fast.

    It's also pretty significant that, in a comparative study, the average development man months for Embedded Linux projects were 203 months, while Win CE projects came in at a little more than 68 months. This makes a Linux project, on average, 300% more expensive than Win CE in developer man hours costs.

    You can find the study comparing Embedded Linux to Win CE at http://www.embeddedforecast.com/ . Sure, the study was commisioned by MS, but the author is pretty clear and open about that. But really, the report only confirmed the suspicions I already had about the actual develpment costs associated with Linux, in a business scenario where time is money. Tool costs are often insignificant compared to the cost of labor.

    By now, I sit back and realize that I'm pretty far gone from Bruce's question (again). Sorry about all that. It all comes down to how much you value your time, I guess. If you have the funds, buying a set of tools from a reputable vendor will give you a better development environment, a collection of all the tools you need that are tested to work together, and that are (presumably) well documented. Going for open source and freebies will usually imply a significant investment of your own time to find the information, assemble the tools, and make it all work together.

    BTW, have you looked into MSDE? It's a free SQL Server "light", downloadable from Microsoft, that contains most of the functionality of MS Sql Server, but is limited to a storage capacity of 2GB. If you don't anticipate your DB reaching this size, this could be a good alternative since it has all the functionality of stored procedures, triggers, user defined functions etc. No admin tools included, though, but you can administer it from MS Access or similar. You'll find the latest version of MSDE at http://msdn.microsoft.com/data/downl...s/default.aspx

    Edited to clarify: The high avg maintenance fee for Linux seems to be a little misleading, since the pricing schemes of the different vendors vary wildly. The 1st year costs for commercial Linux development tools, (purchase + 1 year subscription/maintenance,) seem to vary from $3,000 up to $25,000.

    [ 03-18-2004, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Oyvind Snibsoer ]

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    MS is notorious for commissioning "fair and unbiased" reports like that. Generally, they're neither. Assuming, not unreasonably, some previous experience with the subject area and a reasonably fast internet connection, I think someone could download, install and configure Python, mysql-python, Apache, mod_python and mySQL in 4-6 hours tops.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
    The mistake I may have made in thinking about the web side of things is assuming that MySQL is basically a scaled down parallel to SQL server. Is it, or is it really a rather different beast? Is it a relational database? How does one interface with it from a development perspective?
    It's a full blown RDBMS. It doesn't necessarily have all the bells and whistles that SQL Server, DB2 or Oracle have, but it's quite complete. It's optimized more for read access than update access, but for most real-world systems, that will be the case.

    Dealing with it from a development perspective, and from the POV of writing ASP or similar is that you'll probably use thier ODBC Drivers.

    There are also lower-level APIs available with bindings for many languages: C, C++, Eiffel, Java, Perl, PHP, Python, Ruby, and Tcl.

    With Perl, you'll want to be using the standard Perl database interface package (DBI) instead of ODBC, which has drivers for MySQL available.

    You can learn more about MySQL at their web site: http://www.mysql.com/. There's also swank GUI administration/development tools available (mostly GPL'd).

    The one thing MySQL lacks right now is stored procedures, but they're already available in the developer drops for the next big release, v5.0.

    I have worked a bit with JavaScript code that sends calls back to the server (for online training software) and it does seem to me that separating this sort of processing from the vagaries of different web browsers and putting it on the server could be a very good thing!
    I hear you my brother!

    If for no other reason than cost, it is sounding to me like the best place for me to start would be with Perl, PHP, or something similar as the intermediary and MySQL as the back end. Our web hosting company supports CGI, Perl, PHP, SSI, and C/C++ so I've got plenty of options in that area! Are there big reasons why I should choose one over the other? I'm leaning towards PHP since that's what I seem to come across the most.
    PHP is basically a non-MS form of ASP. Perl is probably going to be more CGI (the one exception is that if you're hosted on Windows/IIS, you can install Perl so it's a ASP scripting language. C/C++ or other compiled code is almost certainly going to be CGI.

    The one thing Perl offers is expressive power. You can abstract a lower of processing into just a few lines of code. The downside of that is that the syntax can be, um, difficult to grok. And the learning curve can be steep-ish because the language is, be design, non-orthogonal (the operative motto being, in Larry Wall's words: "there's more than one way to do it!").

    Also, I'm still a little confused about the relationship between CGI and PHP/Perl/Python. If I'm creating PHP code to create pages do I also need to create separate CGI code as part of the overall system?
    No. PHP is the same basic concept as an ASP in the Windows world.

    [qb]In fact, my web hosting company has all sorts of stuff available for adding to one's site and I guess that's part of what's throwing me...
    Ahh, yes, the old "What tools do I need for the job…"

    The one tool I'd recommend is getting a good code editor and learning to craft your ASP/PHP/whatever code by hand, rather than relying on software packages that hide the code from you.

    I'm partial to Codewright (which is expensive, but a very good editor), but there are also excellent free editors out there: vi, emacs, vim, etc. (And I'm not even going to walk into the trap of recommending one over the other. One's choice of editor is highly personal. The single most important feature that I'd recommend is a good search and replace facility with support for real regular expressions (and preferably as powerful as perl's REs). Also the ability to global search/replaces across an entire directory tree (or the entire disk). 3 kinds of mark/cut/copy/paste as well: line marking, Unix/Windows-style and columnar (rectangular).

    Some people find Eclipse a really useful development environment (it's hard to beat the price).

    But learning to craft the code properly by hand helps you really understand its structure.

  21. #21
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    Thanks all! Things are fitting together much better for me now.

    I just realized that I have a code editor on my work computer -- Visual SlickEdit. I have mostly been using it for analyzing EDI files (very, very boring!) so I'd just about forgotten that it is also a code editor. So, I may be able to play around a bit with that.

    I'll almost certainly stick with MySQL for now. I don't see a huge need for stored procedures and my web hosting company provides MySQL.

    Python sounds like it's worth looking into. It's hard to argue with "powerful, expressive, supurb language features. Easy to code and maintain..."

    Thanks!

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    Top notch free, open source editor (replaced my use of Codewright, in spite of lacking a few features which I found in other utilities) is SciTE Very nice syntax highlighting editor, with "parsers" for 20+ different programming languages, including all discussed in this thread (even SQL).

    Those ODBC drivers are for allowing mySQL to be a data source for MS languages that use that paradigm. As Nicholas alluded to, third party scripting languages usually have their own language-specific standard db-independent interface modules.

    It's likely that your web hosting company is providing Apache, not IIS (else, I would switch to someone not using IIS ("Insecure Internet Server" )). On Apache, several languages, including php, Perl, Python, Ruby, Tcl and etc. can be used in a "asp-like" manner (conceptually similar to SSI - "Server Side Includes"), as well as a CGI ("call this script") manner. Apache is easy to install on a Windows box (binaries on the Apache site), although sorting out the config file can be a tad challenging.

    FWIW (not much IMO), Perl and Python can both be scripting languages on IIS since there are scripting host interfaces for them (the Perl interface was paid for by MS, which might suggest just how important Perl is in the webdev world - it put a company called ActiveState in business pretty much). IIS only runs on $$$erver versions of Windows OS's. There is (or was) a personal edition ("PWS"?) for workstation (Windows Professional) OS's though. It allows development of ASP and etc. but it is not at all suitable as a public webserver due to the extreme limitations that MS has coded into the workstation OS products for TCP/IP connections (max: 2).

    In a (my) perfect world, I would set this up:
    (click to download! or click on "website link" where available to view docs, etc.)
    Apache 2.0.49 (Windows binary) ( website link)
    mod_python 3.13 (website link) (binary available from me by request)
    Python 2.3.3 (Windows binary) (website link)
    MySQL-Python 0.9.2 (Windows binary)
    MySQL 4.0 (Windows binary) (website link)
    Webware 0.8.1 (Zip file) (website link)
    Cheetah (Zip file) (website link)
    (that's about 45mb of goodies, all free! [img]smile.gif[/img] )

    For a "call script, return html" model, check out the Quixote website.

    [ 03-20-2004, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    What is the best website builder for commercial use these days? Shopify, Wix?

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    You might want to take a look at using Google's Flutter and Dart


    For a more modern approach.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    Long live the memory of Meerkat.

    There is no best website builder. Choosing a solution depends on your use case. It’s like picking a boat design. You align the design with how and where you’d like to use the boat.

    Shopify is easy enough to stand up if you’re selling products. Wix always felt bargain basement to me. My business is on Squarespace. We’re due for a new site. Most of the internet seems to be on Wordpress these days. I may head that direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    Though it is nice to see Meerkat and Bruce Hooke and some others get bumped, why are you replying to a bot?
    Steve Martinsen

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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    Nicholas Carey has been called many things (all good, of course) but he is not deserving of bot.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  28. #28
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SMARTINSEN View Post
    Though it is nice to see Meerkat and Bruce Hooke and some others get bumped, why are you replying to a bot?


    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Nicholas Carey has been called many things (all good, of course) but he is not deserving of bot.

    I believe he's talking about this hollymolly critter. I had not realized somebody had dredged up an 18-year old thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by hollymolly View Post
    What is the best website builder for commercial use these days? Shopify, Wix?
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    Seems just like the normal, mildly confused tech support help questions often received in the bilge. Nice job, bot writer!
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    I noticed a rash of new members posting recently.I have wondered whether the thread on Ukraine attracted them.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Website Development - The Next Level

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Long live the memory of Meerkat.

    There is no best website builder. Choosing a solution depends on your use case. It’s like picking a boat design. You align the design with how and where you’d like to use the boat.

    Shopify is easy enough to stand up if you’re selling products. Wix always felt bargain basement to me. My business is on Squarespace. We’re due for a new site. Most of the internet seems to be on Wordpress these days. I may head that direction.
    Always thought that Squarspace is only for photographers.
    Wix is good, Wordpress is in the past for me now.
    Friend of mine just sent me this article about different website builders https://www.webbuildersguide.com/best-website-builder/, maybe will be useful for someone else too.
    Last edited by mike9199; 09-19-2022 at 06:12 AM.

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