W17 Trimaran

[jshaley]

I just enjoyed reading through Lee's thread on his build. It coincided with me bumping into the W17 (https://smalltridesign.com)

I have been reviewing designs for a while now, was enjoying reading about the Wharram cats but two wet for me. I am not a speedy sailor but for cruising speed can open up new destinations.

I like that the designer Mike Waters was focusing on stability and efficiency of slicing through the water. I like that it is trailerable and has a large cockpit.

I guess I am surprised I do not see more out there? Is it that tris are a niche? Anyways, would welcome thoughts on anything I might be missing.

Thanks

[Jfitzger]

Tris are niche but the W17 is a combination of several niches. It has a relatively high performance and expensive rig featuring a rotating wing mast but than combines it with a flat bottomed, slab sided hull. People that build Wharrams or Bolger boxes typical want simpler and cheaper rigs. The go fast multihull set want nothing to do with a plywood box.

The designer states the building cost is $4200 to $7900 in 2020 which is $5400 to $10,190 adjusted for inflation. It's fair amount in build cost for a daysailer with minimal resell value.

I'm not knocking the W17 as a boat but I can see why they are not that common. If I was looking for a similar boat my approach would be to buy a Hobie 14, which can be had for dirt cheap, and use the rig on a home built hull. Perhaps the amas could be used also. I seem to remember others doing something similar but I can't recall where.

In the end if it's the perfect boat for you it might make sense to build it but it might be helpful to understand the limited appeal. This is all, of course, just my opinion and hopefully others will be along offer their own.

[mattglynn]

Tris are niche but the W17 is a combination of several niches

I agree, tris in general are a tough sell within the sailing community let alone self build plans. For example the W17 designer states 450-600 hrs building, which is probably more like 700-800. In less than half that time you could build a Welsford Pathfinder which has a similar LOA. Another issue is where to put it, maybe you're lucky and have a lakefront property where you can keep it on the dock, but most people will either have to trailer it, or pay for a slip/mooring. Trailering is a pain because of how long it takes to set-up and rig, so probably no after work weekday sails, and its really hard to find an affordable slip that can handle a 14' wide boat. The W17 can't be folded with the rig up.

All that being said a small tri can be a great sailing boat. Our Seaclipper 20 is fast, stable, and dry. The 7'x7' cockpit makes it very comfortable to stretch out on a warm summer day. You don't have to move body weight around like on a dinghy, and its infinitely sportier than a short beamy tub with a cabin. Its easy for our non-sailing friends to enjoy coming out for a day, and everyone wants to crew on the "fast boat" in our beer league regattas. The shallow draft and beachability create a lot of possibilities especially here on the Baltic coast that is so shallow.

It has a relatively high performance and expensive rig featuring a rotating wing mast but than combines it with a flat bottomed, slab sided hull. People that build Wharrams or Bolger boxes typical want simpler and cheaper rigs

The rig always confused me on the W17. Almost every small tri uses a recycled beach cat rig, why go with a custom mast/custom sail that has not had nearly the development that beach cat rigs have had. Probably just a designer ego thing. I disagree about the flat bottom box thing. Almost every fast modern (non-foiling) trimaran has a flat bottom, small chine radius and flared straight sides. See Multi 23 and Diam 24. This shape is the natural development between performance, and creating the needed space to comfortably accommodate a human. The bottom panel becomes so small in the fine bows that there is very little if any pounding. The asymmetric V amas prevent leeway in shallow water without the board.

If I was looking for a similar boat my approach would be to buy a Hobie 14, which can be had for dirt cheap, and use the rig on a home built hull. Perhaps the amas could be used also

This is a another peculiarity with the small trimaran thing. The market of people interested in these boats and willing to self build is already small, and as you saw with Lee a lot of them look at the available plans, and then decide to design one themselves, usually cobbling things together with old beach cat hulls.


At the end of the day it is cheaper and easier to buy a used beach cat or monohull and just go sailing.

[Lee.007]

This is a another peculiarity with the small trimaran thing. The market of people interested in these boats and willing to self build is already small, and as you saw with Lee a lot of them look at the available plans, and then decide to design one themselves, a usually cobbling things together with old beach cat hulls.

This is why my ears were burning tonight.... Matt is right about that. I looked at A TON of small trimaran designs. Several of them had stuff I liked, but not one of them had everything I liked. Its kind of a personal choice, similar to buying a gun. You want it to work the way you want it to, you don't want it to ever fail, you want it to be small enough to transport, but big enough to do the job, and you want to trust it with your life. I took inspiration from a lot of different designs, and then drew up my own. If I had more resources, I would have built a Seaclipper 20, but that will have to wait until I retire. Actually, the wife said that WILL be the next boat I build. (and then there will be three...)

At the end of the day it is cheaper and easier to buy a used beach cat or monohull and just go sailing.

But what is the fun in that? I like building for the joy of taking something from my head and making it come to life in reality. Now I will be the first to admit I was terrified the first time I went out in my CLC Sailrig on my homemade kayak, because I was the one that built it (and I had never sailed before in my life). But once I got her dialed in, there is nothing like the satisfaction of sailing faster on the lake than the local rich guys on something I built in my own in my garage.

jshaley I don't know if you were talking about my new design I am building or my CLC Sailrig for my Kayak, but here is a link to it if you want: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...eds+help+small . You can see videos of it on my youtube channel if you are interested. do a search on youtube for "Lee's Kayak Trimarans" and you will find it.

I must warn you though... building trimarans, or any sailboat for that matter, can become a severe addiction for which there is no cure, but much joy to be had!! Have fun, and I would like to see what you settle on for your boat!!

[sp_clark]

I guess I am surprised I do not see more out there? Is it that tris are a niche?

Depending on where you live and the relative level of boating activity available to you I wouldn't at all be surprised. And yes, I believe tris are a niche.

Mike Waters would disagree* I suspect, he being an exception amongst the more typical boating audience.

But I'm in a niche audience myself, having recently built and launched a CLC Waterlust expedition canoe. Despite not being entirely new to sailing (my limited experience being a home-built, Bermuda rigged 14' 'stripper' scow back some half century) I'd since hankered for something a little more adventurous. Had plans for a few Iain Oughtred designs, his MacGregor being my favorite, but alas the distractions proved too numerous in the ensuing years to see one get built. Hence the appeal of a kit when CLC offered their Waterlust commissioned design to their followers; I bought one I think the first day they appeared.

Launched late in 2021 I was quite pleased with the result yet intimidated by its complexity and - when unballasted - inherent lack of stability. Of course in more experience hands I'm certain this aspect isn't as much of a handicap yet other builders who've been contributing to a forum thread over in the UK have found their craft to present similar challenges. Which, once brought to the attention of the CLC staff and the Waterlust's designer, resulted in the development of their accessory 'training wheel' ama + aka design and kit.

Prior to the news of that last development I'd contacted Mike Waters with a mind to learning whether he might be interested in giving me some ideas about how I might add extra stability to my Waterlust. We agreed to proceed with a small commission of sorts that resulted in his giving me a reduced-scale version of his W17's ama design along with a plan for twin, folding akas to connect them to my main hull. A 'trimaran' of sorts though not quite what he was used to imagining.

When CLC made their package available I'd already begun the lofting of Mike's concept. The evident savings in time and complexity of CLC'S design caused me to abandon that path; I already had suitable materials on hand for building a pair plus the single aka so purchased their plans-only package. Others on that UK forum have done the same thing, or purchased their full kit package, and the results have been gratifying.

Presently I'm using Mike's idea for building the fiberglass and epoxy hinge and latch system off his W17 akas to allow my single laminated aka to fold on both sides during launching, then be deployed once away from a dock then folded up again before recovery. The one time I managed to get out last season, the first time the akas were mounted, both proved their value in added stability as well as presented significant frustrations dealing with their width when deployed while also launching adjacent to a dock.

*A quote from an e-mail Mike sent in reply recently:

"I can only be reminded again of 'why on earth would anyone waste their time with such a cramped boat propelled with so slowly and inefficiently with a handkerchief of sail, when there are 'real' boats out there??

Sure beats me!!

You need to watch the videos here... and remember, in ALL these videos, I am 81 to 86 yrs old and my crew is ~ 60... it's that easy, and I sail alone 80% of the time."

Had I known of Mike's W17 design before becoming enamored of the sailing canoe concept I doubt I would have been interested owing to the logistics of having and using one besides the cost of ownership.

And I'll be 74 next week (I was 45 when I discovered Oughtred's MacGregor) so there's something about having aspirations scaled to my abilities too in the realization.

[Jfitzger]

*A quote from an e-mail Mike sent in reply recently:

"I can only be reminded again of 'why on earth would anyone waste their time with such a cramped boat propelled with so slowly and inefficiently with a handkerchief of sail, when there are 'real' boats out there??

Sure beats me!!

I've heard this attitude from the small trimaran fanboys so often. It strikes me as an oddly myopic view of sailing. Every time a kayak or canoe with outriggers comes up everyone likes to point out that the amas need to be bigger so you can add more sail area and make it a proper trimaran. It completely misses the point that it adds windage and weight which makes paddling and beaching harder and handling in rough water more difficult.

Boats like the W17 are really only good at going fast in reasonably flat water. I can't imagine beach cruising one or dealing with lumpy seas. If you load it for daysailing you lose the speed. There is nowhere near me that I could race one. The lake I keep my boat on doesn't have a beam limit but the moorings are tight and the 14' of the W17 would make it problematic. I like going fast but I want a boat that can do more.

I disagree about the flat bottom box thing. Almost every fast modern (non-foiling) trimaran has a flat bottom, small chine radius and flared straight sides. See Multi 23 and Diam 24..

I haven't seen a W17 in person so it might not be fair of me to comment but I have seen some larger homemade tris of similar shape that just look hacky. The small radius chines and slight flare in the topsides make all the difference.

[jshaley]

Ok, the caution about the expensive rig is something I did not think of, thank you. He mentions two - racing and cruising. I will look into if cruising rig is simpler.

"decide to design one themselves" - well, I am keen on cashing in on someone who has designed for a living. I see nuances in my profession that make me appreciate them more in others. I can certainly put together something that floats but feel I would be missing the boat. But here I am considering building rather than buying (the obvious economical choice) so if there is a pride in building there certainly must be a pride in designing. I guess every boat is a compromise, and if you design it yourself you can minimize those. Waters design brief: simplicity of sailing, stability, etc really matches mine.

The width for docking is of course a concern. I do not have waterfront property so would strictly be trailering.

The sensitivity to load is a big issue for me. If the race rig does 15 knots but this drops to 10 or less when loaded and some of Welsford's monos do 7-8 than the added complexity may not pan out for me. Stability, or rather comfort for non sailors, is a key attraction but some monos you can stand on the rail

Looking at Seaclipper 20 too - but if it is 3' bigger than storage, towing, etc.

Underestimating build cost/time is a great concern. If you are building a Pathfinder you have a whole mess of people who have built that boat, other boats by that designer, or similar boats from other designers so I would think you get a mess of experience based advice.

[sp_clark]

I urge you to contact Mr Waters. He lives and sails on Lake Champlain (if he's returned from his forced pandemic stay up in Canada by now) and he welcomes questions posted to that smalltridesign.com website he's put up. You're close enough in Rochester you might be able to arrange to visit him, maybe sail together on a W17.

[mattglynn]

But here I am considering building rather than buying

Oh, I thought you were just trying to appreciate the design, not pick one to build. This changes things.

Ok, the caution about the expensive rig is something I did not think of, thank you. He mentions two - racing and cruising. I will look into if cruising rig is simpler.

It will be a little bit cheaper, but any custom rig is going to be more expensive than a used rig. A custom rig is okay, you would probably gain a performance benefit, the question is whether the extra time and money is worth it for you.

The width for docking is of course a concern. I do not have waterfront property so would strictly be trailering.

It can be hard finding a place to dock with such a wide boat, but remember it can also be beached which is a huge benefit. The amas have enough buoyancy that you can step off the dock onto them, unlike the Waterlust amas. Also the W17 cannot be folded with the rig up to fit into a birth.

The sensitivity to load is a big issue for me. If the race rig does 15 knots but this drops to 10 or less when loaded and some of Welsford's monos do 7-8 than the added complexity may not pan out for me. Stability, or rather comfort for non sailors, is a key attraction but some monos you can stand on the rail

This one is kind of hard to answer. Most any tri will sail fast if you keep up enough sail in enough wind, but honestly most people get scared and don't push their tri's that close to the edge. I think the real question is how the boat moves in light to moderate winds, so look at sail area/displacement ratio, length to beam ratio, and wetted surface. Comparing a similarly loaded tri to a similarly loaded mono the trimaran will most likely sail circles around the mono. The exception being a really good planing mono downwind in a fresh breeze. I cannot overstate how much more comfortable, and stable a small tri feels when compared to a similar sized open mono. The ability to move around, and the amount of space to sit or lay down is really nice. Taking non-sailing friends out is easy, they just sit on the bench and relax, and nobody needs to move when we tack, just ask everyone to duck their heads a little bit.

Looking at Seaclipper 20 too - but if it is 3' bigger than storage, towing, etc.

Hard to say without knowing your situation better. In reality the Seaclipper is not that much bigger, but if you have a small building space, or storage space the bigger boat might not work. Once you get away from a boat you can pick up and move around by hand a couple feet and a couple hundred pounds don't make much of a difference for me. We trailered our Seaclipper 20 over the Alps with a 75hp VW GOlf, so I don't think towing will be an issue either.

Here are some links to similar boats, you have probably found them already, but if not it might help.

https://www.searunner.com/index.php/seaclipper-16-oc

http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.p...arans-under-25

http://www.teamscarab.com.au/Scarab%2018Des.html

https://samaloutrigger.wordpress.com/l20trimaranplans/

https://bandbyachtdesigns.com/sailboats/minitrimaran/

or Some production models if building seems like too much of a pain in the a**

https://www.nickelsboatworks.com/products/wr17

https://corsairmarine.com/pulse-600/

http://www.searail19.com/

[Woxbox]

The sensitivity to load is a big issue for me. If the race rig does 15 knots but this drops to 10 or less when loaded and some of Welsford's monos do 7-8 than the added complexity may not pan out for me. Stability, or rather comfort for non sailors, is a key attraction but some monos you can stand on the rail

Comparing top potential speeds of monos vs. multis doesn't begin to give a feel for the real life experience. In light airs, the multis will move much more quickly than a mono of similar length. As the wind picks up, the multi will continue to accelerate long after the mono hits its hull speed. Beyond that, the multi moves quickly without any drama. Non sailors feel comfortable because the boat stays flat. The gusts just produce a surge of speed, rather than the sudden heeling that scares the uninitiated in a monohull boat. It is true that some multis throw up a lot of water and give a wet ride. But others are very dry -- it depends on the specific boat.

I don't see why a used Hobie or similar rig couldn't be put on the W17. It's what I would do. And I wouldn't worry about the beam - I've sailed multis with beams of 17, 18 and 20 feet for many years, and never once had a problem finding a place to tie up.

[jshaley]

So W17 I believe is out. There are several places I frequent where getting a slip is desirable, and the W17's beautiful folding Amas would not work - I do not think the boat is stable with one or both folded up (no experience, just watching the center of gravity go up). The Seaclipper 16 is very similar and approaches the ama question differently (folds to side). Was not familiar with Scarab - wow. Love the idea of a cabin (I find the Corsair F24 really attractive and the concept of building one is exciting - but not 1st boat).

Thank you all.

[Rumars]

The W17 has several folding options, one of them beeing folding to the side with both amas in the water. At least one example has been built that way. See here: https://smalltridesign.com/Trimaran-...ems-Part4.html