Designs for a Vintage 5hp inboard motor

[Canoeyawl]

I have some experience running and repairing 5 hp Frisco Standards and 5hp Hicks from the same era 1907 and up for the National Park Service collection. They were direct drive in forward with a dead simple planetary reversing gear. Any reduction gearbox will require a way over square propellor
Max rpm for that engine will be about 350-400 tops. They are happy in the 250 rpm range.
Propellers were sized by the flywheel diameter. Somewhere I have a guide book published in that era. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Standard application for these engines here on the west coast was the 27 foot Monterey boat a pretty good sized craft that evolved from the Felucca.
They tend to leak lube oil and fuel all over the place and modern gasoline has a low enough vapor point to make them dangerous in a closed vessel

more questions,
How do you regulate engine speed?
Does this start on gasoline, run on kerosene?
Does it use a Manzel oiler?

edit: Found the wee book, it fits in a shirt pocket!
friggin iphone...
(I'll try to edit/rotate these in a bit)

I might guess a 15-16 inch wheel with a 20" pitch (rare!)
(today that is steam engine stuff, any reduction gearbox will make it near impossible to find a wheel). You need a direct drive planetary reverse gear that keeps the output shaft directly in line with the crankshaft. You might find one or you might have to make one. If I remember correctly the Hicks reverse gear is about 7/8 rpm of the crankshaft. Not quite the same speed as forward. A problem with the old propellers is they get thin with age (corrosion over 100 years) and the strong power impulses can actually knock the pitch out of them reducing there effectiveness.
I love taking those old things to sea, the engine is the proverbial heartbeat. I repaired a Hicks not so long ago and captured a video of it running, I'll hunt for it and post a link.
The Hicks regulates engine speed by changing the intake valve lash; at idle the valve has about a 1/2" lash and a 1/16" opening
It uses an eccentric rocker shaft to accomplish this. Most of those old Marvel Schebler type carburetors have no butterfly and uses the intake stroke to create a vacuum in the carb float chamber which with a leather diaphragm and a foot valve acts as the fuel pump. Dead simple which makes it rather sophisticated to get tuned correctly!
(Thinking about the reverse gear, does it by any chance have a sliding camshaft that changes timing to run in reverse?)


65B09CBA-B47C-4728-99FE-9089509D96B0.jpg

F22A966B-517F-4368-BCE2-171C9BF36605.jpg

[Canoeyawl]

[Autonomous]

I don't see me modifying an old fiberglass sailboat, that would not do the old motor justice.

-Jeff

Understood.
I should have been more specific. Sometimes something like one of Ian Oughtred's open wooden sailboat designs will come on the market. I suppose one could remove the sheer plank and add a partial deck. Modifying it for inboard power might be the hard part though.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Here's a mine of ideas...
https://steamboatassociation.co.uk/

[shickey]

Not much here on Frisbie engines at first glance but this a great site for parts and advice: http://www.oldmarineengine.com/histo...ie/frisbie.htm

[Edward Pearson]

In 1980 William Garden designed this boatyard workboat Simoom for shipwright Peter London accross the water from you at Sidney, BC.

Less yachty, being shorter but simpler than the Gartside shown earlier, notably Garden designed her to use a 350lb vintage 1920 Vivian 5hp single cylinder gasoline engine Peter also had to hand.

She has a shallow V bottom, to single chine. Ply on frame. Horseshoe stern. 16' x 7'. 5 knots. Engine forward of mid ships in front of the helm.

By his account she was a successful useful workboat. She's in Yacht Designs by William Garden including offsets and a basic construction drawing.

fullsizeoutput_65.jpg

[mtbjeff]

No love for Tug? I'm sad. She may not be elegant but she has fathoms and fathoms of character. One might even call her "salty" if one were inclined toward such things, before breaking into a sea chanty.

"There once was a ship that put tae sea..."

Haha don't get me wrong; I like the idea of a Tug, just not for this project. I would like something where the engine is visible.

[AndanteEd]

Apologies if it's a bit off topic, but is that an Alfa Montreal in the background?

[cstevens]

Haha don't get me wrong; I like the idea of a Tug, just not for this project. I would like something where the engine is visible.

Not “a Tug”. The design is just called “Tug”. It’s a mostly open working launch that would be perfect for that engine. I shared it a few posts ago. Might have been missed. But also not everyone’s cuppa.

[mtbjeff]

Apologies if it's a bit off topic, but is that an Alfa Montreal in the background?

Yes it is, my 1971 Alfa Romeo Montreal project, one of my other distractions... Other than the paint and body work, I'm doing all the work myself.

IMG_1502 Montreal.jpg0F0634B9-2695-4060-8B4A-16DCF0C60145.jpgIMG_4228.jpgIMG_0007.jpg

[Jamie Orr]

FWIW, I have a 5hp Atlantic make and break, two stroke so perhaps not exactly equivalent but some of this might help your thinking. It came out of 27 ft St Pierre dory and turns a two bladed propeller, 18x18.

For comparison, my Atlantic weighs an estimated 250 lbs, give or take, with a heavy 17 inch flywheel.

My first choice of boat for it would be a Newfoundland trap skiff, 21 to 24 feet long. Not the Walt Simmons sailing trap skiff but the old powered work boat.

There's a Facebook group, the Newfoundland make and break, or something like that, you might find interesting. Also the Winterton museum.

Jamie

[AndanteEd]

Yes it is, my 1971 Alfa Romeo Montreal project, one of my other distractions... Other than the paint and body work, I'm doing all the work myself.

Gosh

Jeff

The 5HP Frisbie is a fine looking thing and undoubtedly a solid bit of engineering but, and perhaps I'm on the wrong forum here, for me your Alfa has completely eclipsed it!

It's utterly gorgeous, and great to see one that's being so comprehensively restored.

Thank you for posting the additional pics.

Ed

[mtbjeff]

[QUOTE=Canoeyawl;6825014]I have some experience running and repairing 5 hp Frisco Standards and 5hp Hicks from the same era 1907 and up for the National Park Service collection. They were direct drive in forward with a dead simple planetary reversing gear. Any reduction gearbox will require a way over square propellor
Max rpm for that engine will be about 350-400 tops. They are happy in the 250 rpm range.
Propellers were sized by the flywheel diameter. Somewhere I have a guide book published in that era. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Standard application for these engines here on the west coast was the 27 foot Monterey boat a pretty good sized craft that evolved from the Felucca.
They tend to leak lube oil and fuel all over the place and modern gasoline has a low enough vapor point to make them dangerous in a closed vessel

more questions,
How do you regulate engine speed?
Does this start on gasoline, run on kerosene?
Does it use a Manzel oiler?

edit: Found the wee book, it fits in a shirt pocket!
friggin iphone...
(I'll try to edit/rotate these in a bit)

I might guess a 15-16 inch wheel with a 20" pitch (rare!)
(today that is steam engine stuff, any reduction gearbox will make it near impossible to find a wheel). You need a direct drive planetary reverse gear that keeps the output shaft directly in line with the crankshaft. You might find one or you might have to make one. If I remember correctly the Hicks reverse gear is about 7/8 rpm of the crankshaft. Not quite the same speed as forward. A problem with the old propellers is they get thin with age (corrosion over 100 years) and the strong power impulses can actually knock the pitch out of them reducing there effectiveness.
I love taking those old things to sea, the engine is the proverbial heartbeat. I repaired a Hicks not so long ago and captured a video of it running, I'll hunt for it and post a link.
The Hicks regulates engine speed by changing the intake valve lash; at idle the valve has about a 1/2" lash and a 1/16" opening
It uses an eccentric rocker shaft to accomplish this. Most of those old Marvel Schebler type carburetors have no butterfly and uses the intake stroke to create a vacuum in the carb float chamber which with a leather diaphragm and a foot valve acts as the fuel pump. Dead simple which makes it rather sophisticated to get tuned correctly!
(Thinking about the reverse gear, does it by any chance have a sliding camshaft that changes timing to run in reverse?)


65B09CBA-B47C-4728-99FE-9089509D96B0.jpg

F22A966B-517F-4368-BCE2-171C9BF36605.jpg[/QUOTE

Canoeyawl thank you so much for the information and video. One of my first projects is to make a Motor testing stand to work out any bugs out before I go too far. I've only had the Motor for a short time. I picked up the Frisbie from my neighbor Randy who owned a Machine shop in Port Angeles that did a fair amount of Marine engine work. The Motor uses a Detroit twin oiler that mount on the Flywheel side of the cylinder that is missing from the picture. The Carburetor is a Air Friction Carburetor that appears to be a aftermarket part for a Model T. I believe the Ignition is an Atwater Kent Type but I'm not sure.

This Frisbie motor does not have any type of eccentric for the Rocker Arms, I believe Frisbie did make this as an option on later production models.

My Motor is a 5hp Frisbie Model A Serial No. A1688 with 4 3/4-inch Bore and 5-inch Stroke (This was the smallest Marine Motor Frisbie sold)

I will start looking for a suitable Transmission and Propellers

This article talks about the Frisbie Motor Company and is the most details I've found so far. First Things - Gas Engine Magazine

-Jeff

IMG_0766.jpgIMG_0766.jpg

[mtbjeff]

Thank you Edward

I would really like to keep the boat under 22 ft and be able to store on a trailer, that way it could be stored inside my shop when not in use. Hopefully the Motor would not be to unruly for a boat that size.

[Canoeyawl]

https://www.northweststeamsociety.org/classifieds
(There are a couple of propellers)

4264BF6C-013D-4E6C-A767-0461D5D409DD.jpg

[johnw]

Draketail launch desiged for 5-7 hp engine:





More here:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...or-CBMM-sheets

The plans were published in Sucher's Simplified Boatbuilding: The V-bottomed Boat.

[Canoeyawl]

Sucher's designs are attractive
(But the offsets are far from fair)

[NickW]

Depending on how quick a build you're looking at have you looked at Paul Fisher's steam launch designs, some ply on frame others strip planked.

https://www.selway-fisher.com/Steamup20.htm

Nick

[Garret]

I also have to add compliments on the Montreal. Gorgeous! The idea of stripping & replacing an Italian wiring harness spooks me though - I've spent too many hours in Fiat wiring.

If you haven't seen it, you may find this thread interesting: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-cars-pictures

It was started by a now passed forum member & has a ton of great stuff in it.

[Breakaway]

Robert M Steward's Barbara Anne has always been a favorite of mine.
You could always remove the engine cover and leave it on the dock when you wanted to show off the engine--or build it with clear panels incorporated.

https://www.woodenboat.com/boat-plan...h-barbara-anne

Screenshot 2023-03-27 at 4.34.29 PM.jpg

Screenshot 2023-03-27 at 4.34.16 PM.jpg


Kevin

[mtbjeff]

Thank you everyone that replied and shared so many interesting thoughts and designs. It sounds like this 5 hp motor with its large flywheel is able handle a boat up to 20-25 feet. I'm definitely going to go over to the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding in Port Hadlock and talk with them since they are so close to me. I'm going to build a suitable engine test stand on a cart for the motor so I can tune its low and high speed running. I also have some new ignition and oiler parts coming for it soon. When I get it up and running, I'll post up a video of it.

-Jeff

[Canoeyawl]

Does that carb have the ability to lift fuel?
These old engines/carbs are "leaky" and a fire hazard in an enclosed space, gravity fuel feed is frowned upon.
Some sort of lift pump and primer is advised. "All" of the old singles in the Monterey boats were retrofitted with an automotive fuel pump adapted with a tab clamped on a pushrod. This could be activated by hand to prime the carb.

edit for pics:

early brass Marvel Schebler with a added throttle plate would be typical.
(With adjustable valve lift the throttle plate (butterfly) is not needed)

Side draft:
B036D9FF-AE8B-4688-B4BD-1BE4DFD7C7B7.jpg

Updraft: (rare)
3AC0304F-CA28-44F2-A271-02FC8F7EF36F.jpeg

[mtbjeff]

Does that carb have the ability to lift fuel?
These old engines/carbs are "leaky" and a fire hazard in an enclosed space, gravity fuel feed is frowned upon.
Some sort of lift pump and primer is advised. "All" of the old singles in the Monterey boats were retrofitted with an automotive fuel pump adapted with a tab clamped on a pushrod. This could be activated by hand to prime the carb.

edit for pics:

early brass Marvel Schebler with a added throttle plate would be typical.
(With adjustable valve lift the throttle plate (butterfly) is not needed)

Side draft:
B036D9FF-AE8B-4688-B4BD-1BE4DFD7C7B7.jpg

Updraft: (rare)
3AC0304F-CA28-44F2-A271-02FC8F7EF36F.jpeg

No, the motor has no fuel pump to lift fuel to carburetor.

[mtbjeff]

The other day I sent an email to the Russell Library in Middletown CT to see if they had any information on The Frisbie Motor CO. To my surprise the reference librarian sent me two pdf's of Frisbie catalog's #15 & #17. Here are the pages from the #15 catalog, I'm unsure of the year.

Frisbie Catalog #15 Edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0001 Edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0002 edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0003 Edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0004 Edit.jpg

[mtbjeff]

Frisbie Catalog #15_0005 Edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0006 edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0007 Edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0008 Edit.jpg

[mtbjeff]

Frisbie Catalog #15_0009 Edit.jpgFrisbie Catalog #15_0010 Edit.jpg

[Canoeyawl]

Many early carburetors use a leather diaphragm to create an internal vacuum type fuel pump. I was thinking perhaps the Air Friction carb also used that. Model T's had a need for a fuel pump...
Vacuum fuel pumps were common)

https://www.mtfca.com/discus/message...tml?1261676994

DDE7E59D-0370-40A2-B2B0-D50F3B446D8D.jpg
https://patents.google.com/patent/US1037834A/en

[Canoeyawl]

https://www.scsgearbox.com/product-catalogs/reversers/

https://www.scsgearbox.com/wp-conten...tput-Short.pdf

[Canoeyawl]

Here's a Paragon reverse gear in your neck of the woods (might be the correct 1:1 forward ratio)
ebay# 285102018596

72D951E6-CB9E-4715-8300-914167D613B6.jpg

If it's correct, they might not show up to often!

[mtbjeff]

Wow, thank you for finding the carburetor information!

Jeff

[hawkeye54]

Jeff, check out the thread " Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @ MIT " by 'DoctorB, who posts on this forum. He has done extensive research on the early engines.



Rick

[Canoeyawl]

I'm "pretty sure" this is the Paragon reverse gear transmission you are looking for...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Par...edirect=mobile

[mtbjeff]

I'm "pretty sure" this is the Paragon reverse gear transmission you are looking for...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Par...edirect=mobile

Yeah, I just wish it wasn't 3,000 miles away from me.

[mtbjeff]

Jeff, check out the thread " Atlantic Make and Break Fabrication Project @ MIT " by 'DoctorB, who posts on this forum. He has done extensive research on the early engines.



Rick

Thank you, I did take a look at some of his posts!

[Canoeyawl]

Yeah, I just wish it wasn't 3,000 miles away from me.

make him an offer minus freight costs?
(It would probably ship for a couple hundred bucks)