Biodegradable Boat Building--No Plastic!

[stromborg]

A belated "welcome to the forum" from across Rich Passage!

I think a few questions are in order.

What do you consider "light"? And how do you intend to use the boat? How do you plan on getting it to the water and back home?

You will be hard pressed to match the strength and resilience of a well-engineered 4mm plywood and epoxy pram using dimensional wood and be anywhere near the same weight. My next big project will be a traditional build, but that is a much because I've built a bunch of plywood and epoxy boats and want the challenge of a traditional build as it is chasing after a nominally less toxic process. You can't ignore the non-biodegradable nature of paint, varnish and bedding compound.

[jpatrick]

Pram? Rolling it a few blocks? Trad Build?

https://www.harrybryan.com/products






Kevin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Has anyone used one of those Ladybug prams by Harry Bryan? I've been contemplating one for a while now. I'll soon need a new dinghy to use for accessing my moored boat. The beach is all cobbles and it can be a ways from storage spot to waters edge if the tide is low. But I need a bit of stability and I have my doubts about this one. I'd appreciate any comments.

Jeff

[stromborg]

Borrow Chris' wheelbarrow, throw 85-100 pounds of dirt in there, take it for a test drive up and down your hill and get back to us.

Does this mean we're launching Emily Ruth soon? If you want to try out my Portage Pram I'll bring it over.

[YukonHarbor]

Pram? Rolling it a few blocks? Trad Build?

https://www.harrybryan.com/products






Kevin

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks Kevin! It's been an adventure seeing all the different builders/designers and checking out their goods. Really I want to stay around 60#. This one's 80#. I'll get specific when I answer the gentlemen across Rich Passage.

R.E. There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it." Are they lying about running aground or not running aground?

[Garret]

...

R.E. There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it." Are they lying about running aground or not running aground?

I can answer that! Yes.

[YukonHarbor]

A belated "welcome to the forum" from across Rich Passage!

I think a few questions are in order.

What do you consider "light"? And how do you intend to use the boat? How do you plan on getting it to the water and back home?

You will be hard pressed to match the strength and resilience of a well-engineered 4mm plywood and epoxy pram using dimensional wood and be anywhere near the same weight. My next big project will be a traditional build, but that is a much because I've built a bunch of plywood and epoxy boats and want the challenge of a traditional build as it is chasing after a nominally less toxic process. You can't ignore the non-biodegradable nature of paint, varnish and bedding compound.

Hello there across Rich Passage! (South Beach is a short sail; but a loooong drive!)

Steve, Thank's for asking!

Weight I'm thinking @ 60#--leverage-able onto car racks, dolly-able to and fro tsunami level and the shore.
Size @ 4' x LOA (?). Much wider it will be hard to car top.
Pram--more capacity per LOA
Spritsail, leeboard, oars--fast brail & stow row-able under low bridges, open bilge, lots of tie downs.
Stitch-n-goo/phew--no way underwear.

Presently looking at the Humble Bee by Iain Oughtred 7' 9" Clinker Pram Dinghy. The Feather Pram is maybe too small and light. Someone mentioned system 3 water based; I haven't checked that out yet.

[YukonHarbor]

Ha ha

Also were those pics of a wheel keel? How easy it would be to drive even a fairly large boat up and down hills with an electric driven wheel keel.

[Breakaway]

Hello there across Rich Passage! (South Beach is a short sail; but a loooong drive!)

Steve, Thank's for asking!

Weight I'm thinking @ 60#--leverage-able onto car racks, dolly-able to and fro tsunami level and the shore.
Size @ 4' x LOA (?). Much wider it will be hard to car top.
Pram--more capacity per LOA
Spritsail, leeboard, oars--fast brail & stow row-able under low bridges, open bilge, lots of tie downs.
Stitch-n-goo/phew--no way underwear.

Presently looking at the Humble Bee by Iain Oughtred 7' 9" Clinker Pram Dinghy. The Feather Pram is maybe too small and light. Someone mentioned system 3 water based; I haven't checked that out yet.

One thing to consider is that a longer boat is generally easier to car-top because you can lift one end up, lift the other, and then slide the boat into position. An eight foot boat needs to be lifted up all in one go.

Another, regarding jpatricks comment is that a shorter boat offers less opportunity to balance the weight of the boat on a wheel or dolly.

The front mount wheel of Ladybug puts most of the boats weight on the handles. However, if you place a cart under the boat at or near its balance point, its much easier to just push the boat, as you are not lifting much.

You would still need wheels /tires suitable to the terrain.

Kevin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[stromborg]

My "Feather" Pram came in around 60 pounds, somebody else here has one on the 40's which I think was mostly the difference between 4 and 6 mm plywood. It's a tiny little boat without a lot of stability, the Portage Pram, a very similarly sized boat is much more settled feeling on the water, a lot lighter too.

[stromborg]

Winter storage, PP on the laft, FP to the right.

[YukonHarbor]

Winter storage, PP on the laft, FP to the right.

Nice! How is juggling tiller, sheet, and leeboard on the FP? I guess I should also ask about the sail, and are the planks ply or cedar?

[stromborg]

I built the mast and sail for the FP then took her out for a spin under oars and decided that she was just too little for me (6'-0" 225lbs) to go sailing in so stopped there. If I were to go ahead and finish the sailing rig I'd probably put a daggerboard in just to avoid the extra faffing about.

[jpatrick]

Borrow Chris' wheelbarrow, throw 85-100 pounds of dirt in there, take it for a test drive up and down your hill and get back to us.

Does this mean we're launching Emily Ruth soon? If you want to try out my Portage Pram I'll bring it over.

Steve, I can just barely manage our hill with an unloaded wheelbarrow! But my query here was more about the water stability of the Ladybug boat. However, in reading this thread, and thinking about it... perhaps the portage pram with the addition of a single or maybe two wheels at the bow will work nicely. I've got a couple of nicely made aluminum brackets that are made for the task. So, yes I would like to try out your PP some time. (I promise I won't steal it and cut holes through the transom for oars/handles. Who would even dream of such a thing?) But the launch of Emily Ruth won't be for a while.

Jeff

[heimlaga]

Those very short prams are a pain to row any longer distances than a few hundred metres (or yards) across a harbour to and from a moored yacht or on anything but flat water. Prams intended to be used on their own and in any sort of a seaway are generally much longer in relation to the beam. I think a 13 foot hull would be the minimum for the sort of use you think about.
With half inch thick softwood planking an a slightly thicker keel plank it should still be a fairly light boat. Around here 12 mm rather knotty spruce planking is typical for light boats like that. The knots are important as they keep the planks from splitting.

Something like this https://www.beckmanseka.se/

[stromborg]

Those very short prams are a pain to row any longer distances than a few hundred metres (or yards) across a harbour to and from a moored yacht or on anything but flat water.

That is exactly the use I built the prams to do and one of the reasons why I haven't rigged them for sail.

They do tow reasonably well:

[YukonHarbor]

Those very short prams are a pain to row any longer distances than a few hundred metres (or yards) across a harbour to and from a moored yacht or on anything but flat water. Prams intended to be used on their own and in any sort of a seaway are generally much longer in relation to the beam. I think a 13 foot hull would be the minimum for the sort of use you think about.
With half inch thick softwood planking an a slightly thicker keel plank it should still be a fairly light boat. Around here 12 mm rather knotty spruce planking is typical for light boats like that. The knots are important as they keep the planks from splitting.

Something like this https://www.beckmanseka.se/

Very nice--so light looking just the way it floats so high!

heimlaga, thanks--I need to keep all these ideas in mind. Interesting about thin knotty spruce!

The length to rowing effort is something that's been nagging me a little. Even kids intuitively understand it--maybe just from swimming in the tub. That's why I'm looking for a sail to go along with it all. But the idea of just rowing comes back around often enough (but 10+ miles?). And also the idea of sea. When I was a young teenager it was fun to slap a twenty horse outboard on a 10 footer and fly around in 6 ft. white caps. But today a secure boat would be nice. And to be honest I'm not sure an 8 foot dinghy would be.

Anyway, I've been coming up short on exactly what design I want, and I may have to design from scratch. For that I need to find out the different ways to build WITHOUT FIBERGLASS, and basic boat and sail physics.

[Woxbox]

Yukon, The more you explain, the more I think the suggestion of a dory is the boat that fits the bill. The challenge would be building it as light as you want it. But it would feel secure in seas that might jangle the nerves in a little dinghy, and it would row nicely. It would also go together very quickly.

I don't know if Bolger's Gloucester Gull has been built in the traditional manner, but its rowing and seakeeping performance are highly regarded. You could calculate how many square feet of surface area the boat has, and then work up some weight estimates with different woods at different thicknesses.

[YukonHarbor]

Yukon, The more you explain, the more I think the suggestion of a dory is the boat that fits the bill. The challenge would be building it as light as you want it. But it would feel secure in seas that might jangle the nerves in a little dinghy, and it would row nicely. It would also go together very quickly.

I don't know if Bolger's Gloucester Gull has been built in the traditional manner, but its rowing and seakeeping performance are highly regarded. You could calculate how many square feet of surface area the boat has, and then work up some weight estimates with different woods at different thicknesses.

One nice thing about www.instantboats.com is they show a respectable portion of the plans. This “light dory” can be 82# built with 1/4” and spruce frames, or 124# built with 3/8” and a 1/2” bottom. The plans also mention 16’ plywood—a thing of the past?

[heimlaga]

If you want to sail a pram here is a prven design availabe for free:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a8kzg4oop...3YDLbvRDa?dl=0
I rebuilt one of theese for a customer last winter with new transoms and gunwales and a few new planks and a new outer keel. I think 14mm planking should be about right but the keel plank should be thicker.


However what you are really asking for seems to be a more rowable and more seaworthy boat. However you will then end up in slightly more demanding project. Either a dory (of which type I know absolutely nothing) or a round bottomed clinker built boat with a proper keel and proper stem. It is not technically that hard to hew a keel to shape. The difficulty is in getting the garboard angles just right and making the stem rebate join the T shaped keel in a good way.
I am not a boatbuilder in any way but I have repaired and rebuilt some old boats and remember where the difficulties were.

There is absolutely no need to design from scratch. Boats for rowing and sailing and easy beaching have been built by the hundreds of thousands for a full 1000 years. It is easier for a beginner to start with something that has already been tested and found o be good. Just be aware that some older traditional designs (around here we are talking boats built before 1900) have hewn garboards where the twisted part of each end is split and hewn out of a twisted log and then scarphed to a sawn board in the middle. Such a build is not suitable for a beginner. Steam bending is a lot easier.

[stromborg]

Available from our host through the Woodenboat Store (and no doubt elsewhere) this is well worth the cover price. I think it will help you refine what you are looking for and what it might take to get there.

[YukonHarbor]

If you want to sail a pram here is a prven design availabe for free:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a8kzg4oop...3YDLbvRDa?dl=0
I rebuilt one of theese for a customer last winter with new transoms and gunwales and a few new planks and a new outer keel. I think 14mm planking should be about right but the keel plank should be thicker.


However what you are really asking for seems to be a more rowable and more seaworthy boat. However you will then end up in slightly more demanding project. Either a dory (of which type I know absolutely nothing) or a round bottomed clinker built boat with a proper keel and proper stem. It is not technically that hard to hew a keel to shape. The difficulty is in getting the garboard angles just right and making the stem rebate join the T shaped keel in a good way.
I am not a boatbuilder in any way but I have repaired and rebuilt some old boats and remember where the difficulties were.

There is absolutely no need to design from scratch. Boats for rowing and sailing and easy beaching have been built by the hundreds of thousands for a full 1000 years. It is easier for a beginner to start with something that has already been tested and found o be good. Just be aware that some older traditional designs (around here we are talking boats built before 1900) have hewn garboards where the twisted part of each end is split and hewn out of a twisted log and then scarphed to a sawn board in the middle. Such a build is not suitable for a beginner. Steam bending is a lot easier.

Thanks heimlaga! It's not just the hull. I'm thinking about a lee-daggerboard design to improve over Bolger's clip-on thing. Canoe style leeboards are out because of the bracket. And also a sail rig that can be dropped and stowed inboard like a sprit rig. That has to be matched to the rest of the boat of course. Might sound overboard; but if all I wanted was to get on the water I could buy a plastic kayak from Walmart, or sit down at the dock waiving money. Difficulty is no problem.

[Breakaway]

The plans also mention 16’ plywood—a thing of the past?

One can get 12-foot plywood readily from specialty suppliers: https://www.roberts-plywood.com/marine-fir.html

16 foot might be special order.

In the end, you could scarf two eight-footers and end up with a +/- 15-1/2 foot sheet.

Kevin

[YukonHarbor]

Available from our host through the Woodenboat Store (and no doubt elsewhere) this is well worth the cover price. I think it will help you refine what you are looking for and what it might take to get there.

Thanks stromborg--added to my list! There's a couple other books I need to read also: Ted Brewer, Understanding Boat Design, and Emiliano Marino, The Sailmaker's Apprentice: A Guide for the Self-Reliant Sailor.

[YukonHarbor]

One can get 12-foot plywood readily from specialty suppliers: https://www.roberts-plywood.com/marine-fir.html

16 foot might be special order.

In the end, you could scarf two eight-footers and end up with a +/- 15-1/2 foot sheet.

Kevin

Noted! Thanks Keven! I saw a youtube about scarfing plywood by spacing stacked sheets to the angle you want the scarf, and then planing to feathered edges with the ply layers of all the sheets parallel. Simple. I always wondered how people could get a flat surface with such a small tool until I tried it. It almost seems magical how easy it is--flat tool/flat surface.

[stromborg]

Brewer's book is oriented towards bigger boats than I think we are talking about here though far be it for me to tell you to not add to your library (my personal collection can be measured in many linear feet). "Pete Culler on Wooden Boats" is more along the lines of what I think you are after.

If plywood has become an option, Steve Redmond's "Whisp" is worth looking at.

[YukonHarbor]

Brewer's book is oriented towards bigger boats than I think we are talking about here though far be it for me to tell you to not add to your library (my personal collection can be measured in many linear feet). "Pete Culler on Wooden Boats" is more along the lines of what I think you are after.

If plywood has become an option, Steve Redmond's "Whisp" is worth looking at.

In my ignorance I'm wondering why on earth the design needs strakes if they're put together flat before sided to the boat, what the heck is a Chesapeake-style cat sprit, and what kind of keel does it use? I guess you have to buy the plans to find out.

I don't mind plywood; it rates pretty high on the environmental friendliness index. As you know my peeve is the utter plastic encasement of all wooden parts that some construction methods demand. We already have micro plastics in every cell of our bodies and every square inch of our water bodies. It may be too late! All the plastic eating bacterium that are quickly evolving might expeditiously adapt to other readily available side dishes, like the people they're swimming around in. Really I think it's time to move on from all that.

[heimlaga]

Scarphes are generally quite easy to make using a hatchet followed by a hand plane. With a bit of training it isn't difficult anymore.

I know very little about plywood and hence I am not competent to discuss it. I have only noticed that it is very difficult to work compared to solid wood.

There are plenty of traditional boat designs that need neither leeboard nor centerboard to sail fairly well without a deep keel. It is all about the flare (or deadrise) of the first strake. If the first strake has a lot of deadrise along much of or all of it's lenght you get a sahrp bottom which bites into the water and has limited leeway even without a centerboard. Such a boat tracks well when rowing and rolls less when the wind and waves are from the side. It is generally easier to control and handle and more stable in short steep waves than a flat bottomed boat.
On the other hand it does not stay upright on a drying out tidal mooring and if you launch or land on a sandy beach you need to put some pieces of wood under the boat so the keel doesn't sink in. It also draws a bit more water than a flat bottomed boat and it often feels a bit crank on flat water.
Horses for courses.

Theese are boats built for steep choppy waves in crisscrossing wave patterns as waves from the open Baltic sea enters into the archipelago east and north of Stockholm. The transom is entirely above water which makes them reasonably easy to row and allows the bow to rise over the waves. The sharp bottom makes them sail well without any centerboard nor built down keel. In fact so well that is the early days of yacht racing local farmers and fishermen sometimes disturbed the race by passing by in their workboats at the same or even higher speed than the yachts of the time.
http://batbyggarkonst.se/storokor-oc...olms-skargard/

There are many ways of building a good boat.

[YukonHarbor]

If you don't mind I'd like to pass that link onto some friends. We're working on this boat:

IMG_0519.jpg

[Woxbox]

In my ignorance I'm wondering why on earth the design needs strakes if they're put together flat before sided to the boat, what the heck is a Chesapeake-style cat sprit, and what kind of keel does it use? I guess you have to buy the plans to find out.

...or ask an owner! I have a Whisp. The side panels are doubled to create that lap to add stiffness to a very lightly-built boat. The Chesapeake-style cat spirt is a sprit rig with a club on the end of it -- seen these days on the sailing log canoes and that's about it. This rig was not a hit with Whisp builders. I opted for a balanced lug, and later added a small mizzen.

The leeboard in the plans is the canoe type that utilizes a clamp-on thwart. The Bolgeresque clip-on type doesn't work well (I tried one) because you can't place it far enough forward for balance and still have it parallel to the keel. My third or fourth iteration was to add a conventional daggerboard, but it's off-center and canted so it exits through the side deck.

The Whisp is described by Redmond has halfway between a canoe and a skiff. That a good description, and that's what it feels like in the water. More stable than a canoe, but not by a lot. Much less stability than a skiff with a 4' wide bottom on it. (The Whisp bottom is just 28" across) But it does move very easily and is a pleasure to row. If you follow the plans, you'll have a very light boat --one in your target range.

My father-in-law built the hull in 1986. I inherited it and have been tinkering with it for the past 20 years. It now has side decks and flotation in the ends. But to your plastics concern, my boat has fiberglass over the bottom and up the sides about an inch. The rest is just epoxy-sealed plywood. It's 37 years old and has no structural issues at all. The plywood is solid throughout.

[stromborg]

I happen to have a Flapjack Skiff, the more portly sister to Whisp. At 125-ish pounds she is outside your desired weight but has proved to be a capable little thing though I do keep thinking about upgrading the sprit rig to something easier to deal with while underway. I've also rowed her the length of Eagle Harbor to set crab pots off Rockaway Beach a number of times, she might not be "fast" be she is quite utilitarian.

[heimlaga]

If you don't mind I'd like to pass that link onto some friends. We're working on this boat:

IMG_0519.jpg

I don't mind at all.
That is a mighty fine boat that you are rebuilding. Glad that she is brought back to life.