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Thread: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

  1. #1
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    Default Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    When did the world turn to extremes?

    Maybe my memory sucks... but I think it used to be that opinions about not just politics, but every other subject (science, morality, etc.) more or less represented a bell curve in this country. Most people clustered around the peak of the curve, and the fringes of the curve were pretty small; there was more or less a consensus about most issues. Sure, the majority of political thought was spread across a single axis, but the far fringes were nonconsequential, for the most part... and there was, if not broad agreement, then relatively minor differences between those close to the center. We toggled back and forth between liberal and conservative, but neither side was ever able to establish any long term dominance.

    But these days, it's not just politics that has diverged. Instead of a bell curve, the majority of thought looks more like a two-humped camel, with few, if any, truly in the valley in between.

    If not for the efforts of certain elements in our society, we'd all be conscious of the two century history of racial discrimination in America, for example. The civil rights battles of the 1960's should have been in our rear view mirror... and indeed, anyone who watches television would already have noticed that the split between black and white has collapsed, for most people; just consider the number of ads featuring interracial couples, for no particular purpose, other than the fact that the majority of people in this country recognize the normalization of love without racial divides.

    Yet, White Christian nationalism is on the rise, and the images of Charlottesville are still fresh in our minds... and racism sure seems to be on the rise, rationalized by people who otherwise claim the tenets and adherence to the Christian message. I forget which founding father expressed the idea that religion was responsible for most of the blood spilled through the centuries, despite what to whom many would think was the exact opposition to Christ's message.

    We see pretty much the same phenomenon with regard to global warming and climate change. With the overwhelming opinion of climatologists and other scientists who study the threat, we are giving deniers almost equal credence in the marketplace of ideas, with the very predictable support of those interests whose wealth, income, and influence enable the misinformation.

    The hate directed towards homosexuality and transgenderism is truly tragic... for the victims. The right wing continues to insist that there are only two sexes, male and female. Reality, however, shows a very different truth. For one thing, some babies are born with indistinct genitals. Before the days of DNA testing, this forced a truly heartbreaking decision on the parents of such children; how will they be raised? What will be their gender identity? Whether it ended up being advisable or not, surgical 'correction' was common... and might easily have been mistaken in some cases.

    Once DNA testing became available, we were still unable to make the kind of absolute determinations that the right wing demanded. I recently read a story about a beautiful young African-American woman, as lovely and feminine as any, who was presumed female, raised that way, and became a model. As a young adult, DNA testing showed that she was one of a rare number of people born, not with XX chromosomes (female) or XY chromosomes (male), but with an XXY chromosomal abnormality. In her case, her physiology expressed as female, despite the undeveloped and undescended testes seen on an MRI. Is she female, or male? Should we let politicians decide?

    Even for some whose genetic markers define a specific sex, there are a small percentage of people who are homosexual, or suffer from gender dysphoria. Both conditions are as old as recorded history, and the friezes from ancient Greece and Rome show, it was hardly uncommon. What makes these people become that way? There is convincing evidence that, in either the case of homosexuality or gender dysphoria, the cause is not genetic; studies of identical twins, where one is gay and the other not, are pretty convincing. What about how children are raised? It's common to find families with one of multiple siblings becoming either gay, or transgendered, despite being raised by the same parents in the same households.

    The gays have the advantage these days, since acceptance of homosexuality has had a big head start, in terms of the broad society being able to accept homosexuality, despite the fringe right gay hate. Transgenders have it much tougher, since politicians are more than willing to overrule science when it comes to what the appropriate, compassionate, and sensible treatment these people deserve. I am unwilling to define transgenderism as any sort of 'disease', but I read recently that even with appropriate treatment, the suicide rate among transgendered adults is something like 20X the rate of the population in general.

    In case no one noticed, authoritarianism is on the rise, globally, and it frightens me far more that the prospects of atomic warfare with either Russia or China. Under authoritarianism, people at the fringes of society, who might have found acceptance and sympathy in a more progressive political environment, suffer horribly. Misinformation, disinformation, fascist nationalism: these are the big threats. Most of us can recognize this, and fight back... with our vote, maybe with our money... but the marginalized people are too few in number, and too few in support, to defend themselves.

    I guess it's up to us.

    Sorry for the rambling rant, but it's been on my mind lately.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  2. #2
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Thanks for that, Norman.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    I never hear, or see, from people discussing the various labels, what criteria separate the groups, or uniquely describe them.
    To the extent that one claims membership in, or out of, a group, one gives up some of one's individuality.
    There is a gradient of sexual preference in humans from ~100% heterosexual, to ~100% homosexual. But in same sex situations, such as prisons, sexual preference is shown to be facultative, not obligatory. Any sport in a storm.
    Karyotyping, as mentioned in the OP example of the XXY individual, existed long before the molecular biology of DNA analysis.

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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    White Christian nationalism is ostensibly on the rise, but in actuality white Christian Nationalists are in steep decline.

    They are noisy, and there has been an explosion of ways for people of all persuasions to make their voices heard, and Trump helped that along, but the statistics I've seen reveal that people under 45 are leaving Evangelical upbringings and the associated churches in very substantial numbers at a great rate of speed.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    This book provides some insight regarding your initial question. Your post is an excellent example supporting the authors’ main hypothesis.

    The Myth of Left and Right: How the Political Spectrum Misleads and Harms America (STUDIES IN POSTWAR AMERICAN POLITCAL) https://a.co/d/0bQEaKn Myth of Left and Right: How the Political Spectrum Misleads and Harms America (STUDIES IN POSTWAR AMERICAN POLITCAL) https://a.co/d/0bQEaKn


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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Yeats:

    Turning and turning in the widening gyre
    The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

    Surely some revelation is at hand;
    Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
    Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
    The darkness drops again; but now I know
    That twenty centuries of stony sleep
    Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
    Gerard>
    Albuquerque, NM

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic, save the country.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    I don't think the answer is complex. Lying has become perfectly accepted by both politicians and 'NEWS".

    How could this not divide us?
    "Banning books in spite of the 1st amendment, but refusing to regulate guns in spite of "well regulated militia' being in the 2nd amendment makes no sense. Can't think of anyone ever shot by a book

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    When did the world turn to extremes?
    The French Revolution?

    Its a strange thing to contemplate.
    Reading your OP Norm it strikes me that maybe authoritarianism is actually dying and we're hearing the death roars? Well, not really, but i wonder.

    You mention civil rights, was it less authoritarian in the 40's and 50's when in certain parts of your country you might get away with burning a person alive because their skin was the 'right' colour?
    Was it less authoritarian when gays were considered freaks and could be beaten, humiliated and even killed with impunity.
    Less authoritarian when teachers could beat kids, child abuse was brushed under the carpet?
    Less authoritarian when a man could beat his wife cause she burnt the toast?

    I don't hear climate deniers anymore. Here in the rest of the western world I think that voice is dead and done. Delay is the new deny - those who once denied now try to delay or prevent action, usually because of the cost (if it wasn't so tragic you'd laugh). But action is closer not further away.

    I think you've been doom-scrolling a bit maybe mate - give yourself a break. Seek out some happy stories.
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    When did the world turn to extremes?
    .
    I think it was about 2016!
    At least in ways I've never seen.

    We All have more in common than what separates us!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    That'd be a "Bactrian camel".

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    The French Revolution?

    Its a strange thing to contemplate.
    Reading your OP Norm it strikes me that maybe authoritarianism is actually dying and we're hearing the death roars? Well, not really, but i wonder.

    You mention civil rights, was it less authoritarian in the 40's and 50's when in certain parts of your country you might get away with burning a person alive because their skin was the 'right' colour?
    Was it less authoritarian when gays were considered freaks and could be beaten, humiliated and even killed with impunity.
    Less authoritarian when teachers could beat kids, child abuse was brushed under the carpet?
    Less authoritarian when a man could beat his wife cause she burnt the toast?

    I don't hear climate deniers anymore. Here in the rest of the western world I think that voice is dead and done. Delay is the new deny - those who once denied now try to delay or prevent action, usually because of the cost (if it wasn't so tragic you'd laugh). But action is closer not further away.

    I think you've been doom-scrolling a bit maybe mate - give yourself a break. Seek out some happy stories.
    I think the point I was trying to make was that after several decades of the decline of the authoritarianism in the US, it’s on the rise again. I can’t speak for the sociopolitical history of AUS, but surely, in the 50’s in the US, radical right wing governors and other politicians were far more of a curiosity, than they were a threat. Even the most popular of them, like Goldwater, had little or no chance to actually be elected President… and the conservative Presidents who did manage to get elected would be considered leftists, by many of today’s radical right.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  12. #12
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Twas Goldwater who told Nixon, the jig is up, enough of your authoritarianism.
    Long live the rights of man.

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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Be woke or be shunned, submit to our power. The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy by Sir Issac Newton is a rape manual.
    Long live the rights of man.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    It’ll all change once Mars invades.

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    Default Re: Black and white, red and blue, male and female

    Data is a curse.

    In the past, we only had personal experience - the guy next door looked like us and thought like us.

    Now, we have data and know more about strangers than we are comfortable with. Those strangers are strange. Most of them do not share our thoughts. Most of them don't look like us.
    Life is complex.

  16. #16
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    The type of idealogical tribalism demonstrated by your post is exactly why things are the way they are. You are mischaracterizing the reasons others disagree with positions on issues your tribe, and by extension you, have adopted. This serves no purpose other than gaining you sought after affirmation from your fellow tribe members. I suppose in that regard your post has served its purpose.


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