20 yrs Iraq War

[LeeG]

20 yrs is a chunk of time. 1974 to 1994 was a significant chunk for me. 2003 to 2023 wasn’t quick but either way both wars never touched me directly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIWfH3iEgXU

[Osborne Russell]

Iraq was huge. Americans, if they think about it at all, think of it as a mis-step, a miscalculation, not showing any fundamental defect of understanding. On the contrary, it was a huge boost to the "my country, right or wrong" attitude. That's how Reds can go from rah rah, to denial, to what a stupid idea, to forgetting, without a twinge of shame.

It brought "cognitive dissonance" into the conversation. Something much worse than merely being uninformed or misinformed.

Getting to be about time for another Iraq or Vietnam.

[LeeG]

Iraq was huge. Americans, if they think about it at all, think of it as a mis-step, a miscalculation, not showing any fundamental defect of understanding. On the contrary, it was a huge boost to the "my country, right or wrong" attitude. That's how Reds can go from rah rah, to denial, to what a stupid idea, to forgetting, without a twinge of shame.

It brought "cognitive dissonance" into the conversation. Something much worse than merely being uninformed or misinformed.

Getting to be about time for another Iraq or Vietnam.

Ukraine will keep the MIC happy, the GWOT continues. I wonder if the deep state has the confidence to throw another country against the wall.

[skuthorp]

America may need a bigger war against another real or imagined threat to 'unite' the country………………. But nukes make a victory in such a war as moot……………….

[AndyG]

My 1st political march was February 15th, 2003. It was my fortieth birthday.

It was huge in Glasgow, larger in London. Easily a million-plus across the UK got off their backsides to protest.

We weren't duped about that war by our political masters - we saw the truth and were, subsequently, just ignored.





And, so, here we are. Lied to daily. It's just the way it is today. £11k a year worse off than in 2012. Being led into Fascism As The New Normal by our political "masters".

Sh@t upon. Blair, Boris, the lot of them: total contempt for their employers, the people.

Andy, rather angry.

[John Smith]

I go back to these words:

"If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies[with inspectors], disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise."

Hans Blix reported that as of Nov. 27, 2002 Saddam had caved and UN weapons inspectors needed only time to find/destroy any WMD's Iraq had. It was G.W. Bush who denied them that time. He not only prevented weapons inspectors from doing their job but, by doing so, limited the coalition he could put together.

Let us also remember how we legalized torture, and there are STILL people held at GITMO who have NOT been charged with anything.

[LeeG]

Andy, what got me at the time was how fundamentally wrong the threat from Iraq was being described. I had a thing about nuclear weapons since middle school. I read every Scientific American magazine my dad got every month and consumed every article about nuclear weapons. So when a vague general term like WMD is used to describe an existential threat it made no effing sense. We knew how many ICBMs Russia had. We knew how many bombers they had. Now we weren’t talking about specific weapons or capabilities but a vague category that encompasses chemical, biological and anything associated with the word “nuclear”. We had programs going back decades facillitating nuclear power generation with Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia but now that technology is indistinguishable from weapons development in 2002. Between our Oklahoma City bombing, 9/11, sarin attacks in Japan and the anthrax mailings in 2002 nearly anything can get called a WMD. But of course not squadrons of B52 and B1 dropping 1000’s of tons of bombs, that’s not a WMD.

Then I started reading and similar dumb ass associative reasoning was going on erasing distinctions between a Stalinist dictator like Saddam and militant jihadi like Al Qaeda.

It’s one thing to rally folks around the flag and cheer for the home team for mom and apple pie but this was beyond dumbing down the message for popular consumption it was a dumb message like selling toothpaste for a sexier smile or putting a tiger in your tank with Esso gasoline. America is horrifically dumb and the message worked, just like TFG works for evangelical Christians.

[LeeG]

I go back to these words:

"If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies[with inspectors], disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise."

Hans Blix reported that as of Nov. 27, 2002 Saddam had caved and UN weapons inspectors needed only time to find/destroy any WMD's Iraq had. It was G.W. Bush who denied them that time. He not only prevented weapons inspectors from doing their job but, by doing so, limited the coalition he could put together.

Let us also remember how we legalized torture, and there are STILL people held at GITMO who have NOT been charged with anything.

And US special forces were already in Iraq preparing the battlefield. Troops and material were being massed in Kuwait. The UN inspectors were a minor obstacle easily undermined and ignored. GW’s resolution was as sincere as Putin’s liberating Ukraine from Nazis. Congress had neutered itself long ago in Vietnam leaving about as many unelected officials putting the Iraq invasion into reality as Al Qaeda jihadi planed and committed the 9/11 attacks.

[skuthorp]

I don't think I need to post Goring's views on the subject again………….

[McMike]

My 1st political march was February 15th, 2003. It was my fortieth birthday.

It was huge in Glasgow, larger in London. Easily a million-plus across the UK got off their backsides to protest.

We weren't duped about that war by our political masters - we saw the truth and were, subsequently, just ignored.





And, so, here we are. Lied to daily. It's just the way it is today. £11k a year worse off than in 2012. Being led into Fascism As The New Normal by our political "masters".

Sh@t upon. Blair, Boris, the lot of them: total contempt for their employers, the people.

Andy, rather angry.

^This exactly. Except, the contempt is the people's fault.

[AndyG]

It’s one thing to rally folks around the flag and cheer for the home team for mom and apple pie but this was beyond dumbing down the message for popular consumption it was a dumb message like selling toothpaste for a sexier smile or putting a tiger in your tank with Esso gasoline. America is horrifically dumb and the message worked, just like TFG works for evangelical Christians.

Utterly this. And so ISIS, and Afghanistan, and etc.; and here, a generation later, is where we are.

What a freaking, post-Soviet, WASTE.

...The planet deserved better.

Andy

[skuthorp]

A lot of people with capital and the MIC did very well out of the Soviet Union, and had to replace it with something…..anything……..

[sandtown]

not showing any fundamental defect of understanding..

Disagree - our corporate overlords knew exactly what they were doing.

They understood.

[Johan R]

Given the historical data from Fallujah and birth defects from depleted uranium munitions, I find it incredulous that the UK is advertising the fact they will be sending DUM to Ukraine, seeing it will be used "in" Ukraine, and hence a problem for thousands of years to come.

[skuthorp]

Stupid decision, and I'm surprised Ukraine accepted it.
BTW, does depleted uranium ammo have a use by date?

[Gerarddm]

Iraq and the financial meltdown are why Dubya is the second worst president, after Drumph.

#14: I was surprised by this. I thought NATO had long switched over to tungsten penetrators for tank rounds.

[LeeG]

Utterly this. And so ISIS, and Afghanistan, and etc.; and here, a generation later, is where we are.

What a freaking, post-Soviet, WASTE.

...The planet deserved better.

Andy

In the back of my head is a sense my parents would not approve. A sense of shame. A colossal eff up where our post WWII dominance was used…to dominate the less powerful while calling them evil.

[Osborne Russell]

Ukraine will keep the MIC happy, the GWOT continues. I wonder if the deep state has the confidence to throw another country against the wall.

I don't know about the deep state part. Bright-eyed bushy-tailed America will do it cheerfully.

[Osborne Russell]

Disagree - our corporate overlords knew exactly what they were doing.

They understood.

What I meant was, Americans go about their lives not greatly bothered by America's crimes in Iraq. They will never take up, let alone answer the question: was there a fundamental defect in our understanding? Maybe in a hundred years. Not now.

I feel my country was betrayed, and by their attitude, they continue to betray it. Same as the time before, and the time before that.

Traveling abroad and speaking to foreign visitors here, I finally settled on this formulation: "Not every American thought the invasion of Iraq was a good idea." Trying to keep a light-hearted tone. It worked, I guess. Except my heart is not light. It cost a lot to maintain the posture. A light-hearted apology is actually a ghastly thing, and you have to do it repeatedly. Life sentence.

[LeeG]

Osborne, there’s a book and a few magazine articles describing the context that led to Abu Ghraib. It’s bizarre and totally reflects the self delusion required to justify the invasion. Conflating Iraq with Al Qaeda turned Iraqis into terrorists. Denying the need for post invasion security reduced the troops needed to provide security to match the delusion the task of regime change would be low. $50-$80 Billion according to General Wolfowitz. A few months, six max according to General Rumsfeld.
Huge numbers of Iraqis were captured and sent to overburdened prisons for sorting into “good”/“bad” prisoners. Which of course required finding bad Iraqis and fighters who matched the description of terrorist. Which required enhanced interrogation to create the terrorists there.
A real zinger was a callout from the US gov’t to private prison “industry” officials in the US to oversee design and consteuction of prisons in Iraq based on US civilian guard to prisoner ratios in a functioning US economy. As opposed to military prisons in Iraq undergoing a civil war and power vacuum. The US military knows all this stuff, how many guards are needed per prisoner in a war is much higher. They were handed a five lb bag and twenty lbs of sh!t to fill it with.

[Osborne Russell]

Do you know what it takes to go around apologizing for your country, what's done by your S head government, to the yawping of your S head fellow citizens, and try to smile doing it? It costs something every time. Yet apologies are due.

[skuthorp]

Consequences are due, but of course precedent…………..

[sandtown]

Osborne, there’s a book and a few magazine articles describing the context that led to Abu Ghraib..

The future leaders of what would become ISIS met in those prisons.