How did Corned Beef (and cabbage) become an Irish Tradition?

[Lew Barrett]

Tonight, being St. Patrick's Day, our meal is the traditional one eaten by Jews of Irish descent or those like me with Irish surnames that were gifted to their progenitors when passing through Ellis Island. The traditional corned beets meal is ancient, harking back to the earliest days of the settlement of the Pale. The dish became an Irish adaptation but mutated in the manner of such things as a result of a sloppy translation of the recipe from Yiddish to English to Erse. It is said that the translation was accomplished by an Irish monk deep in his cups and dulled by consuming too much mead. This perhaps explains the variation from the original but nobody knows for sure exactly how corned beets and cabbage became corned beef and cabbage. By the way, both dishes were known to the Jews long before anybody spoke Erse. But enough history, behold the dish that started it all!

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Corned Beets and Cabbage, somehow became corned beef and cabbage. We're having the original tonight.

Speaking to Irish folk everywhere, I say you're welcome to our dish, and our hospitality even if you got the recipe wrong! Wanna get rid of the snakes? Feed them borscht!
Happy SPD!

Oh yeah....we're the inventors of corned beef too, but we don't need a special day to grab a Reuben.

[LOKI]

On a business trip to Montreal , Canada, I was fortunate enough to visit Dunns. A plate of corned beef, cabbage, and I swear a loaf of rye bread, two tubs of butters. I'm not a big guy but I was starving, I'm sorry to say that I didn't make that much of a dent in the plate ! I will say that I slept very well that night, nowadays I'd be up all night with the burps and indigestion!!

[Joe (SoCal)]

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crock pot corn beef & cabbage with fresh herbs, potatoes, carrots all cooked in 2 pints of Guinness

[Mrleft88]

What a waste of good Mother's milk! Use 1/2 pint of Guinness, and some swill for the rest.... Smithwick's, or Harp will do just fine. The other pint and a half are used to temper the taste buds while cooking.... You might want a few more pints, just in case, donchaknow.
(And purple cabbage is blasphemy!)

[gypsie]

Maybe it was just my family, but i never heard of corned beef or beets being had on Paddy's day.
If we were to have cabbage it was almost exclusively with bacon, or vegetarian. The broth from cabbage and bacon boiled together is the most delicious thing on the planet.

I can't remember any one dish being a Paddy's day dish. The day generally consisted of mass first thing, the Paddy's day parade. About lunch time that would lead into the pub (pubs are family affairs in Ireland, more sitting room than sports bar). 3 or 4 scoops and home for a snooze. Dinner later that night of whatever whoever cooked could muster.

The Paddy's day parade is where the focus is. Community groups and the odd marching band. Country town parades were the best. Farmers with tractors pulling random floats about random stuff wrapped in last years Christmas decorations. Always funny. Then pub and so forth.

[gypsie]

What is a beet anyway? A turnip?
The only beetroot I ever saw was pickled in a jar. Strictly summer salad fare.

[Joe (SoCal)]

What a waste of good Mother's milk! Use 1/2 pint of Guinness, and some swill for the rest.... Smithwick's, or Harp will do just fine. The other pint and a half are used to temper the taste buds while cooking.... You might want a few more pints, just in case, donchaknow.
(And purple cabbage is blasphemy!)

Thats all they had I looked at two supermarkets for traditional green & white cabbage Oh and I bought two 6 packs of Guinness so I'm good

And I've already had a pint at the local Irish pub and a bourbon old fashion with my buddy who moved here from Boston.

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Corned beef is basically Jewish Brisket served with potatoes , carrots and cabbage.

Its coming out good

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[gypsie]

2 six packs of Guinness.
But what about tonight?

[Lew Barrett]

From your replies I suspect my word play and feeble attempts at irony have failed. For the record, there is no known relationship between borscht and corned beef and cabbage except they are both comfort food treasures from the old countries.

Anybody actually know how C&C became associated with St. Patty? I’m with Joe in that I anssociate brisket with Jewish cooking. And don’t forget the potatoes.

[Joe (SoCal)]

From your replies I suspect my word play and feeble attempts at irony have failed. For the record, there is no known relationship between borscht and corned beef and cabbage except they are both comfort food treasures from the old countries.

Anybody actually know how C&C became associated with St. Patty? I’m with Joe in that I anssociate brisket with Jewish cooking. And don’t forget the potatoes.

How C&C became associated with St. Patty? It's a similar story as to how Brisket & Pastrami became part of Jewish culture. It's a cheep end cut of beef for poor immigrants to make their own. Both the Irish and the Jews when they arrived in NYC they were persecuted and lived in there respective ghettoes. They made due with a cut of meat that most people would consider tough and fatty. The Irish boiled it down added cabbage, potatoes carrots and Guinness . The Jews added soft seeded rye bread, sauerkraut (cabbage), potato latkas, and delicious Dr. Browns Cel-Ray Soda

So the Irish and the Jews are kinda mishpucha on this day

[Rumars]

Tonight, being St. Patrick's Day, our meal is the traditional one eaten by Jews of Irish descent or those like me with Irish surnames that were gifted to their progenitors when passing through Ellis Island. The traditional corned beets meal is ancient, harking back to the earliest days of the settlement of the Pale. The dish became an Irish adaptation but mutated in the manner of such things as a result of a sloppy translation of the recipe from Yiddish to English to Erse. It is said that the translation was accomplished by an Irish monk deep in his cups and dulled by consuming too much mead. This perhaps explains the variation from the original but nobody knows for sure exactly how corned beets and cabbage became corned beef and cabbage. By the way, both dishes were known to the Jews long before anybody spoke Erse. But enough history, behold the dish that started it all!

IMG_1300.jpg

Corned Beets and Cabbage, somehow became corned beef and cabbage. We're having the original tonight.

Speaking to Irish folk everywhere, I say you're welcome to our dish, and our hospitality even if you got the recipe wrong! Wanna get rid of the snakes? Feed them borscht!
Happy SPD!

Oh yeah....we're the inventors of corned beef too, but we don't need a special day to grab a Reuben.

I recommend you get of the ale and urban myths. First, corned beef and cabbage is only known in the US, it's about as traditional irish as borsht. Second, borsht has nothing to do with the dish, no drunk monk translated anything, ever. Third, corned beef and borsht are definitely not jewish inventions.

If you actually want to know how the dish came about, read this: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-...irish-2839144/

P.S. I now read it was intended as a parody. I'll go get myself some beer, I'm to serious.

[rbgarr]

Had 'Bangers and Mash' for lunch and dinner. "MM-MMM, good." And my daughter learned to pour Guinness from a master when she was in Ireland:
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[elf]

Both meals are wonderful, but Lew, where's the sour cream?

[WI-Tom]

From your replies I suspect my word play and feeble attempts at irony have failed.

I got it. Didn't everyone? (Apparently not).

Tom

[The Q]

Over this side of the pond the traditional Irish dish is colcannon, originally that would have been the whole meal. Nowadays it's accompanied by a meat. It particularly goes well with an Irish stew made with Guinness, but Irish stew in days gone by was a wealthy persons meal.

[David W Pratt]

Doesn't a Reuben mix meat and dairy?

[gypsie]

It's pretty cool the way Paddy's day is embraced. Even if it does involve alien dishes.

[Lew Barrett]

Both meals are wonderful, but Lew, where's the sour cream?

Actually the traditional garnish is smetana, a richer and more natural version of cultured dairy resembling crème fresh more than American sour cream. Borscht is but a vehicle for the sour cream in my world. What you see in my grab is the product before service, just as it was born in the pot. I serve it with sour cream of course, but only add the dairy after ladling into individual bowls. Also, real babushka borscht requires kvas, a fermented vegetable product made from last week’s borscht. Making a kvas base is well beyond my patience and pre planning capabilities. My borscht is less earthy as a result of my sloth.

[Lew Barrett]

Doesn't a Reuben mix meat and dairy?

You could say a Reuben is inspired by eastern European Jewish cuisine but I read you. It isn’t kosher but then neither am I.

[Lew Barrett]

I got it. Didn't everyone? (Apparently not).

Tom

It’s surprising how seriously my imaginary origin story can appear to some. People are just too cereal these days.I guess corned beef and cabbage should not be taken lightly. This is heavy duty fare!

[Paul Pless]

taking borscht to the next level

[Lew Barrett]

How C&C became associated with St. Patty? It's a similar story as to how Brisket & Pastrami became part of Jewish culture. It's a cheep end cut of beef for poor immigrants to make their own. Both the Irish and the Jews when they arrived in NYC they were persecuted and lived in there respective ghettoes. They made due with a cut of meat that most people would consider tough and fatty. The Irish boiled it down added cabbage, potatoes carrots and Guinness . The Jews added soft seeded rye bread, sauerkraut (cabbage), potato latkas, and delicious Dr. Browns Cel-Ray Soda

So the Irish and the Jews are kinda mishpucha on this day

Joe! Well, there once was a Jewish Lord Mayor of Dublin. It was a celebrated item when he was elected. But I think most Jews with Irish surnames never actually set foot in Ireland. Legend has it my last name was unceremoniously dumped on the family by an immigration official who couldn’t get his lips around the original. He must have been dim witted because it wasn’t that hard to pronounce. I’m cool with it. After all, we shared a common immigrant experience and both cultures celebrate brisket! Enough common ground for anybody!

[WI-Tom]

But Catholics can't eat Reuben sandwiches if St. Patrick's Day falls on a Friday as it did this year, right? What's the no-meat alternative to a Reuben?

Tom

[Paul Pless]

wait till saturday and have a proper reuben?

[Nicholas Carey]

On a related note. . . . A song from 1912: "If It Wasn't For the Irish and the Jews", here performed by Mick Maloney on his album of the same name —

https://store.compassrecords.com/pro...h-and-the-jews

Musician, singer, anthropologist and musical historian Mick Moloney celebrates the joyous and creative era in American popular song from the early 1890’s to the end of vaudeville and the start of the Great Depression on his new release If It Wasn’t For the Irish and the Jews. Each of the album’s 14 tracks is notable for having been created in a collaboration between Irish and Jewish lyricists and composers. Irish/Jewish Tin Pan Alley collaborations were commonplace in the heyday of vaudeville and Tin Pan Alley, and, though there were doubtless the usual business break-ups and make-ups, these collaborations represent a charming story of decades of good natured ethnic flux, competition, and cooperation which left a lasting imprint on the history of American popular music. The end result is a fascinating and highly entertaining look at a historically critical point in American music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIU7FsY6Nkc

If It Wasn't For the Irish and the Jews

Music by Jean Schwartz. Lyrics by William Jerome.

I just returned from Europe. I've seen London and
Paree, and I'm glad to get back home to Yankee land!

In fact, the little U.S.A. looks better now to me.
It's the real place for the real folks — understand?

But still I often sit and think what would this country
be if we hadn't men like Rosenstein and Hughes.

You'd surely have a kingdom. There'd be no
democracy if it wasn't for the Irish and the Jews.

What would this great Yankee nation really,
really ever do if it wasn't for a Levy, a
Monahan, or Donahue?

Where would we get our policemen?
Why, Uncle Sam would have the blues!

Without the Pats and Isadores you'd have
no big department stores if it wasn't
for the Irish and the Jews.

You all know Charlie Frohman and his brother Dan, of
course. How often have you laughed at Louie Mann?

And Lew and Joe who used to run the Little Music
Hall —and that wonder, clever George M. Cohan!

Dave Warfield, Peter Daly, Charlie Ross, and Andrew
Mack — for years and years they drove away the blues.

Where would you get your actors from--I'd really like
to know — if it wasn't for the Irish and the Jews?

What would you do for amusement? There would
be no place to go if it wasn't for the Shuberts,
Frank McKee, and Marcus Loew!

K. and E. and Billy Brady Hammerstein I musn't lose!

I once heard Dave Belasco say, "You
couldn't stage a play today if it wasn't for
the Irish and the Jews!"

Talk about a combination
Hear my words and make a note
On St. Patrick's day Rosinsky
Pins a shamrock on his coat.

There's a sympathetic feeling
Between the Blooms and McAdoos.

Why Tammany would surely fall.
There'd really be no Hall at all —
If it wasn't for the Irish and the Jews.

[rbgarr]

When will there be a specialty food for Mexican-American Day? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evUWersr7pc

[Chip-skiff]

I read somewhere that the rural and less-fortunate Irish seldom ate beef, as it was too costly and also mostly exported to England by the landowners. Lacking refrigeration, salting and spicing helped to preserve it. But the scarcity and the association with the upper classes made it a desired dish for celebrations.

The curing process is virtually the same as that for Jewish pastrami, which after curing is rolled in cracked black pepper and coriander seed, and then smoked. Here's pastrami (beef round rather than brisket) ready for the smoker:



Montreal Smoked Meat is similar, although it uses the entire brisket, sometimes with cloves and bay leaf added to the cure. After smoking it is steamed to tenderness before slicing and serving.

[LeeG]

What is a beet anyway? A turnip?
The only beetroot I ever saw was pickled in a jar. Strictly summer salad fare.

We’re working through a 40 lb bag. Lots of pink pee in the toilet.

[Chip-skiff]

In New Zealand, pickled beetroot is served on burgers.

[Mrleft88]

See... Now I have a problem with the whole idea of "Brisket".
I somehow envision a Mohel cutting the meat from the bovine's chest, and saying some words over it before it's pickled for 3 weeks and then boiled, or smoked for the family to enjoy....
That said, my all time favorite sandwich is a Reuben made with both corned beef, and pastrami....

[Nicholas Carey]

I read somewhere that the rural and less-fortunate Irish seldom ate beef, as it was too costly and also mostly exported to England by the landowners. Lacking refrigeration, salting and spicing helped to preserve it. But the scarcity and the association with the upper classes made it a desired dish for celebrations.

Chicken and beef have always been too valuable as sources of eggs and milk/butter/cheese to slaughter for eating. The rich could afford chicken and beef. Everybody else ate chicken and beef only when they got slaughtered for a special occasion like a wedding, and when a chicken or cow got old and stopped laying or giving milk.

The rise of beef cattle ranching in the American West and the subsequent advent of industrial stockyards and slaughterhouses made beef more affordable starting in the last couple decades of the 19th century.

[Nicholas Carey]

In New Zealand, pickled beetroot is served on burgers.

I only know pickled beets as a Lebanese dish. You cut small white turnips and beets into batons and salt-ferment them with garlic and peppercorns, maybe a bay leaf and some sugar (depending on how sweet the veggies are) as you might kosher dill pickles.

The turnips turn a brilliant neon fuchsia color.

Traditional Lebanese breakfast - pita bread, cheese, and pickles washed down with Arabic/Turkish coffee.

[John Meachen]

I once spent an evening with some friends in a Turkish restaurant in the Netherlands.One of the offerings was a purple paste that looked very far from anything I had ever seen before.It turned our to be beetroot and mayonnaise that had been in a blender and actually tasted quite good.Oddly enough,a few years later I was dining in Amsterdam and again beetroot featured,but this time it came in the form of thin slices on pieces of raw herring,and again it was rather good.

[George Jung]

But Catholics can't eat Reuben sandwiches if St. Patrick's Day falls on a Friday as it did this year, right? What's the no-meat alternative to a Reuben?

Tom

Hmmm... that'd call for 'fish', and of course, 'suffering'.

Maybe lutefisk and lefse?

[Breakaway]

But Catholics can't eat Reuben sandwiches if St. Patrick's Day falls on a Friday as it did this year, right? What's the no-meat alternative to a Reuben?

Tom

The bishops of most Dioceses pronounced a special dispensation for that obligation. At least they did here.

Kevin


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