Well Regulated Militia

[SKIP KILPATRICK]

Ran past this element of the North Carolina Army National Guard on my cannonball run the other week. They were on I-85 just south of the Stateline. I guess they were on their way home from maneuvers at one of the Three training forts in Virginia: Picket, A.P. Hill or Lee.

All three forts will receive a name change later this year as our country sheds its "Lost Cause" legacy.

[Nicholas Carey]

The summer we were ramping up for Bush War I in Kuwait, in the early '90s, I was living in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

It was pretty apparent something was going to happen well before the public sabre-rattling started. Every day for weeks, there were multiple flights of attack (and other) helicopters flying south over A2 from Grayling (giant National Guard base). And convoy after convoy heading south on US 23. Heading, I'm sure, for Hampton Roads and thence to Kuwait.

[LOKI]

Your country's military capabilities always amazed me. On a business trip I landed in Minneapolis 20 years ago, and saw at the airport, between air force and national guard, more Hercules aircraft than Canada had total... Sure glad we're friends

[TerryLL]

I spent many years at Ft. Lewis, now Joint Base Lewis McChord. In fact I was born there at Madigan Army Medical Center. Military convoys were a common sight. Pretty amazing experience for a 10-year-old to see a herd of tanks trucking down a dirt road as we motored down the adjacent asphalt in our '53 Plymouth. POS car, BTW.

[Nicholas Carey]

Your country's military capabilities always amazed me. On a business trip I landed in Minneapolis 20 years ago, and saw at the airport, between air force and national guard, more Hercules aircraft than Canada had total... Sure glad we're friends

For [Cold War] decades, I believe the planning basis was that we needed to have the capability to fight two simultaneous multi-theatre wars.

And yes, a little nuts.

[Osborne Russell]

Farewell to Old Virginny

[robm]

Forty years ago, hitch hiking around Austria, I was picked up by a crazy German guy in a clapped-out Ford Fiesta (Made in Germany, of course! He was proud of this fact). It was a weekend, and the army and reserves were out in force, with a huge, long convoy on a two-lane twisty highway. The convoy was much longer and much denser than the one Skip showed, more vehicles and going much slower. The nutter pulled out and did his best to pass the entire Austrian army! He eventually got ahead of the pack, with me praying for dear life every time he pulled out to pass on a blind corner, and then did his best to butt back in between when traffic appeared in the opposite lane. He eventually pulled off the main road, to take a back road back into Germany on his way to Munich. He said my best bet was to come with him, he would put me on the autobahn so I could get back in to Austria much faster! Having already come into Austria on that road, I knew he knew nothing about hitch hiking, and was very glad indeed to get out of that car, and get picked up by a lovely young woman in a beautiful new 2CV.

Just my experience with military convoys. Not good. Except for getting out alive, and getting into the next car!

A dumb question about the OP: Why are so many of those flatdecks empty?

[David W Pratt]

The interstate system doing what it was meant to do.

[J.Madison]

Having military bases named for the generals who fought in open war against that military is a little weird. Like having a US naval base named for Admiral Yamamoto.

[CWSmith]

We talk a lot about how the 2nd Amendment recognizes a militia, but has been turned into individual rights to carry a gun.

That phrase "well regulated" really resonated with me today. Doesn't that mean laws and government oversight?

[Paul Pless]

shall not be infringed, bitches

[John Smith]

We talk a lot about how the 2nd Amendment recognizes a militia, but has been turned into individual rights to carry a gun.

That phrase "well regulated" really resonated with me today. Doesn't that mean laws and government oversight?

That part of the 2nd is seldom mentioned. The second clause says 'keep' not 'own' and 'arms' not 'guns'. Ponder what 'arms' means today. Ponder what 'keep' meant: Government provided 'arms' to militia members who kept them so they'd be ready quickly, as opposed to having to go somewhere to get them when needed.

That's also language in Art 1, Sec 8 referencing the militia that seems totally ignored.

As to the names of forts, I don't see this as a big deal. Of course, I'm the non believer who likes Christmas carols. Part of the right to free speech is that some of that speech is apt to offend some. Is there a right to never be offended by speech?

[CWSmith]

shall not be infringed, bitches

No one is threatening to disband the National Guard.

[Paul Pless]

That part of the 2nd is seldom mentioned.

seldom mentioned??? gun grabbers bring that phrase up every frikkin day. . .

its irrelevant

you know why it's irrelevant? the constitution, the entirety of the constitution, means whatever the courts say it means

[John Smith]

seldom mentioned??? gun grabbers bring that phrase up every frikkin day. . .

its irrelevant

you know why it's irrelevant? the constitution, the entirety of the constitution, means whatever the courts say it means

That is, sadly, true. They'd decided 'keep' means 'own', and they've ignored the well-regulated part, and apparently haven't even read Art. 1 Sect 8

[ron ll]

I spent many years at Ft. Lewis, now Joint Base Lewis McChord. In fact I was born there at Madigan Army Medical Center. Military convoys were a common sight. Pretty amazing experience for a 10-year-old to see a herd of tanks trucking down a dirt road as we motored down the adjacent asphalt in our '53 Plymouth. POS car, BTW.

Brings back memories. My older sister’s first was born at Madigan while her husband was at Fort Lewis and the convoys were definitely a common sight on Hwy 99 before I-5. My dad did occasional carpentry work at the fort and I had a summer job painting barracks there.

[David W Pratt]

The story goes that Yamamoto advised against invading the continental US.

[LeeG]

For [Cold War] decades, I believe the planning basis was that we needed to have the capability to fight two simultaneous multi-theatre wars.

And yes, a little nuts.

So we could screw up simultaneously violating sovereign countries!

[TerryLL]

seldom mentioned??? gun grabbers bring that phrase up every frikkin day. . .

its irrelevant

you know why it's irrelevant? the constitution, the entirety of the constitution, means whatever the courts say it means

Now, now, Pless, don't get your dander up. The gun grabbers will wax on forever about what the Constitution meant back then and what it means today. Scalia made it pretty clear in Heller, and Thomas expanded the ruling further in the Bruen decision. Those two decisions define the Second Amendment today. End of story.

However, two back-to-back SCOTUS decisions will never deter the anti-gun states from passing whatever unconstitutional blather they can dream up.

[Jimmy W]

My great grandfather married a Bragg, she was distantly related to Braxton Bragg that Fort Bragg is named for. It seems that General Bragg wasn't very good at winning battles, but Jeff Davis liked him.

There is a famous, apocryphal story, included in Ulysses S. Grant's memoirs, about Bragg as a company commander at a frontier post where he also served as quartermaster. He submitted a requisition for supplies for his company, then as quartermaster declined to fill it. As company commander, he resubmitted the requisition, giving additional reasons for his requirements, but as the quartermaster he denied the request again. Realizing that he was at a personal impasse, he referred the matter to the post commandant, who exclaimed, "My God, Mr. Bragg, you have quarreled with every officer in the army, and now you are quarreling with yourself!"

Fort Bragg will be renamed Fort Liberty in June.

[BrianW]

fueltruckfun1.jpg

US Army... dragging a JP8 fuel line and nozzle down the Delta Ramp at FOB Fenty (Jalalabad) back around 2013.

Love the troops, having been one before, but they often cracked me up.

[BrianW]

We talk a lot about how the 2nd Amendment recognizes a militia...

Our founding fathers, having just beat the British, realized the need for a militia to protect the newly founded country against any another militia that threatened it. Then realized that a militia such as the one from Britain, was a bad thing and it was beaten by armed US citizens. Their answer was that in light of a needed militia to protect itself from foreign threats, the citizens of this country needed the protected right to defend themselves from said militia in the future.

So now we're 'good'... we have a powerful military (militia) to protect us from threats abroad, and an armed society to protect us from the very same militia.



If you're reply is that citizens of the US could never defeat the US military, please review again the results in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx23c84obwQ" target="_blank">

[CWSmith]

Our founding fathers, having just beat the British, realized the need for a militia to protect the newly founded country against any another militia that threatened it. Then realized that a militia such as the one from Britain, was a bad thing and it was beaten by armed US citizens. Their answer was that in light of a needed militia to protect itself from foreign threats, the citizens of this country needed the protected right to defend themselves from said militia in the future.

So now we're 'good'... we have a powerful military (militia) to protect us from threats abroad, and an armed society to protect us from the very same militia.

If you're reply is that citizens of the US could never defeat the US military, please review again the results in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

England lost because both they and the states had the same weapons.

We lost in Vietnam because we chose to use essentially the same weapons as the north. Ditto Afghanistan. Again, they are wars we should never have fought, but we lost because we tried to minimize our impact.

The only way a citizen militia defeats the US military is if the US government refuses to bring its true power to bear, and they will probably make exactly that decision. So it will not be a matter of the militia defeating the military as much as the military not wanting to kill Americans.

Here is the basic truth - if we want to preserve our country and defend the Constitution, we need to stop electing politicians who disrespect the Constitution and undermine our right to vote. It's not about guns. It's about electing better politicians.

[John Smith]

Exactly who was to regulate that well regulated militia? How does 'keep' become synonymous with "own"?

Anyone bother to read Art 1, Sect 8 where it refers to said militia? Penn apparently hasn't.

[Ralphie Boy]

“Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”
“The right to own guns shall not be infringed”
”Only a Good Guy with a Gun can stop a bad guy and with a gun”
“More guns make us safer”

I’ve heard all this all my life. Funny, but I don’t feel safer due to the proliferation of high firepower weapons everywhere you go in this country. The current situation is a nightmare, actually.

[Nicholas Carey]

Exactly who was to regulate that well regulated militia? How does 'keep' become synonymous with "own"?

Anyone bother to read Art 1, Sect 8 where it refers to said militia? Penn apparently hasn't.

The [unorganized] militia has always been required to arm themselves.

The [Second] Militia Act of 1792, passed into law 8May 1792 (the first, having to do with the executive's calling out of the militia, having been passed into law a week earlier on 2 May 1792, provided for (1) mandatory conscription, and (2) that the members of the militia arm themselves:

["balls the eighteenth part of a pound" is 18 gauge. An 18-gauge ball is 0.637 inches, so the specification was calibre .64, rather different than a Brown Bess or Charlesville musket at 11-gauge (calibre .75).]

Further, not only did they have to arm themselves, their weapons were exempted from being attached for legal actions for debts, lawsuits, taxes, etc. not unlike the protection afforded by modern bankruptcy law's for "tools of one's trade".

An ACT more effectually to provide for the National Defence, by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States.

I. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act. And it shall at all time hereafter be the duty of every such Captain or Commanding Officer of a company, to enroll every such citizen as aforesaid, and also those who shall, from time to time, arrive at the age of 18 years, or being at the age of 18 years, and under the age of 45 years (except as before excepted) shall come to reside within his bounds; and shall without delay notify such citizen of the said enrollment, by the proper non-commissioned Officer of the company, by whom such notice may be proved. That every citizen, so enrolled and notified, shall, within six months thereafter, provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball; or with a good rifle, knapsack, shot-pouch, and powder-horn, twenty balls suited to the bore of his rifle, and a quarter of a pound of powder; and shall appear so armed, accoutred and provided, when called out to exercise or into service, except, that when called out on company days to exercise only, he may appear without a knapsack. That the commissioned Officers shall severally be armed with a sword or hanger, and espontoon; and that from and after five years from the passing of this Act, all muskets from arming the militia as is herein required, shall be of bores sufficient for balls of the eighteenth part of a pound; and every citizen so enrolled, and providing himself with the arms, ammunition and accoutrements, required as aforesaid, shall hold the same exempted from all suits, distresses, executions or sales, for debt or for the payment of taxes.

[TerryLL]

[Paul Pless]

what drugs is she on?

[John Smith]

The [unorganized] militia has always been required to arm themselves.

The [Second] Militia Act of 1792, passed into law 8May 1792 (the first, having to do with the executive's calling out of the militia, having been passed into law a week earlier on 2 May 1792, provided for (1) mandatory conscription, and (2) that the members of the militia arm themselves:

["balls the eighteenth part of a pound" is 18 gauge. An 18-gauge ball is 0.637 inches, so the specification was calibre .64, rather different than a Brown Bess or Charlesville musket at 11-gauge (calibre .75).]

Further, not only did they have to arm themselves, their weapons were exempted from being attached for legal actions for debts, lawsuits, taxes, etc. not unlike the protection afforded by modern bankruptcy law's for "tools of one's trade".

That's interesting, and can be interpreted a couple of ways. One of those is each person could go to the government's armory and get all those things for free. This would mandate him to do so. I suppose some could buy everything on that list, but I'm not sure how many could afford to buy. This can be construed as drafting everyone into the militia.

I believe it was on a visit to Williamsburg where we visited the armory, and, as I recall, every citizen could go to that armory and get the required weaponry there for free.

[Nicholas Carey]

That's interesting, and can be interpreted a couple of ways. One of those is each person could go to the government's armory and get all those things for free. This would mandate him to do so. I suppose some could buy everything on that list, but I'm not sure how many could afford to buy. This can be construed as drafting everyone into the militia.

I believe it was on a visit to Williamsburg where we visited the armory, and, as I recall, every citizen could go to that armory and get the required weaponry there for free.

Everybody was "drafted". And everybody had to provide their own arms and accoutrements. It wasn't drawn from government stores.

That dates back to [at least] Anglo-Saxon times and the fyrd.

More formally, Henry II's Assize of Arms (1181) imposed the requirement that each man should be armed according to his rank in society.

Edward I's Statute of Winchester (1285) made this more explicit and imposed a requirement that they be produced twice a year for inspection.

And further it is commanded that every man have in his house harness for to to keep the peace after the ancient assize; that is to say, every man between fifteen years of age and sixty years, shall be assessed and sworn to armor according to the quantity of their lands and goods; that is to wit, for fifteen pounds lands, and goods of forty marks, an hauberke, an helm of iron, a lance, a knife, and a horse; and for ten pounds of lands, and twenty marks goods, an hauberke, an helm of iron, a lance, and a knife; and for five pounds of lands, a doublet, an helme of iron, a lance, and a knife; and from forty shillings of land and more up to one hundred shillings, a lance, a bow and arrows, and a knife; and he that hath less than forty shillings yearly shall be sworn to falces, gisarmes, knives, and other small arms; and he that hath less than twenty marks in goods, shall have swords, knives, and other small arms; and all other that may shall have bows and arrows out of the forest, and in the forest bows and pilets. And that view of armor be made every year two times. And in every hundred and franchise two constables shall be chosen to make the view of armor; and the constables aforesaid shall present before justices assigned, when they shall some into the country, such defaults as they shall have found about armor, and of suits, and of watches, and of highways; and also shall present all such as do lodge strangers in uplandish towns, for whom they will not answer. And the justices assigned shall present at every parliament unto the king such defaults as they shall find, and the king shall provide remedy therein. And from henceforth let the sheriffs take good heed, and bailiffs within franchises and without, greater or lesser, that have any bailiwick or forestry in fee or otherwise, that they shall follow the cry with the country, as they are able, having horses and armor so to do; and if there be any that do not, the defaults shall be presented by the constables to the justices assigned, and after them to the king; and the king will provide remedy as before is said. And the king commandeth and forbiddeth that from henceforth neither fairs nor markets be kept in churchyards, for the honor of the church.

The history of an "unorganized militia" is a long one in England. The 2nd amendment didn't just spring up out of the blue.

[LeeG]

fueltruckfun1.jpg

US Army... dragging a JP8 fuel line and nozzle down the Delta Ramp at FOB Fenty (Jalalabad) back around 2013.

Love the troops, having been one before, but they often cracked me up.

I guess it’s a non-sparking nozzle?

[John Smith]

Been thinking about this and have come to the conclusion it's all mute. There are so many guns 'out there' that no legislation of any kind can be expected to do much.

[CWSmith]

^ That defeatist attitude will accomplish nothing.

[TerryLL]

what drugs is she on?

Probably Xanax, because she lives in constant fear of the gas company, her local hooligans, and especially her government, and has no reasonable way to protect herself.

[LeeG]

Been thinking about this and have come to the conclusion it's all mute. There are so many guns 'out there' that no legislation of any kind can be expected to do much.

moot