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Thread: San Fran reparations proposal

  1. #36
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    @Keith

    We compensated Japanese Americans who were unjustly interned during the second world war. There were families in camps who's sons were fighting for the USA in Italy. It took years, but eventually the USA did the right thing.

    I agree that reparations for slavery are a very difficult problem, and maybe not worth trying. But there are many more recent racist policies that damaged people who are alive now. We could compensate for those and it would be just.

    It would also open the door to all sorts of compensation for rapacious cost shifting actions that made the rich richer. That would be good, but it is one of the reasons rich white people oppose reparations of any kind. They might have to pay the people they damaged with leaded gasoline, or cheaply managed freight trains going through Ohio, or other similar stuff.
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    well, to mend the rift between white people, anyway, and bring them together under a banner of fascism.
    You forget the [sarc] [/sarc] codebits there L.W.?
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Hunter View Post
    We compensated Japanese Americans who were unjustly interned during the second world war.
    But isn't the point that we compensated the people who were wrongly treated, not the great-great-great grandchildren of the people who were wronged?

    There really is a difference.
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    One might think this initiative flies under the flag of righteousness and fair play. That's just the cover story.

    In fact, this is just another log in the fire of distraction; another blow on the wedge of divisiveness; stoked and hammered by the one-percent, to keep us occupied with fighting amongst ourselves while they pick our pockets.

    Carry on.

    Kevin
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    But isn't the point that we compensated the people who were wrongly treated, not the great-great-great grandchildren of the people who were wronged?

    There really is a difference.
    Yes, that's true. Are reparations really practical? I don't know. It's complicated for sure.

    On the other hand, the great-great-great grandchildren are still suffering the effects: redlining, less access to home ownership and wealth generation, poor education, etc. Where they are now has grown directly out of a long history of discrimination beginning with violence and slavery.

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    I wonder how many people out there are great-great-great grandchildren of slaves without also being great-great-great grandchildren of slave owners.

    You could probably trace the DNA and figure out precisely which white southern family owes reparations to which descendant of slaves.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    10% of the people in the doomsday book were slaves and that's not including serfs and others that some today claim were slaves.. with intermarriage since then, everyone is a descendant of a slave.
    If you are to pay reparations, shouldn't you deduct modern education, housing, welfare etc from the payments? After all they wouldn't get any of that in a mud hut or an overcrowded city in Africa...
    Just an amateur bodging away..

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    It's a difficult discussion for someone in another country, however recently our government formally apologized for the slavery in the past. The reparations discussion is taken place over here as well.
    One of the descendants of a former slave in Suriname named Anna did a logical? proposal for compensation;
    compensation for unpaid labour for 52 weeks a year, 24 hours a day between 1727 and 1780, for €14,- a hour/VAT included = € 7,8 million.

    Some of the former slave owning families are probably getting a bit worried.

    The discussion continues.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    It's a difficult discussion for someone in another country, however recently our government formally apologized for the slavery in the past. The reparations discussion is taken place over here as well.
    One of the descendants of a former slave in Suriname named Anna did a logical? proposal for compensation;
    compensation for unpaid labour for 52 weeks a year, 24 hours a day between 1727 and 1780, for €14,- a hour/VAT included = € 7,8 million.

    Some of the former slave owning families are probably getting a bit worried.

    The discussion continues.
    Your discussions, and a few others, are paving the way for the rest of us.



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  10. #45
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchpp View Post
    It's a difficult discussion for someone in another country, however recently our government formally apologized for the slavery in the past. The reparations discussion is taken place over here as well.
    One of the descendants of a former slave in Suriname named Anna did a logical? proposal for compensation;
    compensation for unpaid labour for 52 weeks a year, 24 hours a day between 1727 and 1780, for €14,- a hour/VAT included = € 7,8 million.

    Some of the former slave owning families are probably getting a bit worried.

    The discussion continues.
    Your discussions, and a few others, are paving the way for the rest of us. You're testing notions, cultural readiness, and feasibility. Here's hoping you do your work well, and inspire the rest of the world to follow along...



    David G
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yes, that's true. Are reparations really practical? I don't know. It's complicated for sure.

    On the other hand, the great-great-great grandchildren are still suffering the effects: redlining, less access to home ownership and wealth generation, poor education, etc. Where they are now has grown directly out of a long history of discrimination beginning with violence and slavery.

    Tom
    Here's a thorough review of the decades of political considerations and progress toward recognition of Japanese-Americans internees and the reparation negotiation and decision process: https://www.nationalww2museum.org/wa...-incarceration
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yes, that's true. Are reparations really practical? I don't know. It's complicated for sure.

    On the other hand, the great-great-great grandchildren are still suffering the effects: redlining, less access to home ownership and wealth generation, poor education, etc. Where they are now has grown directly out of a long history of discrimination beginning with violence and slavery.
    Practical? Not really. Look at the ongoing pushback against universities' "affirmative action" admissions policies.
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yes, that's true. Are reparations really practical? I don't know. It's complicated for sure.

    On the other hand, the great-great-great grandchildren are still suffering the effects: redlining, less access to home ownership and wealth generation, poor education, etc. Where they are now has grown directly out of a long history of discrimination beginning with violence and slavery.

    Tom
    Here's the way I look at it.

    My maternal grandfather worked on the railroad and my grandmother stayed at home with the kids. They were not wealthy, but they knew that education was important.

    My paternal grandfather walked on crutches his entire life and was orphaned at 16. He supported himself by working in a box factory while going to school and became both a lawyer and a CPA. He was the #2 position at the old Federal Power Commission and argued cases before the Supreme Court. He met his wife when she, too, was working in the box factory. They didn't have money, but he worked hard and studied hard. Dad is a retired dentist and I am a physicist. My success has nothing to do with whether some ancestor years ago owned slaves because any inheritance of wealth was broken generations ago if it existed at all.

    Today, we still live in a racist country. Trump proved that. Black poverty today isn't because of slavery - it's because of ongoing racism that spawns poor wages, that leads to parents who are working too hard to be in the house as much as they want, that leads to poor educations, that leads to poverty for the next generation.

    Give them $5M and it will be gone in 5 years. Pay them what they deserve so they can be home with their kids at night, so they can take back control of their neighborhoods from the gangs, and you will break the cycle of poverty.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Tom let me give you another example. From what I'm reading, farm laborers make only 60% the national average hourly rate.

    If we made up that difference and passed it onto the consumer, it would cost the average household $25/year. That's what I'm reading online.

    Now, how many problems could we solve just by paying them what their labors are worth? And if we INSIST that any farm products brought into this country from Mexico were the result of laborers paid the same, would we still have a border problem?

    The solution to the present is in the future, not the past.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    One might think this initiative flies under the flag of righteousness and fair play. That's just the cover story.

    In fact, this is just another log in the fire of distraction; another blow on the wedge of divisiveness; stoked and hammered by the one-percent, to keep us occupied with fighting amongst ourselves while they pick our pockets.

    Carry on.

    Kevin

    I agree. There are people out there whose stock in trade is divisiveness. Politicians, media talking heads, celebrities, community agitators, etc. They like to group people together and turn the groups against each other. Race is one of their favorite tools. Personally, I don’t think reparations based on race is workable. And if it was it would be a bad idea. If we are going to do something to give people a leg up because they need it through no fault of their own, why should we single out a certain race to benefit? Go back a few generations and pretty much every group of immigrants who arrived here had their challenges to face. I don’t believe that current racial discrimination and preferences are a fix for historical racial discrimination and preferences. The San Fran proposal is ridiculous.


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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I wonder how many people out there are great-great-great grandchildren of slaves without also being great-great-great grandchildren of slave owners.

    You could probably trace the DNA and figure out precisely which white southern family owes reparations to which descendant of slaves.
    Absolutely! Go get that family, and make them pay reparations.

    Oh crap... they are dead.

    Nevermind.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  17. #52
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    The more Liberals separate today's races, based on crap like this, the more they expand their power and separate us all.

    How much better would it be to treat everyone the same?

    Here's my one example, for all of you to trash... I was standing in the cue at a London McDonalds (I know... the horror) and behind me was an English lady talking on her mobile (mobile, not cell, for the uneducated Americans) phone. Maybe a minute of so later, I looked towards her direction, and was amazed to see she was African-British!!!

    No way... in my most racist thought... she had to be 'white' because she sounded white. But nope, she was just a normal black woman in Britain.

    We don't need diversity in the US, we need to come together and be one people. Liberals won't hear of it.
    “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”― Mark Twain,


  18. #53
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Worse than slavery was the genocide of the native population.


  19. #54
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    I wonder how many people out there are great-great-great grandchildren of slaves without also being great-great-great grandchildren of slave owners.

    You could probably trace the DNA and figure out precisely which white southern family owes reparations to which descendant of slaves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dikhaut View Post
    I agree. There are people out there whose stock in trade is divisiveness. Politicians, media talking heads, celebrities, community agitators, etc. They like to group people together and turn the groups against each other. Race is one of their favorite tools. Personally, I don’t think reparations based on race is workable. And if it was it would be a bad idea. If we are going to do something to give people a leg up because they need it through no fault of their own, why should we single out a certain race to benefit? Go back a few generations and pretty much every group of immigrants who arrived here had their challenges to face. I don’t believe that current racial discrimination and preferences are a fix for historical racial discrimination and preferences. The San Fran proposal is ridiculous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Absolutely! Go get that family, and make them pay reparations.

    Oh crap... they are dead.

    Nevermind.
    These are the people... their voices and their arguments at any rate... who have argued against every unproven effort to improve society and right injustices. The 'Oh THAT will never work' gang. Because they can't wrap their minds around the process or the possible solutions... and because they are fearful that any might somehow come out of their hides... they want everyone to just dismiss the notion.

    Even though reparations to Japanese for being unjustly incarcerated (see #46) were a far less fraught, complex, and costly situation... those same voices were heard throughout the land. Loudly and frequently. Fervently, even. Luckily, there were enough clear thinking, far-sighted people to make it happen in spite of the regressive urges.

    Denial... it ain't just a river in Egypt...
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    David G
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    These are the people... their voices and their arguments at any rate... who have argued against every unproven effort to improve society and right injustices. The 'Oh THAT will never work' gang.
    Come on. I support more radical "unproven efforts to improve society" than most people. Universal minimum income, health care, and K-12-college education. 30 x 30 and nature needs half.

    I just think this particular proposal is biased and unworkable in practice.

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Give them $5M and it will be gone in 5 years. Pay them what they deserve so they can be home with their kids at night, so they can take back control of their neighborhoods from the gangs, and you will break the cycle of poverty.
    That's the last thing the 1%, or likely the 10% would want. The stratification is important to their own status, and the prospects of their descendants.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Come on. I support more radical "unproven efforts to improve society" than most people. Universal minimum income, health care, and K-12-college education. 30 x 30 and nature needs half.

    I just think this particular proposal is biased and unworkable in practice.
    I'm perfectly willing to believe I was mistaken to include you in that list.

    Think of the SF proposal as a 'first draft'. Now... how would you improve it? Or comment on the Dutch conversations. Or, like me, decide it's too complex for one not steeped in the subjet to noodle with? Do you dismiss the concept, or just that iteration of it?
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    I support George's list but don't see just that as attacking systemic racism in the USA. This can be understood more clearly in the simpler model of college admissions that consider race versus trying to get to racial balance by consideration of socio-economic status, not race.

    See: https://www.ets.org/Media/Research/p...hite_paper.pdf

    Just as no mortgage is canceled by death of the human debtor, so our racial original sin is not forgiven by the passage of years, decades, centuries. We need at least shift some ballast to counter our list toward concentrations of opportunity and wealth into fewer white hands.

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Do you dismiss the concept, or just that iteration of it?

    Like I said, conceptually it is problematic. The past is full of sins. Most victims are long gone. Descendants are scattered and intermarried.

    This iteration is particularly bad. Addresses only one group, in one place, and therefore discriminates against all others.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    The only fair solution is to give people of color 2 white people of breeding age of their choice for a life of unconditional servitude. A commission of drag queens appointed for will oversee the the 100 year program.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 03-19-2023 at 12:56 PM.
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Like I said, conceptually it is problematic. The past is full of sins. Most victims are long gone. Descendants are scattered and intermarried.

    This iteration is particularly bad. Addresses only one group, in one place, and therefore discriminates against all others.
    a lot like a one-time student loan cancellation. fixes nothing systemic. guaranteed to piss people off.

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    a lot like a one-time student loan cancellation. fixes nothing systemic. guaranteed to piss people off.
    should those whose student loans weren't cancelled be upset that svb's largest depositors are all getting their venture capital back?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    a lot like a one-time student loan cancellation. fixes nothing systemic. guaranteed to piss people off.

    I have always viewed the student loan forgiveness proposal as a political stunt. Biden and the Dems knew it would never fly, but it was timed so they could throw shade on political opponents who opposed it, blaming them for keeping the lid on the cookie jar. As you say, it would not solve any problems. And it would create or contribute to other problems, e.g. inflation.


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  30. #65
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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    I think the US was on the right track. When most of us were young the US had actual institutional racism - racial laws and policies. It has been trying to fix it since then:

    Equal civil rights - much improvement, but voting still needs to be made universally easy, and gerrymandering eliminated

    Equal education - much improvement, keep going

    Equal health - obviously a long way to go in the US, but not just for blacks

    Obviously, these things take generations to have an effect. Starting from a hypothetical uneducated family in poor health, you need at least two generations for the full effect of even the best policies to manifest. But it was working. You started to see blacks in the US break through every kind of glass ceiling, up to the highest (Obama). Today's US is much less racist and segregated than the US of the 1980s I first saw in person. Things were moving in the right direction, and could be accelerated.

    Then the good people of the US seem to have lost patience, and turned to things like "fighting institutional racism", reparations, and other half-baked ideas, which in my opinion generate opposition and consume energy without making tangible progress.

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Dikhaut View Post
    I have always viewed the student loan forgiveness proposal as a political stunt. Biden and the Dems knew it would never fly, but it was timed so they could throw shade on political opponents who opposed it, blaming them for keeping the lid on the cookie jar. As you say, it would not solve any problems. And it would create or contribute to other problems, e.g. inflation.


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    Yes, it's in the same bucket as reparations and headed for the out house.

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    should those whose student loans weren't cancelled be upset that svb's largest depositors are all getting their venture capital back?
    No, no! Money to the wealthy = good. Money to anyone else = bad.

    Because, Freedom!

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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    should those whose student loans weren't cancelled be upset that svb's largest depositors are all getting their venture capital back?
    if that’s what happens, yeah, we should all be upset.

    now, do you think that reparations for slavery are the same as a tax cut?

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    Default San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    No, no! Money to the wealthy = good. Money to anyone else = bad.

    Because, Freedom!

    Tom

    It seems that SVB has some Dem political ties that enabled them to get a bailout. The one and only Barney Frank, of Dodd-Frank fame no less, is on their Board of Directors. Lots of big $ Dem donors with lots of money in that bank. I hope this all gets looked into further.


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    Default Re: San Fran reparations proposal

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    if that’s what happens, yeah, we should all be upset.

    now, do you think that reparations for slavery are the same as a tax cut?
    get ready to be upset, svb is getting a full bailout, not just the insured depositors of up to $250k

    shareholders, stakeholders, even individuals nd institutions with lines of credit through svb are having those protected
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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