Derailing Safety

[David G]

Another example of the need for more regulation... not less --


Trains keep derailing all over the country, including Thursday in Alabama. What's going on?


Introduced on March 1, the Bipartisan Railway Safety Act of 2023 aims to increase train safety while ensuring communities get the help they need to deal with hazardous materials spills when they happen. President Joe Biden has already endorsed the legislation.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...a/11435462002/

[George Jung]

I didn't see a mention - that President Obama had increased safety measures/mandated better brakes, but - the 'industry' lobbied ($7 million) trump, who rescinded the regulations. I know it's surprising - but damn near everything the republicans touch, turns to crap.

[CWSmith]

^ I didn't know that, but I can't say that I'm surprised.

[AlanMc]

I didn't see a mention - that President Obama had increased safety measures/mandated better brakes, but - the 'industry' lobbied ($7 million) trump, who rescinded the regulations. I know it's surprising - but damn near everything the republicans touch, turns to crap.

yes but

"However, even if this safety rule had still been in effect, it would not have applied to the Norfolk Southern train that derailed in East Palestine, because it was not categorized as a high-hazard cargo train.Although the Norfolk Southern train contained hazardous materials, including vinyl chloride, it did not meet the Department of Transportation’s narrow definition of a high-hazard flammable unit train in that it didn’t have at least 70 cars containing flammable materials, such as crude oil or ethanol. The chemicals it was carrying fall into a different classification not included in this definition."

[CWSmith]

I used to think, and I still think, that we should be investing in rail because it is a more economical and far safer way to transport goods across the country than is long-distance trucking.

That said, I also think that rail is being run like coal - an outdated technology whose time is past if they don't invest in whatever is required to make it safe for society. (Coal probably can't.)

[George Jung]

Yes - exactly. And any progression towards a safer transport is vigorously opposed by 'the industry', and folks like post #4. Rather like regulating guns - 'if it doesn't totally eliminate all the problems, what use is it?'

DSE

[Chip-skiff]

Another example of how profit-mad business school grads have ruined entire industries. They delight in squeezing safety regs, torturing workers, lowering product standards, and lying their asses off, all to boost profits and enable bonuses for themselves, along with higher dividends, stock buybacks, etc.

[Paul Pless]

I didn't see a mention - that President Obama had increased safety measures/mandated better brakes, but - the 'industry' lobbied ($7 million) trump, who rescinded the regulations. I know it's surprising - but damn near everything the republicans touch, turns to crap.

he had to do something

what with denying the building of exponentially safer pipelines

[George Jung]

you talking Obama?

I was very much against the canadian Keystone XL pipeline. Not because of safety issues (though there is that) - but because it was a DSE thing to do, sending abrasive tarsends to Texas, for processing and shipment to China.

Put the pipelines in - where appropriate, and not for 'anything for a buck $'. Engineer the damn things so they are impervious to any/all challenges over waterways, aquifers etc. Do it right.

[CWSmith]

^ Yes, the pipeline was about profit and nothing more. Meanwhile, the people who vote for it vote against renewable energy.

[woodpile]

What you get when a check in the box runs US transportation.

[bluedog225]

Ffs. They just bent over the rail workers. What did they expect?

[George Jung]

Seemingly implying this was 'purposeful'?

[bluedog225]

I imagine the guys are a little pissed. And safety may not be front and center.

[David G]

Ffs. They just bent over the rail workers. What did they expect?

Unless you have something to support that, it seems an irresponsible sort of semi-slander.

[robm]

abrasive tarsends

Hey! Canadian dilbit is a lot of things, most of them stupid, but it isn't abrasive. All the sand winds up in tailing ponds, ready to dump the residual hydrocarbons into the nearest river as soon as it floods.

Dilbit is essentially bitumen (tar) with paint thinner added, to make it easy to pump. Approx. 60% paint thinner.

[Nicholas Carey]

Hey! Canadian dilbit is a lot of things, most of them stupid, but it isn't abrasive. All the sand winds up in tailing ponds, ready to dump the residual hydrocarbons into the nearest river as soon as it floods.

Dilbit is essentially bitumen (tar) with paint thinner added, to make it easy to pump. Approx. 60% paint thinner.

What I love are the numbers for tar sands. Which are poor.

Normal crude oil returns roughly 25 times the energy used to extract it.

Surface mined tar sands "oil" comes in at just 5:1.

Deep tar sands, mined with steam injection, is just 2.9:1.

https://insideclimatenews.org/news/1...ilbit-bitumen/

Oil Sands Mining Uses Up Almost as Much Energy as It Produces

The average “energy returned on investment,” or EROI, for conventional oil is roughly 25:1. In other words, 25 units of oil-based energy are obtained for every one unit of other energy that is invested to extract it.

But tar sands oil is in a category all its own.

Tar sands retrieved by surface mining has an EROI of only about 5:1, according to research released Tuesday. Tar sands retrieved from deeper beneath the earth, through steam injection, fares even worse, with a maximum average ratio of just 2.9 to 1. That means one unit of natural gas is needed to create less than three units of oil-based energy.

[continued]

[bluedog225]

Huh? Biden signed legislation blocking a strike. Pay attention. Semi-slander….snort

[David G]

Huh? Biden signed legislation blocking a strike. Pay attention. Semi-slander….snort

As Mr. Jung mentioned, your comment made it sound as if it were a deliberate thing from the union members - without coming right out and saying it. Your vagueness was deliberate? It was why I said 'semi'...

[Garret]

I'm surprised that there on the WBF folks aren't more aware of history. The railroad industry in the US (can't speak to other countries) has been cutting corners, ignoring worker & citizen safety, & making owners & investors rich since they started. They have 150+ years of experience at just who & how much to pay off - oops contribute to - and have it pretty much down to a science. Why is everyone acting so surprised?

Blaming it on the rail workers makes no sense at all.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Why is it "surprising"? Republican policies are crap. Stuffing pockets of the wealthy with more cash is their only economic policy.

I didn't see a mention - that President Obama had increased safety measures/mandated better brakes, but - the 'industry' lobbied ($7 million) trump, who rescinded the regulations. I know it's surprising - but damn near everything the republicans touch, turns to crap.

[dutchpp]

I took a look at the (maintenance) investments of the Dutch rail system, the safety performance of the system is pretty good.
The total length of the Dutch rail system is approximately 3400 km's, filled with very high frequency train traffic, so that part is possibly not comparable with larger parts of the US situation.
Every year approximately €1,2 billion is invested in maintenance and improvements that's approximately €350.000,- yearly for every km of track, which is a substantial investment.
I wonder what the investments are in the US?

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Simple derailments should never happen. It’s that simple.

In Britain the permanent way upkeep and maintenance functions were re- nationalised pretty quickly.

[Garret]

Huh? Biden signed legislation blocking a strike. Pay attention. Semi-slander….snort

As Mr. Jung mentioned, your comment made it sound as if it were a deliberate thing from the union members - without coming right out and saying it. Your vagueness was deliberate? It was why I said 'semi'...

Biden did sign a bill blocking the strike - as it came under averting a national calamity or whatever they call it.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/bid...ke-2022-12-02/

WASHINGTON, Dec 2 (Reuters) - President Joe Biden signed legislation Friday to block a national U.S. railroad strike that could have devastated the American economy.

The U.S. Senate voted 80 to 15 on Thursday to impose a tentative contract deal reached in September on a dozen unions representing 115,000 workers, who could have gone on strike on Dec. 9. But the Senate failed to approve a measure that would have provided paid sick days to railroad workers.

"It was tough for me but it was the right thing to do at the moment -- save jobs, to protect millions of working families from harm and disruption and to keep supply chains stable around the holidays," Biden said, adding the deal avoided "an economic catastrophe."

Eight of 12 unions had ratified the deal. But some labor leaders have criticized Biden, a self-described friend of labor, for asking Congress to impose a contract that workers in four unions have rejected over its lack of paid sick leave.

While I get why he did it, serious work needs to be done to improve things for rail workers as well as reinstating the safety stuff Trump removed + add more.

[George Jung]

Yep. But BD lives in Texas - they 'think' differently there....

I'd be curious if anyone has any info on comparisons of maintenance in the US vs europe. My suspicion - there's a huuuge void.

[LeeG]

Hey! Canadian dilbit is a lot of things, most of them stupid, but it isn't abrasive. All the sand winds up in tailing ponds, ready to dump the residual hydrocarbons into the nearest river as soon as it floods.

Dilbit is essentially bitumen (tar) with paint thinner added, to make it easy to pump. Approx. 60% paint thinner.

what’s really impressive is how much natural gas is consumed in producing dilbit.

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-an...tural-gas.html

The primary use for natural gas in Canada is space heating. However, Canada’s oil sands are also large consumers of natural gas. In 2018, oil sands gas consumption was 30% of total natural gas use in Canada.

Oil sands operators use natural gas for thermal, in situ production (steam-assisted gravity drainage (SAGD) and cyclic steam stimulation (CSS)). Producers burn natural gas to generate steam, which heats underground reservoirs and the bitumen inside, becomes less viscous and can flow to the surface more easily.

The oil sands mining process also uses natural gas as fuel to create steam to separate bitumen from sand. The oil sands upgrading process uses natural gas to convert bitumen to synthetic crude oil (upgraded bitumen). Steam generated from burning natural gas at large oil sands facilities may also pass through a turbine first to generate electricity in a process called cogeneration. The facility can then use this electricity on site and sell excess electricity to other markets.

[mikefrommontana]

The Obama regs were aimed at oil unit trains that originated in the Bakken and the Canadian tar sands. The idea was for electro-pneumatic brakes, which would allow faster stopping and less slack action. The technology would not apply to East Palestine because it was a general freight train of mixed car types (not all tank cars). The true source of the wreck was a burned off bearing that had been reported to 911 in various municipalities and which had gone past an inoperative failed equipment detector (hot box detector). Another contributing problem was that the train was 9000 feet long--part of the mega train movement that has accompanied "Precision Scheduled Railroading". All in the quest to get the vaunted gross operating ratio another point or two down (right now in the 60's, historically it's been in the mid to high 80's or more). As mentioned above, Wall Street knows how to ruin industry.

[Nicholas Carey]

what’s really impressive is how much natural gas is consumed in producing dilbit.

Natural gas is the diluent in dilbit. The hydrogen in the NG bonds/reacts with carp in the bitumen. That liquifies it enough that it can be pumped and processed. The article I linked to earlier says dilbit is something like 60% natural gas.

[sp_clark]

what’s really impressive is how much natural gas is consumed in producing dilbit.

I'd have to believe that once dilbit reaches a refinery that the liquifying NG is recaptured /used in the refining process or 'refined' into another marketable product. Not being a petrochemist I'll maintain that thinking until an alternative explanation becomes evident.

[David G]

I'm surprised that there on the WBF folks aren't more aware of history. The railroad industry in the US (can't speak to other countries) has been cutting corners, ignoring worker & citizen safety, & making owners & investors rich since they started. They have 150+ years of experience at just who & how much to pay off - oops contribute to - and have it pretty much down to a science. Why is everyone acting so surprised?

Blaming it on the rail workers makes no sense at all.

Correct. No sense. When, as you mention, there are far more likely explanations extant. Slimy, in fact.

[LeeG]

I'd have to believe that once dilbit reaches a refinery that the liquifying NG is recaptured /used in the refining process or 'refined' into another marketable product. Not being a petrochemist I'll maintain that thinking until an alternative explanation becomes evident.

Burning natural gas is the main energy source for extracting tar sands. I don’t know but suspect it’s a far larger amount than NG used to create diluent. When that NG is burned it’s out the tailpipe into that vast atmospheric septic tank.

[robm]

Normal crude oil returns roughly 25 times the energy used to extract it.

Surface mined tar sands "oil" comes in at just 5:1.

Deep tar sands, mined with steam injection, is just 2.9:1.

Which is why the oil companies of Canada are always whining about not being able to make enough money. It costs about $30 Canadian per barrel, and it only worth about $60 US, so they make only (!) about double on a barrel of oil. A barrel of Arabian crude costs about $10/bbl to get out of the ground and make ready to sell, and is worth $80. All figures are quite vague, +/- a bunch.

And it is natural gas condensate (NGC) that is used as diluent in the dilbit, stuff with 4 -5- 6 carbon atoms that is stripped out of raw natural gas because it is or forms a liquid easily (which is why I called it paint thinner, it would be great for cleaning brushes), not liquified natural gas. Natural gas that gets put in a pipeline is pretty much pure CH4, methane. It takes a lot of compression and refrigeration to turn it into LNG.

One pipeline that was proposed for the area I live in (northern BC) was to be a double: 36" for dilbit heading overseas, and 20" for NGC heading to Alberta to make more dilbit. It got canned.

[bluedog225]

Investing in rail workers is investing in the rail system, and rail safety. Screwing them undermines both.

[woodpile]

Why is it "surprising"? Republican policies are crap. Stuffing pockets of the wealthy with more cash is their only economic policy.

Stuffing pockets of the wealthy? you mean like bailing out a bunch of millionaires at SVC?

[George Jung]

Hey! Canadian dilbit is a lot of things, most of them stupid, but it isn't abrasive. All the sand winds up in tailing ponds, ready to dump the residual hydrocarbons into the nearest river as soon as it floods.

Dilbit is essentially bitumen (tar) with paint thinner added, to make it easy to pump. Approx. 60% paint thinner.

not sure where you got your info - everything I've read would disagree with you. Very abrasive. Hard on the equipment. Just the sort of stuff you don't want to send through a pipeline, unless you're polishing it.

http://www.history.alberta.ca/energy...oil-sands.aspx