Flying a mirror 14 sail from a sprit?

[Colorifics]

Okay. i'm actually Toxophilite a pestiferous member who likes little boats, i'm away from home and i forgot my password and my the email on my profile is my old defunct email, so I can't reset it.

Anyway I have a Gartside 13012' clinker dinghy that I like to fly small jibs from a small removable sprit. It works well. I am up in Gibsons BC working and at the boaters exchange here there's a mirror 14 sail that has the right dimension to be a drifter for light airs. The only thing is it has a wire luff. Is this overkill for a small jib to fly in light airs?

I plan to ditch this profile after I get home. The profile name is my band name. No dreadlock moisturizer was harmed in this posting

[auscruisertom]

The only problem I see while using the jib in light airs should the wire be kinky the sail may not set to your liking.

I have added a jib plus a carbon fibre bowsprite with two stays on “Jim” an 18 ‘lug rigged canoe yawl in order to be more competitive .

[Colorifics]

I was wondering if I could get it snug enough on my little un-stayed mast, All my other foresails have rope luffs. I guess I could change it to a rope luff.

The only problem I see while using the jib in light airs should the wire be kinky the sail may not set to your liking.

I have added a jib plus a carbon fibre bowsprite with two stays on “Jim” an 18 ‘lug rigged canoe yawl in order to be more competitive .

[John Meachen]

I was wondering if I could get it snug enough on my little un-stayed mast, All my other foresails have rope luffs. I guess I could change it to a rope luff.

I don't see any gain from doing the work as being likely.The luff will sag in both instances.The main challenge I could imagine would be establishing a good sheeting position for the additional sail,where would you site a fairlead or turning block?

[Colorifics]

I was running an old laser 2 sized jib before before it blew up from old age. I had loops of rope through my gunwales that did the trick fort correct sheeting angle.

I don't see any gain from doing the work as being likely.The luff will sag in both instances.The main challenge I could imagine would be establishing a good sheeting position for the additional sail,where would you site a fairlead or turning block?

[Todd Bradshaw]

It really shouldn't matter, as in either case you want the jib luff as tight as possible with as little sag as possible. The jib should have been cut to allow for some sag, which is impossible to remove. Flying a jib with no shrouds to maintain consistent luff tension and control luff sag is not a great idea from a performance standpoint, but at least when the mainsheet is under good tension that will help some.

[Colorifics]

It's nice being a junior member again. I feel younger!
Tthanks very much as usual
I had a closer look at the sail today.
The wire luff lives in a loose-ish seam, at one end the wire's eye is shackled to the corner grommet (I think it was at the tack)

One could remove it and rope it if that was a useful or advantageous. You pull a 1/4" or lighter line through it with some heavy thread or string
Which of course begs the question does a flying jib usually have a re-enforced luff of some type (rope, wire) Though this has a wire luff I'm not sure if that was how it was used. It could've been altered for a little furler.

Interestingly it looks to me like this sails leech was recut. There is no hem on the leech, except in the corners where there is about 12-16", the rest is clearly cut with a hot knife which makes me think it's been altered. The corners look unaltered, perhaps it was hollowed for some reason. I will have to go back and lay it out and see. Otherwise it looks okay. The fellow wants $40 for it . Well he wanted $65. I offered 40 which he accepted too readily dammit.
Made in England as one would except for an older mirror and happily red, though lighter of course.

[robm]

Don't change the luff wire for rope. It will just sag more.

[Todd Bradshaw]

That's a pretty hack way to re-cut a leech which tends to flap or "motorboat". No sailmaker worth his palm would leave a hot-cut edge bare on a sail. You would be wise to wrap a 1"-1.5" strip of Dacron over the edge and sew it down. Other than making the sail easier to fold (which can be a factor if it has a wire luff) pulling the wire and replacing it with a rope isn't going to improve much and the rope needs to be slightly shorter as it will stretch in use. The fabric is going to be cut on a bias along the luff, which has a lot of potential for stretch and distortion (permanent) so you do need something to prevent that - wire, rope made a little short, and if the sail is small enough you could maybe do it with just a couple layers of 4 oz. luff tape folded over the edge and no additional reinforcement. That would also be easy to fold. Normal procedure would be to fold and baste a piece of 2" Dacron luff tape, then fold and baste a wider layer over the first piece. Give the whole thing a couple rows of zig-zag and you're good to go.

Normally, unless you have a separate jib cloth downhaul, (which isn't going to do much of anything on a little jib) a wire luff will be connected at both ends of the luff something similar to this one.

DSCF0006.jpg

Here are a couple of little jibs with no wire or roping in the luffs, just doubled up strips of luff tape. It works fine, as long as the sail is small.

Jibs.jpg

[Colorifics]

Thanks again

The sail is approx. 12' luff. 11.5' leech 5.5' foot
yeah i looked at the leech and thought " WRONG! needs a hem!" the edge has a few small (2-3 mm ) tears beginning which is what one would expect.
I was thinking of putting in, even a `1/4" hem to help save the edge. I'll see if I have enough tape. I'd have to make in a 2-3 pieces probably

The luff wire adds about 2" either end and is only shackled to one corner, no lashing. Not as snug and neat looking as yours

There's a smaller (8 ' 7' by 5') nicely made nave blue jib that has just a few hanks on the luff, which is somewhat re-enforced with a wide seam with 3 lines of zig sag, nice sewn in corner rings also $40

[John Meachen]

I haven't seen a jib with a heat sealed leech since the early 1980's.They tend to last quite well as long as you take a hot knife to any straggly threads soon after discovering them.Obviously,they don't appreciate being left flogging while you fumble with other things.I would hope the tack of the jib has a sailmaker's thimble,rather than the normal type ,as the closed form makes it easier to apply a sound lashing.The lashing may need some experimenting to arrive at the optimal jib shape for all round use but as Todd posted, with limited luff tension you won't get perfection.

[Toxophilite]

Here they are. Humourous how bright they look next to the tanbark. Not exactly a match...
The red one is Holt sails made in England

[Toxophilite]

2 very different sails the blue one is basically a right and triangle and has some wavy stitching though it has a sailmakers logo that's a kind of Star Trek logo shape with an 'R' in it
And there's 2 Grommets at the red ones tack.
I think about 20 and 30 sq feet

[Todd Bradshaw]

That second tack grommet is a cloth downhaul. Theoretically it allows you to increase or decrease tension on the sail's luff and flatten it a bit, or increase draft a bit as the cloth slides on the wire. Sometimes they are used on boats where the wire in the jib becomes the working headstay, tensioned until the other headstay goes slack and is left that way, or occasionally with no other wire up front. To get any benefit out of it you pretty much have to have shrouds or a backstay that the jib wire can pull against. My Star boat had one, along with both shrouds and dual running backstays. There was enough other stuff to mess with on that boat that the jib luff shape was kind of low priority. Given the choice, I would much rather see real foot broadseams used to shape the foot rather than those darts, but for the price, they should work.

[John Meachen]

The blue sail is by Rockall.

[Toxophilite]

Ahh, Thanks. I'll look them up for fun.


Hey is it fine if I'm going to add a little tape to the luff of the sail, to do it ina few pieces, overlapped maybe 1/2" I have nothing that long and no dedicated luff tape. I probably have to do it in 3-4 pieces.

[Toxophilite]

Looks better than imagined on the boat. Almost matches the fire red of the brightsides 'bottom paint' and my Canadian naval ensign

Seems to work quite well. It was 8-12 knts gusting up to 16 (according to the local wind reports(my anemometer's batteries are dead) and I could point quite well and was going very fast. I'm in a slightly sheltered spot so I could poke my nose out in the windier/wavier conditions, test the sheeting angle then go back, heave to, and tweak it. I might make it switchable for downwind because the good sheeting angle for upwind is of course farther forward and narrower so not as great for downwind

[Toxophilite]

Mr. Bradshaw
For 'taping' up the leech. Does it require extra thickness/strength or is the intention primarily to keep the edge from unravelling/tearing?

I'm only asking because I happen to have the red edge tape from an old spinnaker that's a perfect colour match that would accomplish the latter, while remaining relatively light.

If beefing it up is a consideration I do have some tanbark I can cut some one inch strips out of and it wouldn't look too bad.

[Todd Bradshaw]

It's a combination of general wear and tear protection and keeping the leech from stretching - at which point it would start to flap or flutter badly which is really annoying. Given the option, I would really prefer Dacron sailcloth for the job due to less stretch.

[Toxophilite]

Cool and much thanks as always. I have some 1" wide pieces cut out and creased.

I had it out yesterday for a brief sail as is and the leech was fluttering. I was thinking it was sheeting angle as I could pull down on the sheet a little right at the clew and the fluttering would abate

[Hwyl]

I agree with John M, that it was not unusual to have a hot knife cut leach, back in the 70's and 80's, my GP14 jib was like that.
The Mirror 14 AKA the Miracle,became an enthusiastic racing class. I'm sure the buyers thought that the sails were essentially disposable.
Jack Holt was the designer, but he supplied chandelry items for his designs. I'd guess your sail is 50 years old.


Looks great BTW, has Paul Gartside seen the pictures?

[Toxophilite]

I contacted him when I was doing some restoration. He very nicely supplied a light scan of some of the plans. Haven't sent him anything recent. Maybe I will.
He understandably wasn't keen on the original black topsides, which I kept.

The Mirror sail seems to be in decent condition. It's still younger than I am. I tried folding and ripping it surreptitiously prior to purchasing...sounds underhanded but I figured if it was that sun rotten it should be being sold anyway. Neither of the two sails I purchased has that chalky feel that rotted sails get.

I bought a similar sized white jib (bigger foot) last year for $10 and it had been used as a sunscreen (grrr). Lasted 2 sails in lightish winds before it started to come apart.

I thought the Mirror 14 was also known as the Marrauder and that the Miracle was between it and the mirror? Wrong?

I agree with John M, that it was not unusual to have a hot knife cut leach, back in the 70's and 80's, my GP14 jib was like that.
The Mirror 14 AKA the Miracle,became an enthusiastic racing class. I'm sure the buyers thought that the sails were essentially disposable.
Jack Holt was the designer, but he supplied chandelry items for his designs. I'd guess your sail is 50 years old.


Looks great BTW, has Paul Gartside seen the pictures?

[Hwyl]

You are correct....Marauder it is.

[stromborg]

Nice picture!
I applaud your willingness to experiment. Looking at the amount of luff sag in not particularly windy looking conditions I wonder if adding a couple of shrouds to give your mast some support might be an idea worth pursuing? Something for the jib to pull against. Considering the mast was designed for a balanced lug rig I would be looking at the extra, unanticipated loads on the step and partners. Might be fine, might not, hard to say without looking at the boat. I know when I finally got my rig tuned up enough to stop the forestay from flopping around it helped the set of my jib immensely.

[Toxophilite]

Probably around 8-10 knots at that point. That would be the top end of the wind I would use a foresail this size in . I have a couple of smaller ones (one is quite tiny), and of course, just the main.
If I have to do any reefing I probably won't be flying a jib or at the most the really small one I have

Most of them have some sag in the luff as I don't crank it down really hard because of the forces involved (Unstayed (but very stout) sprit and mast) My sheets are 1/8" double braid. With this sail I pull them normally. With the little sails I can pretty well adjust them with my fingers.

As you can see I have an embarrassment of little foresails. Most of which I made for my Shellback dinghy, hacked up old gift sails, and not necessarily done that well as to shape.
The blue and red one are the most recent ones and professionally made
The one one top is a cut down little jib that was professionally made.
The other two white ones were cut out of a terylene drifter a fellow gave me.
I had a little asymetrical gennaker too that I had cut down from an old laser spinnaker.
IMG_5563.jpg
Fun stuff to play with

[Toxophilite]

I only know that because I was looking up the mirror 14 in the last week. Precious little information online actually

You are correct....Marauder it is.

[Toxophilite]

I have a question or two for Mr. Bradshaw if he has a moment.

Regarding my blue jib (above) that needs luff reenforcement. (I was trying it in some light airs and it set very nicely, in stronger breezes it sagged a lot)
You were talking about added tape to the luff if the sail was small. This sail might be a little big for that and I don't have any blue sailcloth. I do have some white.What I was going to ask is:
Can I hand stitch some poly rope to the luff (and around the corners about a foot)?

Also I was reading a post of yours regarding a jib on an unstayed canoe mast.
You said;
"It is also questionable whether or not you will actually gain much by having a jib when it has no shrouds to keep the luff tight. You are often going to experience a lot of luff sag, at which point the extra unwanted draft is likely to contribute more unwanted heeling force than sail power."

This got me think that I might be wasting my time with foresails , particularly in any sort of a breeze (I realize people like me with the bit between their teeth will often not listen to reason and need to figure things out themselves)

When I first sailed the Gartside (no headsails) I was in less protected, often lumpier waters and I did some relatively mighty sails in a variety of conditions (some quite windy, easily hitting and slightly exceeding hull speed) and wasn't nervous as the boat seemed to like the conditions

Now sailing in more protected waters with headsails on a sprit I found myself more wary, and I think it's because the boat is so much more tender(see above quote of yours haha)

Certainly I move a lot better in light airs with headsails, Often at least a knot difference, but in anything over 8 knots it's way more comfortable just to have the main up.

Also in any sort of a breeze it's impossible to get a straight taut luff regardless.

My conclusion is to only use the foresails in quite light airs when I don't feel like rowing. Or to ditch the whole schnozzle altogether despite how much fun all the tinkering and experimenting has been.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Yes, poly rope would most likely work sewn to the luff, but it has very limited stretch, which might make the application a bit tricky. Normally, roping is done with Dacron, which has a certain amount of stretch. The objective is to end up with a situation where when the rope is in use under reasonably high tension, the cloth will be pulled free of any wrinkles along the luff. During the hand sewing process the rope is purposely "bent", so you are sewing the cloth onto either an inside curve of rope, or an outside curve. One will add a little slack to the way the rope and cloth match up and the other will remove slack. Getting good at it takes a lot of practice and familiarity with the specific materials used. Most of us (myself included) don't get enough opportunity to do it to get good at it. With poly rope you would want the sail's luff stretched fairly tightly and smooth from the sewing because the rope isn't likely to stretch much at all in use.

I suppose the other option would be to use the hanks on that blue jib and add a free luff rope. Put an eye at both the top and bottom of the rope and connect the head and tack corners of the sail to the eyes with small lashings. That way the luff tension could be adjusted as needed.

Your suspicion that the jib may be helpful in light air and not helpful in heavy air may be correct. The difference in available jib luff tension and the difference in the jib's draft will likely be all over the place as mainsheet tension goes through dramatic changes on different points of sail. With nothing else to pull back on the masthead and keep the jib luff tension up, that's not going to be a great situation.